Board 8 > Board 8 Watches and Ranks Organized Crime Films: THE RANKING

(+) Yeah! (+)

Tangy cashes in on my #30! At least two of us are happy...

Vegas Odds on #13:

+500 Casino
+500 L.A. Confidential
+750 Snatch
+1000 Carlito's Way
+1000 Training Day
+1000 City of God
+1250 Reservoir Dogs
+1500 The Departed
+300 Any Other Movie [+2000 if you guess correctly]

Leaderboard:

1. Inviso $2500 (+500 Gangster No., +1500 The Irishman, +500 White Heat)
2. Fortybelowsummer $2250 (+750 Sicario, +$1000 Gangs of New York, +500 White Heat)
3. BetrayedTangy: $1850 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 White Heat, +750 Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels)
4. PokeWars: $1700 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 Gangster No. 1, +600 Scarface (1932))
5. SSBM: $1000 (+$1000 Gangs of New York)

"and Robert is your fathers brother"

I've never seen that movie, but this quote alone made me laugh. This is clever humor.

Well obviously I'm not pleased with LS2SB going out this early, since (spoiler alert for my number 1), it was easily my favorite of the British crime movie we watched. Like, not even close.

Gonna guess Snatch at this point.

Yeah I figured Lock Stock would be divisive (a 1 and a 30 wow) and I assume Snatch will be the same :(

Guess Snatch for next.

Honestly when the list first dropped my gut reaction was to put Barrels on the bottom. The rewatch honestly helped immensely.

I also like that a lot of the remaining movies share directors. It makes for some interesting comparisons. I'm especially excited to see how Scorcese's movies shake out

Let's go L.A. Confidential again, but this time with a ridiculous cockney accent

13. Scarface (1983)
Directed by: Brian De Palma
Runtime: 2h 50m
Score: 158

plasma: 3
ssbm: 4
Tangy: 6
Karo: 9
seginus: 14
Mythiot: 16
rockus: 18
Snake: 19
John: 21
Poke: 22
Vis: 26

plasma
Props to Johnbobb for putting both Scarface movies on this list. I loved watching the remake after the 1932 original and seeing how certain plot points carried over while certain subplots (the family/sister subplot, most notably) got a makeover.

Anyway, here we see Al Pacino flexing his acting muscles for two-and-a-half hours in a crime movie that straddles the line between smart and pulpy. This was my second time watching Scarface (1983), and the action remained enjoyable while the actual plot came into sharper focus.

Now because I was paying closer attention, I have a couple nitpicks about the final act. First, I wanted a more tangible conclusion to Elviras storyline. She disappears after the dinner segment where Tony publicly rips her for being infertile, and theres no mention of her afterwards aside from Tony learning over the phone that shes gone somewhere. I dont buy the idea that a pampered drug-addict like Elvira would walk away from her lavish lifestyle and coke-dealing husband, no matter how bad he insults her in public. At the very least, I think she shouldve stormed back into the mansion prior to the raid and factored into the climax in some antagonistic way.

Another issue I had was with the scene where Tony shoots the car bomber whos trying to kill the UN Speaker. It feels so tacked-on, and Tonys sudden empathy for random women and children comes off as forced. I get that hes upset that his wife cant conceive, but seeing a sociopath like Tony turning all white knight didnt ring true to me.

If the writers needed an excuse for the mansion raid at the end, they couldve done better. Why not put Tony in a scenario where bombing the UN Speaker also kills Elvira? Set it up so Tony is conflicted about it. At first hes like, Fuck her for leaving me! Then he wavers, thinking about how she was his dream girl, and his dilemma swings back and forthmoney/career vs. loveuntil he finally shoots the bomber and has to pay the price later on when his boss Sosa finds out. Involving Elvira would have had much more impact than Tony sparing a random family we see on-screen for 20 seconds.

