Poll of the Day > Apparently in the boardgame community, nothing is hated more than dice games.

(+) Yeah! (+)

It seems that it's hated because there's usually no skill involve, that the game is "on rails" and it's all luck based.

Source for that claim? Sounds like a gross generalization.

I am an avid board game player and I don't think that is really true. Roll and writes are very popular for example. There are a lot of people that don't like dice rolls that determine success or failure in some board games without a way to help mitigate bad rolls.

Also, dice drafting is a pretty popular game mechanism.

Grendel_Prime posted...

Source for that claim? Sounds like a gross generalization.

BBG forums as well as their reddit page and Facebook group is fill with people bashing the games.

Archgoat posted...

I am an avid board game player and I don't think that is really true. Roll and writes are very popular for example. There are a lot of people that don't like dice rolls that determine success or failure in some board games without a way to help mitigate bad rolls.

Roll and write isn't the same as dice Games. Dice games are games that use dice to dictate the actions, rather it be movement, progression, chance, etc.

I'm not a fan of them. But then you also have games where you draw cards, which is essentially the same. And that makes up such a large majority of games. Thinking about it, it's very hard to avoid the luck factor entirely. But I guess the counter-argument is that it helps make more games more accessible to a larger audience. If a game were purely skill-based, the best player would win every time. And that wouldn't be fun for those who are not the best. So it's one of those necessary evil sort of things.

VideoboysaysCube posted...

I'm not a fan of them. But then you also have games where you draw cards, which is essentially the same. And that makes up such a large majority of games. Thinking about it, it's very hard to avoid the luck factor entirely. But I guess the counter-argument is that it helps make more games more accessible to a larger audience. If a game were purely skill-based, the best player would win every time. And that wouldn't be fun for those who are not the best. So it's one of those necessary evil sort of things.

Most card base games get around this by making sure you have a handful of options per turn. Sure there is a chance factor present still, but the likelihood of a deadhand in most of them is pretty rare

Games need a mix of skill and luck to be fun. Or better put, if the outcome of a game, is only decided by game mechanics and not player input, the player involvement is an illusion and can get boring quickly.

Nichtcrawler-X posted...

Games need a mix of skill and luck to be fun. Or better put, if the outcome of a game, is only decided by game mechanics and not player input, the player involvement is an illusion and can get boring quickly.

Yeah, even as a kid I hated shoots and ladders because there was nothing to do but sit there and watch was happens with the dice results.

Right, dice are fine and often good. Games just need to be balanced such that the success of a 2-hour long game doesn't come down to a couple of high stakes rolls (unless the game is otherwise very tight).

Twilight Struggle comes to mind as a good game...except that a few early game rolls can go a long way towards deciding a winner.

I like dice games. But I agree that there needs to be some luck and some skill in games. Else, they get boring If only about skills, then its always the best person winning. Which can get boring for everybody else playing If only luck, then you might as well not be playing A mix makes it fun, though

Could you be any more specific than "dice games"?

Are roll and writes? Roll and move? Liars Dice?

DnD requires multiple numbers of multiple kinds of dice, and also a fair deal of skill on both the players' and DM's part. DnD is arguably the most renowned and popular tabletop game that sometimes comes with boards and sometimes doesn't.

Now then, if we're talking Candyland or Life, I might see the sort of disdain a stereotypical rich snob may have for the 95% of everyone else and our actions, but what about Monopoly? There are cards, yes, but so much is decided upon by dice.

So yeah... I'm going to have to ask for more clarity on wtf this alleged claim is coming from.

shadowsword87 posted...

Could you be any more specific than "dice games"?

Are roll and writes? Roll and move? Liars Dice?

According to the TC, roll and writes are not dice games. Not sure why that would be, I think any game that utilizes dice as a key game component would be a dice game. That to me sounds like only games like Yahtzee and Farkle would be dice games. There is a game I really enjoy playing called Tekhenu which is a dice drafting game, but you only roll dice every once in a while to place them before drafting. I assume this would not be considered a dice game by the TC either.

Archgoat posted...

According to the TC, roll and writes are not dice games. Not sure why that would be, I think any game that utilizes dice as a key game component would be a dice game. That to me sounds like only games like Yahtzee and Farkle would be dice games. There is a game I really enjoy playing called Tekhenu which is a dice drafting game, but you only roll dice every once in a while to place them before drafting. I assume this would not be considered a dice game by the TC either.

