Board 8 > Board 8 Watches and Ranks Organized Crime Films: THE RANKING

(+) Yeah! (+)

1. ???
2. ???
3. ???
4. The Irishman
5. L.A. Confidential
6. ???
7. ???
8. Scarface (1932)
9. ???
10. White Heat
11. Gangs of New York
12. ???
13. Once Upon a Time in America
14. ???
15. The Public Enemy
16. Scarface (1983)
17. Training Day
18. Donnie Brasco
19. Millers Crossing
20. Little Caesar
21. ???
22. Sicario
23. ???
24. The Italian Job
25. American Gangster
26. Battles Without Honor and Humanity
27. Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels
28. The Untouchables
29. Gangster No. 1
30. Lucky Number Slevin

1. ???
2. Gangster No. 1
3. ???
4. ???
5. ???
6. ???
7. ???
8. ???
9. Miller's Crossing
10. The Irishman
11. Training Day
12. ???
13. Donnie Brasco
14. ???
15. ???
16. Lock, Stock & Two Smoking Barrels
17. White Heat
18. Battles Without Honor and Humanity
19. Gangs of New York
20. Sicario
21. Scarface (1985)
22. Little Caesar
23. Once Upon a Time in America
24. The Italian Job
25. American Gangster
26. Scarface (1932)
27. Lucky Number Slevin
28. LA Confidential
29. The Public Enemy
30. The Untouchables

going pretty well for me tbh

10. Casino (1995)
Directed by: Martin Scorsese
Runtime: 2h 58m
Score: 147

Karo: 2
seginus: 7
Snake: 8
plasma: 11
rockus: 13
Myth: 14
Vis: 14
John: 15
Poke: 17
Tangy: 19
ssbm: 27

Karo
This guy is sent out to Vegas by the mob to run one of their casinos there, and the story is about the day to day activities of casino maintenance, something that is a lot more interesting than you might think.
Things start to go south when he gets married to Amber Heard and his mentally unstable old friend comes to town to cause trouble.
It's just a well made movie that despite being one of the longer films on the list it never really felt long, something certain other movies could have really used.

seginus
Maximum Scorsese, almost to the point of parody. Constant zippy montages with classic rock needle drops (they're just a shot away!) and dueling narrators chaperone us through an ego clash that builds to a symphony of "fuckin' fuck you motherfucker" rants from every direction. The wardrobe is out of control, it looks like Marty ordered every kind of pastel suit possible. Loved the bit where Ace gets up from his desk to reveal he wasn't wearing pants in the scene. In many ways I found this the funniest Scorsese movie, it's just so over-the-top in style. The brutally serious ending really lands though, all the absurdity gets sucked out and you're left with the sober consequences. Pesci knocks it out of the park.

Snake
Casino takes the new-gangster era started by Goodfellas and pushes it to its natural limits. The set pieces are some of the best in the business, but the real focus here is on the script, the direction, and the performances. The direction is controlled in a way that feels both like something thats been in the works for years and a true off-the-cuff interpretation, while the actors seem like they're actually given more to say than the script permits, so the film simply transcends this limitation to become something more ambitious but perhaps less satisfying than a few other of its peers at the time.

plasma
If you get an erection from seeing slot machines, piles of cash, and De Niro-Pesci arguments, you had to have gone straight to the ER after watching this one. It shouldnt surprise anyone that IBoard 8s #1 oddsmakerloved all the Vegas lore this film had to offer. The first hour does a fantastic job with worldbuilding, and once the stage is set, we get to follow Sam Rothstein (aka Ace) as he navigates the hectic world of old-school Vegas while dealing with his unhinged wife Ginger and his opportunistic best friend Nicky.

While people often dismiss Casino as a Goodfellas clone, I dont see it that way. Sure, both movies share the same directorial style, but Casino has an actual plot with events that arise from a direct cause-effect relationship (Nicky did this, which caused Ace to do that, which caused Ginger to react like that, etc.) By comparison, Goodfellas is a collection of anecdotes from mob life (This happened, then this happened, etc.). Im a plot guy who needs some suspense in his life, so I prefer Casino, even if its three-hour runtime overstays its welcome.

I love that we get a protagonist here whos neither hero nor monster. Ace is portrayed as this calculating, level-headed gambling expert with severe trust issues. Though a major control freak, he rolls the dice with an unpredictable ex-hooker named Ginger and marries her. He knows its a bad move, but he goes through with it anyway. Its a dumb move but also a human one, and it puts his trust issues through a trial by fire. Throw in the pressure of delivering for the bosses and some betrayals from his best friend Nicky, and its a miracle that Ace stays cool for most of the movie. When he does explode, its a treat, especially the shouting match with Ginger when he throws her out (after she tied their daughter to her bed like a john yikes).

On this rewatch I noticed that the romantic and family subplots echo Scarface and Godfather II, respectively. Aces relationship with Ginger mirrors Tony Montanas relationship with Elvira, except the roles are flippedwhereas we root for Elvira to leave Tony in Scarface, here we root for Ace to get the hell away from Ginger, who becomes more unhinged by the minute. Her behavior also makes us root for him to rescue his daughter from Ginger and her pimp ex-boyfriendanother role-reversal if you compare this situation to Godfather IIs custody battle. I know Casino was based on a true story, but in the context of this project its fun to see how these relationship dynamics vary from movie to movie.