Wait, why am I complaining so much about this movie? I love it. Late-game issues aside, this is one of the most watchable movies on the list, and its loaded with memorable moments and performances. The world is yours until it isnt. A

ssbm
Rating: A

Tony Montana is probably my favorite character on this list. This is an almost 3-hour character study of Tony, going from his humble origins to having strong desires to achieving said desires to his downfall. It's fascinating to watch and Al Pacino does a great job embodying Tony Montana. There's so much to say about toxic masculinity and machismo with Tony Montana. I completely understand why he feels that way and the pains he goes through to achieve his desire, as well as the absolute boredom he feels once he achieves his goals. He's a fascinating character to watch.

The other characters show quite a bit of depth too. I especially like Gina, Tony's sister. You can really tell they're cut from the same cloth. It took me a while to understand why Tony is so protective of Gina and it was Manny's comment when driving Gina home that Gina is the only thing that Tony sees as purely good when Gina is so obviously not that. Again, it's great to watch. I even accept Tony's friendship with Manny. I thought the scene in the beginning where Manny tries to pick up women is pretty great and adds a lot of levity to both characters. I'm sold on all the character's performances in this movie. I think the only misstep is that Tony is somehow completely fine with his brother-in-law being chainsawed in the beginning of the movie. You would think he would be more upset about this!

I was basically hooked on this movie up to the Push It To The Limit scene (which, by the way, is just hilarious. I can't take that montage seriously with that music playing). Every scene is basically solid except maybe a few of the Tony/Elvira scenes. But the third act is pretty rough. Tony's coked up and I just can't find this compelling. I don't like characters who fall into a drug-induced descent in general. It makes them make stupid decisions and generally act hysterical. I understand that's the point, but I don't think it's satisfying at all. I also don't like the final scene of this movie, the famous "Say hello to my little friend!" scene. I'm just tired of fight scenes, especially gunfight scenes. They're just not interesting.

Tangy
Al Pacino trivializes the rest of the movie. Like the rest of Scarface could be complete dogshit and it would still crack my Top 10. His performance is just that entertaining. What I think makes this performance so engaging is specifically how he mixes douchiness with his charisma. Its like the perfect critique of toxic masculinity. Sure hes a fun quotable character with a lot of swagger, but hes still a despicable piece of shit who gets killed for it at the end. Scarface feels very much like a precursor to Wolf of Wall Street, pointing out that no matter how much fun you can be, excess is no way to go through life.

Karo
The story of the second most badass person named after a US state and his diminutive pal you really should say hi to.
We follow the life of this arrogant newbie mobster as he rises in the ranks of the underworld up until he gets his well-deserved comeuppance and one of the most famous quotes in all cinema.
Al Pacino's acting ability to make this somewhat cartoonish individual seem believable is what really carries the movie, and it certainly is a great improvement over the musty old film is it (loosely) based upon.

seginus
Pacino nails this iteration of Tony Montana, playing him as a crude hothead with a grudge against the world. ThisScarface of popular canon is encoded in everything from Illmatic to GTA to Hotline Miami. The aesthetic is iconic - the 80's glamour of white suits and gold chains, tropical paradise clashing with synthetic/neon decadence. This even has the original 'Push it to the Limit' montage! I forgot about that. However, for a 3-hour entry, it's stretched pretty thin and really only puts stock in the one character, memorable as he may be.

Mythiot
Takes the basic plot of the original Scarface and resets in the neon and cocaine-filled world of Miami with extremely entertaining results. Pacinos Tony is a little too cartoonish for my taste, but hes undeniably a blast to watch and I appreciate that hes given more sympathetic qualities than the original. There are quite a few things that irk me, such as the incest subtext in the original being made more explicit and the instigator of Tonys downfall ending up being his unwillingness to kill women and children, but overall, I had a lot of fun with this, and the ending is iconic for a reason.

rockus
Relentlessly 80s and fueled by a scenery chewing Pacino at his most Pacino De Palmas Scarface is all about excess. A pretty great film that I wish I liked more, and maybe some of that is unjustly marred by its frat guy worship its received over the years, but some of it still comes off rather silly like its goofy montaging. Still pretty deserving of its iconic status though.