I assume they are referring to classic board games like Monopoly as dice games, where you can theoretically get shut out of doing anything meaningful based solely on bad dice rolls.

The main problem with Monopoly is that actually most people do not play by the actual rules. They complain about it being needlessly longwinded, but most of that is caused by universal house rules that people think are part of the main game.

Nichtcrawler-X posted...

The main problem with Monopoly is that actually most people do not play by the actual rules. They complain about it being needlessly longwinded, but most of that is caused by universal house rules that people think are part of the main game.

This is true, but it doesn't mitigate all of the issues of the game being very subject to dice rolls, both your own and other players. That was also just one example, but any game where the players ability to take action starts from a dice roll would probably fall into this group.

Nichtcrawler-X posted...

The main problem with Monopoly is that actually most people do not play by the actual rules. They complain about it being needlessly longwinded, but most of that is caused by universal house rules that people think are part of the main game.

except the house rules are so it isn't long winded.

go play a monopoly video game, don't use any custom rules

you're going to be there for fuckin hours dude

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyYexTcyY2A

I'm indifferent. I haven't played a boardgame in years but a dice being involved won't put me off said game.

hypnox posted...

Yeah, even as a kid I hated shoots and ladders because there was nothing to do but sit there and watch was happens with the dice results.

I don't like that either, but apparently it is a very ancient game and that is the philosophical point of the game.

rjsilverthorn posted...

I assume they are referring to classic board games like Monopoly as dice games, where you can theoretically get shut out of doing anything meaningful based solely on bad dice rolls.

If that is the case, TC is correct the board game community does hate monopoly.

When it's a game like Candyland (which uses cards instead of dice, but they function identically) or Snakes and Ladders and there's literally nothing to the game beyond "Who will randomly get to the end first"? I can understand the hate there. Those are indeed entirely luck-based and you get railroaded into the outcome with no ability to change it with any sort of skill. When it's a game like Monopoly where dice play a major role but there's still strategy on top of that that can allow you to work around poor dice luck to a certain extent? It can be frustrating to lose because of nothing but bad luck, but for a casual group it's generally going to be a more enjoyable experience overall if the same people don't win/lose all the time, so I don't think it's entirely a bad thing. If it's just hating on games that incorporate random mechanics in any way (which describes almost every game out there), that's not particularly reasonable, since while that can sometimes lead to luck imbalances that interfere with treating the game as a "test of skill," it means the game itself varies from play to play, which is generally more enjoyable than having it be perfectly static.

Basically, losing for no reason other than bad dice sucks, especially if you're playing with a particularly sore winner who doesn't understand/care that they only won because of good dice, but that doesn't mean there isn't room to have a good time playing the game, provided a good game is built around those random mechanics.

That's eliminating a lot of games.

hypnox posted...

shoots and ladders

Shoots?

Sometimes you've just gotta chute your chot.

No, the most hated thing is Ameritrash (aka "thematic games")

Zareth posted...

No, the most hated thing is Ameritrash (aka "thematic games")

Ugh, people want to do things like "roll lots of dice" and "have fun miniatures".
Don't they know the ideal board game is 17th century Nienburg farming, complete with a revolutionary monk track?

shadowsword87 posted...

Ugh, people want to do things like "roll lots of dice" and "have fun miniatures".
Don't they know the ideal board game is 17th century Nienburg farming, complete with a revolutionary monk track?

Every interest has its hipsters.

adjl posted...

Sometimes you've just gotta chute your chot.

Youre a real strait chuter.

Archgoat posted...

I am an avid board game player and I don't think that is really true. Roll and writes are very popular for example. There are a lot of people that don't like dice rolls that determine success or failure in some board games without a way to help mitigate bad rolls.

Basically this. There's a whole genre that heavily involves dice.

Now, if you're talking about something like, say, Risk, where RNG rolls can outweigh any actually gameplay you do, then yeah. But, that's a pretty antiquated game design that basically doesn't exist in modern non-party board games. Or if they do, it's something like Catan, where dice rolls are meshed around strategic probability. So, hating dice games in a board game community is a little akin to yelling at clouds.

Dice games? Like Yahtzee?