It pains me to admit that while I was mesmerized by Casino the first time I watched it, my latest rewatch didnt leave me as dazzled. Its still a strong movie, but the middle section drags at times and the ending lacks punch. Aces life coming full-circle certainly works (again, hes neither hero nor monster), but the ending lacks the wow-factor that caps off several other films on our list. B

rockus
Has the misfortune of being directed by Martin Scorsese after he had already made a classic like Goodfellas so it endlessly draws comparison to his previous film. Unfair considering its still a terrific looking crime epic in its own right. De Niro and Pesci are again in top form and Scorsese captures all the glamor, glitz, and seedy wheels turning behind the bright lights of mafia controlled Vegas casinos.

Myth
Intriguing look at the inner workings of a mob-run Las Vegas Casino, reuniting Robert De Niro and Joe Pesci from Goodfellas who both do great work as they set out to rob the residents and tourists of Vegas in similar ways, though De Niro has the appearance of legality he tries and fails to maintain over the film. A more pensive film than Goodfellas, with a stronger emphasis on De Niros deteriorating marriage with a con woman played by Sharon Stone, which was well-done and honestly kind of frightening.

Vis
First things first, this particular subject matter might be home to some of the most awful scumbags imaginable, but Ginger has gotta be right up there as one of the worst people Ive had the misfortune of watching. I cannot remember a single positive moment she contributed to the plot after her introductory scene. And maybe thats the whole point; she was at her best when she was in control and running her hustle, and when it came time to settle down and live a more domesticated life, she just couldnt deal with it. Without the hustle, she grew restless, and that led to her ultimate downfall.

On the other side of things, while Sam mightve been possessive, he really comes across as one of the better human beings weve seen on the criminal side of things. He just wanted to run his casino and turn a profit and generally be a good guy about maintaining a legitimate business that could mask the mafias illegitimate dealings. Was he perfect? No. But he had high expectations of the people working for him, and the people working around him, and he wasnt willing to compromise his high standards just to make the organization of crime easier for those around him. Ive honestly gotta respect that, because if youre going to have a fatal flaw (and it wasnt even fatal, ultimately), being too hard of a worker is a good one to have.

Ultimately though, while the movie was interesting in terms of giving an inside look at how the casino business of the seventies was a front for the mafia, I think it dragged on a LITTLE too long. There were several instances where I kept thinking Okay, this is ramping up to the ending, but there was still over an hour and a half left to go. The movie just kept piling things on, and it got a little bit repetitive by the end. I still found the ending satisfying, as everyone got got who deserved to get got, and Sam got to live his life comfortably, doing what he was best at. Even in retirement from the casino business, hes still a hustler, and I respect that from a character.

Finally, just gotta mention that while Ginger sucks, Nicky was a real problem. I mean, I appreciate Joe Pesci playing a hard-ass, probably because hes a good example of a Napoleon complex. But at a certain point, he was just like Ginger, fucking around and fucking things up because he couldnt sit still and just enjoy a legitimate and comfortable life. He even had a wife and kid, and didnt seem to have the kind of marital difficulties Sam had, yet he still threw it away because he wanted to be a big shot. He cared more about crime than his own family. Boo to that, but I suppose it added some conflict that at least made the bloated runtime more interesting.

John
I initially had Casino rank higher, but perhaps more than any other film on this list, Casino suffers from what it's paired up against. On its own, the film is a blast. DeNiro and Pesci are both incredible here, and Scorsese obviously has this stuff locked down at this point in his career. Maybe that's part of what stops it from really standing on top? It's an excellent movie but at the same time, it's a retread to an extent of other ideas presented in the gangster epics that spanned the 70s to the 90s. Still, it's pretty easily the best film set in Las Vegas (in my opinion) and that alone is some steep competition.

Poke
A bit more lengthy than Goodfellas, I see how Scorsese was trying to riff off of that style, just with Vegas as the backdrop. It is still a good film, but it lagged a little bit here and there.

Tangy
I want to put this one so much higher, but I just cant justify it! Im completely head over heels for the setting, Pesci is as great as ever and surprisingly enough Sam Rothstein is pretty damn likable. He might have an ego the size of a house and gets angry pretty easily, but hes consistently the most level headed of our protagonists and if he had just chosen his friends better he wouldnt be in this whole mess to begin with. I also found Stones performance to be insanely good. In a nice twist of fate its the romantic leads turn to have a huge downfall and it all comes out great. Definitely on the same level as Hill and Harris. Now I probably sound like a broken record at this point, but the runtime is a problem. A big question I always ask myself after watching one of these. Does this movie need to be over 2.5 hours? To me a long runtime is an indication that this film is going to be an epic in terms of scope and theres just too much to try and cram into the typical film length. Then you have something like Casino show up just to be a mid tier Scorsese movie. Movies like Taxi Driver and Raging Bull do so much more in less time and thats not even considering his movies that are on the list. I dont know, maybe its just a me problem, but its always something Im going to point out.

ssbm
Rating: D

Oh, Casino. You had so much promise in the beginning. Ace is the gangster trying to be legitimate. Nicky is the gangster who sees Vegas as his stomping grounds. There's other feuds going on throughout the movie, but this is the main one. I particularly like the narration done by either Ace or Nicky. I always enjoy different narrations because you get a sense of how they see the world and that's important for these two gangsters who walk different paths.