Snake
While on a technical level the film drowns itself in excess and reverence to gangsters of old, name dropping actors like Cagney, Pacinos Tony Montana is the man that keeps the pace on track, an amazing character rife with great quotes and a greater paranoia, demonstrating a more 80s action-filled approach to the genre with bombastic frills that I feel occasionally lacks greater depth.

John
Al Pacino, an Italian actor famous for playing Italian gangsters, shows up here as a Cuban man, and nobody questions it because he just absolutely kills the role. Now Scarface is no Godfather, with that intricate narrative and complex system of inner-family politics driving it all. No, this is just Pacino turned up to 11 for 3 hours straight with barely a moment to calm down. It's hard to know what'll ever happen in this film, beyond the fact that it becomes obvious fairly early on that pretty much everyone in Tony Montana's life is going to die violently, and it will primarily be his own fault. This is surprisingly faithful to the '32 movie despite changing major aspects (and being twice the length). Tony is still creepy as hell toward his sister, and I'll give this one more credit over the original for not having his sister get an arbitrary change of heart at the least second. Tony Montana is a shitty, despicable person and he doesn't seem to realize it until about 10 minutes left, and then goes down in a massive blaze of... I wouldn't call it glory, but it's something. Just a very memorable and exciting gangster flick.

Poke
Gonna need a montage! I enjoyed the progression of Tony rising to the top, just to have an epic downfall. And the ending is iconic for a reason.

Inviso
Ive already had to say this several times in my write-ups (going chronologically), but I hate having to reference other movies when discussing a film in these rankings, because it spoils my later options. I kinda have to though, because my opinions on the Pacino version of Scarface are heavily influenced by several other films Ive already watched for this list. With both Godfathers, Ive seen an acting role that netted Al Pacino multiple academy award nominations. And with the original Scarface, Ive seen this story told (mostly) before. With that in mind, this version of Scarface just feels like a major step down, and I think it all revolves around a singular, central facet. Tony Montana is fucking AWFUL.

The first time were introduced to Tony Montana in this movie, hes being interrogated by customs and immigration, and hes incapable of behaving like a pleasant human being. He acts like a complete jackass who thinks hes too much of a tough guy to give these officers the time of day. And because hes the main character, were supposed to be on his side from this. Then he gets roped into the organized crime racket with an assassination, and Tony is justhes portrayed as far too cool, right off the bat. His emotions range from unflappable and idgaf, to violent outbursts to show how much of a badass he is. So, hes constantly talking shit to authority figures, or just generally staring down the barrel of a gun (or chainsaw) like its no big deal. Theres NEVER a moment early in the movie where we really get to feel like Tony is just a human being who has emotions and feelings, and care for anyone but himself.

Then at the fifty-minute mark, were introduced to his family, and even his mother knows hes a complete piece of shit. But this is the point where were introduced to Tonys little sister, who he was weird semi-incestuous fixation on. We really only see her in four scenes throughout the movie, yet for whatever reason, the writer decided to hang Tonys hat ENTIRELY on her in terms of showing that hes NOT a completely inhuman monster. My point about this first scene is that it comes about a third of the way into a three-hour movie, and its the FIRST were seeing of ANY sort of home life for Tony to show him as anything other than a generic movie badass.

Tony eventually runs his mouth and gets far too cocky, talking shit and just generally behaving like a total jackass, but because hes the main character, he survives two assassins gunning for him with machine guns, gets away, and then waltzing into his boss office, brandishing a gun, because he knows his boss set him up. Tony just power leveling his way to boss status by shooting his boss AND the crooked cop that happened to be meeting with him at the same time? Why not? Tony Montana is the ultimate badass, and the coolest person who ever lived. He even gets the boss own guards to turn their back on him, with a comedic musical beat as he offers one of them a job when the guard thinks hes going to get killed as well.