The problem is that it doesn't ever seem to go anywhere. There's a lot of talking, but surprisingly little action going on between these two. Also, Ginger. I cannot stand Ginger. I feel like that's the point, but it took me out of the movie, because I cannot see how both Ace and Nicky just tolerates Ginger when she's being completely ridiculous. They're gangsters! I'm not asking them to kill her, but every time they're in scenes together, it feels like the adults in the room are tolerating the baby having a temper tantrum. This is especially apparent when Ginger crashes into Ace's car in broad daylight and goes into his house. I cannot stand drug-induced character spirals. I don't think it's a compelling character arc. I also feel like it's too easy to put all the blame on the drug when it's also part of the circumstances that they're in. It's a shame, because I liked Ginger, but I just felt this was one of the lamer ways to take her character.

Eventually, characters start dying, but at that point, I just didn't care. Even Nicky's death just had no impact on me. I lost the thread of the movie and all I remember is just Ginger antics. Like, I'm reading my notes and I talk about how I enjoy how both Nicky and Ace take care of their kids. It's a humanizing touch. But then Ginger literally ties her kid up with rope and also attempts to kidnap her for money. This is what I mean! And everyone's just like "Yep. That's Ginger. Gotta normalize the situation." I'm just stunned. I really do not like the "hysterical woman" trope, but this is just a ridiculous character.

Outlier Ranking
rockus: 152
ssbm: 150
plasma: 141
Poke: 139
John: 131
Mythiot: 124
seginus: 121
Snake: 120
Vis: 119
Karo: 117
Tangy: 114

Guess Carlito's Way.

I think I'm actually going to stick with Reservoir Dogs

Johnbobb posted...

10. Casino (1995)

What?! Casino didn't finish #1? You people sicken me.

plasma: 11

Ahem. Well...this is awkward.

plasma
It shouldnt surprise anyone that IBoard 8s #1 oddsmaker

Yeah, I'll just quietly go back to doing that.

Nobody wagered on Casino (which is the most fitting result ever), so the House wins again!!

Vegas Odds on #9:

+500 Snatch
+750 Carlito's Way
+750 City of God
+900 Reservoir Dogs
+1000 The Departed
+1250 The Godfather Pt. II
+2000 Goodfellas
+2000 Pulp Fiction
+2500 The Godfather

Leaderboard:

1. Inviso $2500 (+500 Gangster No., +1500 The Irishman, +500 White Heat)
2. Fortybelowsummer $2250 (+750 Sicario, +$1000 Gangs of New York, +500 White Heat)
3. BetrayedTangy: $1850 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 White Heat, +750 Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels)
4. PokeWars: $1700 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 Gangster No. 1, +600 Scarface (1932))
5. SSBM: $1000 (+$1000 Gangs of New York)

Gonna guess Reservoir Dogs.

In all seriousness, I came into this project expecting to rank Casino as my #1. The first time I watched it, I loved it, but the pacing issues were a glaring issue on my re-watch. Also, SSBM is right about the characters (aside from Ace) not leaving a strong impact.

Try Carlito's Way again

9. Snatch (2000)
Directed by: Guy Ritchie
Runtime: 1h 42m
Score: 136

Snake: 2
Tangy: 2
Poke: 2
John: 4
seginus: 5
ssbm: 8
Karo: 15
Myth: 21
Vis: 22
rockus: 26
plasma: 29

Snake
It's like Guy Ritchie remaking Lock, Stock, taking what that film established, and enhancing the comedic elements for a film that's even more nutty, exhilarating, and violent than ever, but also with a far more grounded sense of consequence and error. This film has potentially the best cast on the whole list, full of individual character quirks and sheer idiosyncratic charm. Endlessly quotable and instantly memorable. I mean Brad Pitt in this film - COME ON.

Tangy
I love how Guy Richie takes the standard gangster formula, twists it on its head and completely satirizes it. Usually we get to see a bunch of different factions trying to outwit and out muscle each other for their slice of the pie. Which is more or less the same here, with the only caveat being over half the characters here are complete fucking morons. It goes such a long way in keeping you gripped that I cant help but praise it to the highest degree. Not only that, but they all manage to be super endearing as well. Despite such a large cast, theyre all delightfully memorable in their own ways. Youve got Statham being the quick witted, relatable character, Brad Pitt coming in with my favorite movie accent
ever, Vinny, Sol and fucking Tyrone being some of the most lovable bank robbers ever seen on screen and Cousin Avi is a freaking riot, I could go on forever, but wed literally be here all day. They all contrast perfectly with Alan Fords intimidating Brick Top. Who despite being the most intelligent character, still gets murdered in the end. It just goes to show that in a comedy of errors like Snatch, your plans can and will go wrong no matter how powerful you are.

Poke
Probably the flashier of the two famous Guy Ritchie films, what with the addition of some big names like Brad Pitt, but the British wit still remains. Another great ensemble cast and just a riot of a film.

John
Everything LS&2SB did right, Snatch did even better and then some. Somehow this movie introduces more than a dozen different characters and manages to make just about every single one of them entertaining and memorable, regardless of how long or how short they were on screen. The humor, the action, and the dialogue are all tightly delivered in equal measure. This was an instant favorite of mine the moment I saw it years back, and it holds up just as well now.

seginus
I tried watching this a decade ago and I couldn't understand what anyone was saying. This time I used subtitles, and it was great fun! Basically a souped-up version of Lock Stock, with better color grading and a peak Brad Pitt with a ham accent. Interesting little interplay with the people being fed to pigs, the dog eating the squeaky pig toy, and the dude grilling sausages at the beginning and end. What was up with that? Anyway, I just enjoy these stories where there are lots of little teams of characters unknowingly revolving around the same MacGuffins. You could say it's nodding at Tarantino a bit much by hitting up both fixed boxing and a diamond heist for plot points but I think Ritchie brings enough of his own mojo to make this into its own thing. A British vulgar auteur.

ssbm
Rating: B

I was pretty engaged with this movie. It's funny all the way through and Mickey in particular is just magnetic and likable in all of his appearances. Brick Top is also particularly good and works great as an antagonist. He's the single link between all the seprate stories, which really works in linking all the movies together. I thought it was great seeing when characters were put out of commission in the story and it keeps you on your toes to see who will last till the end. I especially like the boxing fight that Mickey has at the end of the movie. Great camerawork there.

I absolutely love the intro of this movie. It reminds me a lot of Baccano! It's a really great way to familiarize yourself with the big cast and it just looks really clean. On the other hand, I do not like the opening of this movie, as in the very first opening scene. It basically spoils who the diamond belongs to at the very end, which just feels like a self-own to do in a movie where the diamond switches hands so often.

It's really hard for me to comment on comedies. It's funny. What else do I need to say about it? Do I need to explain why the jokes are funny? One thing I will say is that I particularly like the Ritchie style of comedy, where it seems to be more about the situation than individual lines or gags. It's about how not everyone is operating under the same information and that it just leads to a comedy of errors. The car chase where Boris is kidnapped is exactly what comes to mind. It's harder to explain the comedy, especially to an outsider, but it just works for me.

Karo
A group of hoodlums repeatedly fail at the simple task of rigging a boxing match in something that maybe feels a bit TOO much like LSaTSB. Basically, dumb criminals are dumb, and we laugh at them a lot. The formula still works, but here it seems to lose a bit of the luster particularly with how it often tries too hard to seem 'cool'. It is still a decent movie that is very funny and I enjoyed it.

Myth
A huge improvement on Lock, as everything looks better, the characters are more varied and colorful, and the stories twist into each other much more satisfyingly. I particularly loved Brad Pitt and his barely understandable accent as not-Aran Ryan as well as the extremely creepy mob boss who loves feeding his enemies to his pigs.

Vis
Its weird watching two of Guy Ritchies movies back-to-back and being forced to directly compare and contrast the two. The problem with Snatch is that its so unfocused, with too many characters and too many plotlines going on that feel tenuously connected at best. So like, half the movie, youre dealing with Jason Statham being WAY too casual about this fighter hes unable to control, and half the movie is about Morgan from Fear the Walking Dead trying to get a diamond for people after he stole it in the first place. Then everyone dies and Brad Pitt gets rich. The whole thing is just a bit too chaotic, and it doesnt use the narrator storytelling device in a way that I found enjoyable. It mean, it wasnt like it ever offended me or anything, but I wouldve liked a clearer narrative, thats all.

rockus
A Bit of a spiritual successor to Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels that while entertaining enough never quite comes together for me as well as his first feature. Outside of Statham, Pitt, and Alan Ford not much of the rest of the cast sticks with me and its never been quite as memorable as Lock, Stock.

plasma
Considering that I loved Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels about as much as Suprak loved Terrifier, I approached Snatchour second Guy Ritchie filmwith rock bottom expectations. Even with the bar set abysmally low, I was still disappointed. If theres one thing Ive learned from this project, its that the worst crime imaginable is giving Guy Ritchie an opportunity to write and direct a movie. His jokes fall limp, his characters ooze stupidity, and his storylines offer nothing to root for or care about. Either you somehow enjoy his brand of humor, or you feel like youre staring at a dead clown for two hours.

I decided to rank Snatch ahead of Lock because Snatch is more polished in terms of presentation and the Irish Tyler Durden fights were watchable. Oh, and I loved this snappy exchange between a customs agent and Dennis Farina when he returns from the UK:

Do you have anything to declare?
Yeah. Dont go to fucking England.

I laughed out loud. Congrats, Snatch. That bumps you up to #29. F

Outlier Ranking
rockus: 169
plasma: 161
ssbm: 151
Poke: 146
John: 136
Mythiot: 136
Vis: 132
Snake: 127
seginus: 125
Karo: 123
Tangy: 121

God damn it.

Guess Carlito's Way

Guessing Carlito's Way again.

Was I the only one who liked Lock more than Snatch?

Once again, nobody took the easy money. Back-to-back wins for the House as we enter the final eight!

Vegas Odds on #8:

+500 Carlito's Way
+600 City of God
+750 Reservoir Dogs
+900 The Departed
+1000 The Godfather Pt. II
+2000 Goodfellas
+2000 Pulp Fiction
+2500 The Godfather

Leaderboard:

1. Inviso $2500 (+500 Gangster No., +1500 The Irishman, +500 White Heat)
2. Fortybelowsummer $2250 (+750 Sicario, +$1000 Gangs of New York, +500 White Heat)
3. BetrayedTangy: $1850 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 White Heat, +750 Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels)
4. PokeWars: $1700 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 Gangster No. 1, +600 Scarface (1932))
5. SSBM: $1000 (+$1000 Gangs of New York)

Johnbobb posted...

very slight change to the totals, but not enough to significantly change anything

36
62
81
92
108
127
129
130
136 - Snatch
147 - Casino

Three points separated #8 and #6. Next few reveals should be fun.

Considering that I loved Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels about as much as Suprak loved Terrifier,

Haha I love that I'm the barometer for SEETHING hatred now.

This has been a really fun topic to read through and I am a little sad I couldn't motivate myself through the rest of the movies. This just is not my genre, which I think was the biggest problem.

This probably used to be like my 5th favorite movie of all time but it's went down a little since I first saw it. Still cracks me the hell up though.

It'll be Reservoir Dogs this time for realsies

Awww that's a bummer. I seriously love Snatch. One of the few movies I can put on anytime and always be entertained

Blaziken posted...

Was I the only one who liked Lock more than Snatch?

Lock was my #1, followed by Snatch. Not that big a discrepancy but still.

It was a BIG gap between the two for me. Lock was a great black comedy film, while Snatch was a mess.

Anyone that ranked Snatch low: Do you know what nemesis means?

Going Carlito's again...

Sticking with Reservoir Dogs

Part of me wonders if Lock and Snatch got so high because they're a breath of fresh air compared to all the other movies.

Guessing The Departed.

SSBM_Guy posted...

Part of me wonders if Lock and Snatch got so high because they're a breath of fresh air compared to all the other movies.

Snatch would've ranked in the top 5 of probably any list we've done for me

Lock Stock > Snatch

SSBM_Guy posted...

Part of me wonders if Lock and Snatch got so high because they're a breath of fresh air compared to all the other movies.

I don't know. Slevin went for a similar tone and barely made it out of the Bottom 5. Snatch is a film that knows what it wants to be and completely owns it. That's what puts it a step above other similar movies. At least for me.

Training Day and Snatch lasted way too long.

Remember when Denzel Washington pointed two guns at that guy's crotch while talking to him way too close? What is he an anime villain? That movie is way too silly to take seriously and it's shot like a TV show. Plus, it's hardly even about organized crime. Something like Deep Cover would have been a better fit for the list.

Disagree hard on Training Day, can't say I like Snatch. Feel like Guy Ritchie films might just not be for me.

Carlito's Way for real this time.

fortybelowsummer posted...

Anyone that ranked Snatch low: Do you know what nemesis means?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgmFDjA8lxU

SSBM_Guy posted...

Part of me wonders if Lock and Snatch got so high because they're a breath of fresh air compared to all the other movies.

Doesn't explain why Miller's Crossing landed in the 20s though. I expected MC, Lock, and Snatch to all land within ten spots of each other but that wasn't the case.

That still makes me think of Roger Ebert's criticism of Miller's Crossing as more an exercise in style than anything and one he'd recommend mostly for fans of gangster movies. I don't have a hard time imagining that a lot of the rankers here might have just been tired when they got to Miller's Crossing and saw the same stuff.

I mean, I wouldn't exactly know for sure, but I never got the impression Miller's Crossing was comedic in the same way Guy Ritchie films are. Someone who has actually seen the film can feel free to correct me though.

LinkMarioSamus posted...

I mean, I wouldn't exactly know for sure, but I never got the impression Miller's Crossing was comedic in the same way Guy Ritchie films are. Someone who has actually seen the film can feel free to correct me though.

There's definitely comedic moments and the Coens' style absolutely shares some similarities with Richie, especially with their characters. Miller's Crossing honestly just feels like a prototype for their better stuff.

8. Carlito's Way (1993)
Directed by: Brian De Palma
Runtime: 2h 24m
Score: 130

seginus: 2
plasma: 4
rockus: 7
Vis: 8
ssbm: 9
Tangy: 10
Karo: 11
John: 14
Snake: 17
Myth: 23
Poke: 25

seginus
Another familiar favorite, and for my money De Palma's finest. Essentially a pseudo-sequel to (and deconstruction of) Scarface, again casting Pacino as a Cuban crime lord only this time he's...reformed? Yep, despite the callbacks and quotes ("I'm reloaded!", the shot of the cockroach under the glass *hint*) Carlito Brigante is no Tony Montana, and I think trading the genre's usual anti-hero for an anti-villain really works here. Opposite motives, but equally doomed. Pacino and Penn are at their best, and De Palma's technical ambitions shine. There's so much cool camerawork, sets, and lighting. The whole train station chase is excellent, the simple overhead shot of Carlito on the gurney as if he were floating up is so effective, even the spinning makeout scene is impressive. And the romance manages to be pretty wholesome too! Bonus points for the final shot with the dancing silhouettes in that little vision of paradise. Perfect ending. Also bonus points for that amazing Viggo Mortensen scene where he's like "come on Carlito, I got no dick, man!"

plasma
What a breath of fresh air this was. After it opened with Carlitos bombastic court outburst, I figured we were headed for a story about an egomaniacal criminal rebuilding his empire after a five-year jail stint. Instead we got treated to a story about a reformed criminal doing his best to uphold a personal code and walk the straight-and-narrow.

I loved how easy it was to root for this guy. Being portrayed by Al Pacino obviously helps, but Carlito couldve been played by Nick Cage and I still wouldve gotten behind him and his tangible goals of making $70K and heading to the Caribbean for a fresh start. In a project where almost every story centers on anti-heroes or outright villains, we get a character who might best be described as an anti-villain. Carlito knows the game, hes got a dark history, and hes capable of going John Wick on anyone within shooting distance, but this Last of the Mo-Ricans sticks to his code and wants to be a regular guy. Love it.

The story does a fantastic job of juggling different plotlines. Sean Penns storyline is the key subplot here, and it explores the idea of loyalty and how much is owed to those who save our asses. The romantic subplot is simple yet strong, with standout moments like when Carlito criticizes Gail for working at a strip club, only for her to flip it back on him by asking if hes ever killed anyone. Then you have other, sneakier subplots involving the criminals trying to pull Carlito back into the hell hes trying to escape.

The movie erupts during its final act, and the entire train chase sequence had my heart slamming against my sternum. Possibly the most exciting sequence from any movie on our list. The triple-whammy of a likable protagonist, high personal stakes, and delicious tension lit the screen on fire for twenty minutes.

Then, right as Carlito reaches the train, theres that split-second of intense relief before he gets blasted by Benny from the Bronx. Ill admit the timing of the shooting is contrived, but the moment it happens, its a soul-crusher, and even though I expected a tragic ending, I was rooting so hard for Carlito to escape that his death gutted me.

Soon as the movie ended, I started piecing together all the mistakes Carlito made leading up to the ending: dismissing Benny, opting not to kill Benny, losing the respect of his bodyguard, taking the bullets out of Sean Penns gun, the list goes on. This movie filled me with such a strong sense of regret and pain in the final moments, and that makes up for any slip-ups along the way. A

rockus
Undeniably my favorite post-80s, late era Brian De Palma film and one of Pacinos finest performances. It might also have my favorite performance I can think of from Sean Penn. The finale is also an absolute banger and I dont think De Palma has made a film as good since.

Vis
Watching this so soon after Untouchables, its very interesting to see the touchstones of Brian de Palma as a director. That whole ending sequence in the train station felt claustrophobic and terrifying, but you just had hope that Carlito was going to get away. I like the fact that the whole plot of the film revolved around a guy who is a FORMER criminal. He was a total badass that had everyone scared of him just by reputation, but he gets out of prison, and he has NO desire to go back to the criminal life. However, by a series of unfortunate events, he just keeps getting dragged back in, and hes REALLY good at crime, even inadvertently. He gets some crime money and uses it to invest in a club, which goes gangbusters, and his life is going great. He reunites with his ex; his club is going well; hes really turning his life around.

Meanwhile, his nerdy-ass lawyer starts thinking hes a big man, and starts trying to act tough and make power moves. And since said lawyer got Carlito out of prison, Carlito is indebted to him in a rule of the street kind of way. Carlito winds up witness to several murders that he wanted NO part of. He just wanted out of the game, but he got dragged in, and now he has the law after him (to rat on his lawyer friend, despite David screwing him over first), AND he has the mafia thinking that he was in on the murder of a mob boss and his son. Its a really interesting tragedy, because even when you try to get your life straightened out, theres just no undoing the damage your early reputation has on your endgame. But even more interesting is that its not even the mafia that gets him, but this punk asshole who thinks hes gonna be the next big thing. THAT is the ultimate capper on this storyline, and its a really solid and powerful ending.

ssbm
Rating: B

I'm actually surprised that this plot structure isn't copied in other movies. It's a winning one in my opinion. Carlito gets out of prison and attempts to leave the criminal lifestyle, only for the lifestyle to suck him back in. Carlito is one of the more likable protagonists! He even has a fairly wholesome romance, one of the few in the whole series. He's kind of a rogue-ish protagonist, sneaky and street-smart, but not overtly malicious. I was also pretty surprised by Sean Penn's Dave. I did not expect him to go full-on antagonist. It's really interesting, watching the intro scene again where Carlito monologues in court. You would think Carlito is just BSing, but no, he's completely honest. And Dave, who looks more reasonable, just ends up being completely unreasonable by the end.

I love the third act of this movie, where Carlito is being hunted down by the mob and he needs to escape to the train with Gail. I was surprised by how tense I felt watching Carlito hide in the shadows and crowds, as well as hiding in the escalator. It's enthralling and is a class example of showing that you don't need a fight to make things feel tense. Of course, it does become a fight, but it's pretty interesting camerawork since it all happens on an escalator.

Tangy
Dude I just love Al Pacino. This man has far more patience in this role than I could ever dream of having. Seriously he does everything in his power to stay calm and not resort to his old ways, but his dumbass friend just will not leave him freaking be. Like he just sat in prison for 5 years, give the man a break. I do like Sean Penn here though, I can always appreciate an actor that can play someone as punchable as Kleinfeld is. I think I also love the pacing here too. It does all these soft builds, where you see the tension rising, but Carlito always worms his way out of danger. By the time we reach the finale however, its non stop. And since we already know he dies, it turns into a question of when Carlitos luck will finally run out and tragically its right at the very end. Ya know Ive really been enjoying these de Palma films, I need to check out more of his work.

Karo
An ex-con trying to turn his life around gets inevitably drawn back into the criminal underworld thinks to his shitty friends.
I really felt for the character and his struggles to escape his old life, as well as the act of mercy that eventually leads his downfall. He is a tragic figure and it is done very well.
I refuse to accept that Kleinfeld could survive for ten minutes in the company he keeps let alone successfully murder a mafia kingpin, but other than that the story is very believable and sheds light on the struggles many real world convicts face after release.

John
It's easy to compare Carlito's Way to Scarface for a number of reason. Same director, similarly long length, similar setting, same Al Pacino playing a hispanic man despite him being Italian. But what's different here, and part of what makes Carlito's Way work for me more than either of the Scarface's is the juxaposition between Pacino and Penn. Where's Tony Montana was, ultimately, a despicable figure who caused his own undoing, Carlito is someone who legitimately seems to want to change for the better. Does he deserve to make that change? Is what he does with his newfound freedom enough to make him a sympathetic figure? That balance is what makes Carlito's Way great; there's arguments to be made both ways. Meanwhile, Sean Penn's Kleinfeld is a character who begins simply dipping his toe in the mob lifestyle, and before long he's diving headfirst and trying to bring down everyone around him, Carlito included. Carlito both owes Kleinfeld for his freedom and is ultimately the person continuing to shackle him into the life that got him imprisoned in the first place. It's a compelling dynamic the whole way through

Snake
Yeah, its pretty good!

Myth
Takes a bit too long to really get going and the dialogue isnt all that great, but Pacino is compelling as a criminal trying to go straight after being released from prison, and being dragged back into trouble by his slimy lawyer friend. The final chase at the subway station more than makes up for the slow first two thirds.

Poke
I wish they didn't sort of give away the ending at the beginning. I felt like it would have served the film better, because I was invested in the chase at the end, but I knew something was going to happen eventually. But other than that, it was a fine film.

Outlier Ranking
rockus: 170
plasma: 165
Poke: 163
ssbm: 152
Mythiot: 151
John: 142
Snake: 136
Vis: 132
seginus: 131
Karo: 126
Tangy: 123

Carlito finally pays out for everyone who hammered it over the past few days. Poke, Vis, Forty, and Myth collect $500 apiece, and Poke hops into 3rd place.

Vegas Odds on #7:

+650 Reservoir Dogs
+650 City of God
+650 The Departed
+900 The Godfather Pt. II
+1500 Goodfellas
+1500 Pulp Fiction
+2000 The Godfather

Leaderboard:

1. Inviso $3000 (+500 Gangster No., +1500 The Irishman, +500 White Heat, +500 Carlito's Way)
2. Fortybelowsummer $2750 (+750 Sicario, +1000 Gangs of New York, +500 White Heat, +500 Carlito's Way)
3. PokeWars: $2200 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 Gangster No. 1, +600 Scarface (1932), +500 Carlito's Way)
4. BetrayedTangy: $1850 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 White Heat, +750 Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels)
5. SSBM: $1000 (+1000 Gangs of New York)
6. Mythiot: $500 (+500 Carlito's Way)

seginus
I think trading the genre's usual anti-hero for an anti-villain really works here.
plasma
we get a character who might best be described as an anti-villain.

Greats minds.

ssbm
It's really interesting, watching the intro scene again where Carlito monologues in court. You would think Carlito is just BSing, but no, he's completely honest. And Dave, who looks more reasonable, just ends up being completely unreasonable by the end.

That why this movie won me over so strongly. He's initially characterized as a wild man, then you see this humble guy who sticks by his word. Integrity shines brightly in a project like this.

Tangy
I think I also love the pacing here too. It does all these soft builds, where you see the tension rising, but Carlito always worms his way out of danger. By the time we reach the finale however, its non stop.

You nailed it with the "soft builds" part. I couldn't quite figure out why I loved the pacing so much, but this is it. There's tension, then release, and not until the end does the movie truly pop.

Really tough choice here but I'll go with The Departed

Shooting in the dark now.

Guess City of God

Anti-villain it is! Great movie, glad it made the top ten.

but it's gonna be Reservoir Dogs THIS time baby you know I know it

Gonna guess The Departed.

Really liked your right up Seginus. Another great demonstration of how versatile Pacino can be

Guessing Reservoir Dogs

7. Reservoir Dogs (1992)
Directed by: Quentin Tarantino
Runtime: 1h 39m
Score: 129

Snake: 1
Poke: 6
John: 8
Myth: 9
Tangy: 11
ssbm: 12
Karo: 14
seginus: 15
Vis: 16
plasma: 18
rockus: 19

Snake
Is this the greatest movie ever made? Why yes, yes it is. Its a film that revolutionized movie dialogue for the better - mixing pop culture references and irreverence to create the snappiest and most digestible dialogue around. The film goes down like a stiff drink, in all the best ways - where the violence and dialogue each feel strong in separate ways. Its decision to not show the heist, a result of budgetary restriction, was a stroke of genius, as the film transforms itself into becoming a sort of commentary on masculinity, thievery & crime, and the very acts of violence shown so prominent in film, gaming, and TV. It pulls no punches, and I respect it immensely for that. Its a film that shows restraint, knowing what you dont see is often more terrifying than what you dont. Just like any good horror movie, Reservoir Dogs bills itself on ultimate tension, and as the flashbacks around the heist intertwine and interconnect you feel like a detective, putting the pieces together on exactly who these characters are and what the hell actually happened. Its so good, and Im always redrawn into the story based on just how well everything is told, combined with the jaunty soundtrack and brisk pace.

Poke
Tarantino's dialogue is always a treat. From the opening scene to the commode story. The interplay with all of the coloured Misters. It's got the iconic ear-cutting while grooving to "Stuck in the Middle with You." A classic.

John
They call Buscemi gay slurs and make fun of him for being Mr. Pink meanwhile Mr. Orange is sitting right next to him, an entire dreamboat. I mean ACAB of course but goddamn.

Myth
In his debut film, Tarantino makes the most of his small budget and creates an extremely entertaining and tense mystery-thriller that mostly takes place in one location. Much of his trademarks come into play: sharp witty dialogue, obscure pop-culture discussions, gruesome violence, and excellent style. Who doesnt love the title sequence where theyre all walking in slo-mo while Little Green Bag plays? Personal favorite of the cast is Steve Buscemi at his best and Buscemiest trying to figure out who the rat is.

Tangy
This movie is literally just Tarantino writing dialogue for an hour and a half, but I dont care! The fact that you can sit there and be invested in a conversation at a coffee shop is insane. The man is a magnificent writer and he only gets better going forward. Thats ultimately the movies problem though compared to his other films, this movie almost feels like its lacking an identity. Especially when compared to its direct follow up

ssbm
Rating: C+

This is one of the movies I watched beforehand. Part of me wonders how high I would have ranked it, not knowing who the rat is and finally learning who it is as the movie goes on. I love the present-day scenes, but not so much the backstories of all the characters. I like Mr. Orange's scenes of getting into the gang and I think a few quick scenes establishing Mr. White and Mr. Blonde's loyalty to Nice Guy Eddie are good. But I feel like a lot of Mr. Blonde's backstory could be cut and especially the scenes of Mr. Orange getting shot don't really need to be seen. But this is a fairly brisk movie and I'm honestly surprised how quickly the movie goes once we learn who Mr. Orange is.

I really enjoy the ending of this, as weird as the showdown between Nice Guy Eddie, Mr. White, and Joe is. We never learn who shoots Nice Guy Eddie! But yeah, Mr. White and Mr. Orange do a great job with this movie. And, of course, Mr. Pink is just a delight whenever he talks. I also really enjoy the intro scene with Mr. Orange screaming about how he's dying and Mr. White needs to calm him down.

Karo
A group of men named after primary colors (and one hair color) plan a bank robbery that goes horribly wrong and the story mostly deals with the aftermath.
The movie does a good job of presenting the characters in a way you can get a good feel for who they are, as well as keeping the identity of the traitor well hidden. Though I have no clue why Mr Blue even existed, the guy is so inconsequential he doesnt even get an on-camera death.
It is a very Tarantino kind of thing, and if you like a Tarantino kind of thing you will like this. I wouldn't really consider this one of his best movies though.

seginus
Tarantino does the most with the least here, crafting a tightly wound mafia game that sustains the tension of a man bleeding to death the entire time. There's an interesting romantic overtone between Roth/Keitel, and Buscemi's opinionated cynic act was great. I loved how it got meta when Mr. Orange was rehearsing his bogus story and within that story, there was another cop telling a story in the background. At times the dialogue sounds like it's trying too hard to be badass but it's balanced by all the times where it's almost deliberately uncool - opening with the gangsters arguing about Madonna and tipping at breakfast does a lot to undercut the tough guy fronts they put on. Which itself is kind of cool.

Vis
I enjoy this movie well enough, and I think its well-made, but the things that holds it back for me is that its largely a movie of dialogues and monologues, but it doesnt feel like we ever REALLY get to know any of the characters on a personal level. Yes, we get some flashback scenes for Mr. White, Mr. Orange, and Mr. Blonde that establish their characters in the past, but even then, its largely related to their abilities and criminals, rather than as individual people. Im just saying that, for a movie that is meant to be largely character-driven, given the format of the scenes, I just wish wed gotten a little bit more content from the characters, so the conversations they were having would carry more weight. Specifically, I wish wed gotten more from Mr. Orange and Mr. White to explain exactly why Mr. Orange was so onboard with protecting Orange over his long-time buddy.

Still, despite that criticism, the concept and plot of the move was really good. A heist-gone-wrong dealing with the aftermath is interesting. Having the characters realize that they were set-up and ratted out is interesting. Mr. Pink is the best character in the movie, because hes energetic, but hes also trying to be rational throughout the course of the film. Everyone else plays emotionally (or psychotically), and it leads to their downfall. You only guy who plays it smart is also the only one who manages to escape with his blood still securely inside his body. I think overall, this is a solid effort from Quentin Tarantino as one of his earlier works, but you can tell from later entries in his filmography that hes learned how to improve his directorial craft. Still fun, but weve seen better.

plasma
As the biggest hater of Steve Buscemi on this entire planet, I expected Reservoir Dogs to land hard in my Bottom 5. You have to understand, I fucking despised this movie the first time I watched it back in 2014. I didnt give a wet shit about the characters, the entire robbery felt uninspired, and the flashbacks were a drag. It felt like I had watched an adaptation of a college freshmans first-ever creative writing assignment: stylish along the surface, yet empty underneath.

But what a difference a rewatch makes. This time things clicked. Not in a OMGZ, this is one of the best movies of the 90s! kind of way but in a This isnt a bad way to spend 100 minutes on Labor Day weekend kind of way. My aforementioned gripes about the characters, plot, and structure dissolved by the time Mr. Blond arrived at the hideout.

And thenthings tapered off. The second half sputtered along with a series of backstory episodes, building toward the iconic Mexican standoff and the conclusion of Mr. White and Mr. Oranges touching love story.

Rather than hating this one, Im now lukewarm on it. The characters and scenario are more interesting on a second viewing, the performances are great (even Buscemi!), and the dialogue absolutely snaps. But, still, at its core this movie feels hollow to me. Strip away the style and dialogue, and youre left with the aftermath of a botched jewelry store robbery, starring a bunch of two-dimensional morons. C

rockus
A fine example for a directorial debut. A stripped down crime caper that plays to Tarantinos strengths, especially as a writer, but also exercises his talents for structuring, blocking, and utilizing a small number of locations as a director. Taking a pretty straight forward heist plot and flipping it around to deliver it in a fresh and inventive way. His talents for writing dialog and memorable characters offers a great showcase for his ensemble cast who all, outside of Tarantino himself, knock it out of the park.

Outlier Ranking
rockus: 182
plasma: 176
Poke: 168
ssbm: 157
Mythiot: 153
John: 143
Snake: 142
Vis: 141
seginus: 139
Karo: 133
Tangy: 127