We then get a montage of Tonys rise. He buys his sister a hair salon, he gets married, and he buys a big mansion. Everything is great, but this is just a montage. It goes for five minutes, tops, and its the only time in the entire film that Tony isnt stoic or scowling or angry, so of course we cant highlight that for any period of time to give us a point where Tony has his rise and happiness, before that ultimate fall comes around. Nope, as soon as the montage hits, we get Tony being unsatisfied with how his wealth and power isnt getting him everything that he wants. Eventually, he even gets busted for tax fraud, when he has to get his money laundered outside of a bank. He of course handles his arrest with the kind of dignity you would expect, once again being cocky.

To get out of this, Tony has to pull an assassination for his cocaine supplier, but after spending the entire movie being an entitled, self-centered jackass, he finally has a change of heart when hes averse to allowing a bomb to kill a woman and children as bystanders. How heroic. What a positive character. Never mind that this comes after his basically shit talks and browbeats his best friend (through the WHOLE MOVIE, mind you) in the scenes leading up to this. And he openly calls his wife barren in a crowded restaurant, then acts offended that the wealthy diners would be upset by his drunken tirade. He calls himself the bad guy, because I guess if he owns it, that suddenly makes him the victim?

This all culminates in the final scene, where the drug sellers men storm Tonys house to kill him, but first they kill his sister (who was only there because Tony killed his best friend, thinking he was fooling around with her, when in fact theyd just gotten married), and his loyal guards (who Tony doesnt give a fuck about at that point). Of course, because hes Tony Montana, Tony grabs a machine gun with a mounted grenade launcher and takes out a dozen rival soldiers before running out of ammo and surviving NUMEROUS bullet wounds himself, only to die by a shotgun blast to the back. His death is glorified along the same lines as any Arnold Schwarzenegger action hero from the 80s.

Its just so over-the-top, and it feels like at some point, the writer or the producer or the director just fell so much in love with having this awesome dude who could do anything and say anything and get away with anything, that lost the plot. Given all of his character traits, it feels like we shouldnt WANT to root for Tonys success, yet by sheer virtue of how bombastic he is, were not given a choice in the matter. And that makes the whole movie (which ends with several scenes of him creeping on his half-naked sister, mind you) feel gross. Theres still a certain level of intrigue, and certain aspects of the movie are well-done, but I just didnt enjoy it at all.

This brings me back to the earlier point about Michael Corleone and the 1932 version of this film. Michael showed that Pacino is capable of restraint, and of crafting a character that can be intimidating without needing to be over-the-top in his glorification of violence. I can understand how, even though Michael is a bit cold and sociopathic, hes able to take control of his family and run it successfully. With Tony, hes just so crazy that youd think someone wouldve put a bullet in his head on a whim WELL before he had a cocaine-fueled gunfight in his mansion.

And in the 1932 version, the same plot points are hit, but I can give it a bit more credit because its half as long. The sister plotline doesnt feel as awkward (or incestuous) when you can understand the need for brevity. Plus, Tony Calmonte, while still hot-headed, has moments where he comes across as charming. Tony Montana, even in his interactions with his future wife, acts like a fucking misogynistic scumbag who treats her like a sex object long before theyre even together.

Oh, and the bosses are characterized differently as well. Lovo is a weasel who comes across as completely pathetic when Calmonte starts making moves and usurping his authority. So, when his hit fails and Calmonte comes to get him back, you can understand him being a coward in those last moments. But with Frank, hes painted as this no-nonsense hardass who can go toe-to-toe with Montana, only to act like a complete moron when his target walks into his base, OPENLY carrying a gun. It feels like Frank was even built as this badass to make Tony seem even MORE badass when he gets the better of him and has him crying on his knees.

Then theres the ending. Calmontes life is going smoothly because hes not a complete dickhead, overplaying his handbut everything falls apart when his fatal flaw (the quick temper) gets the better of him, and he unnecessarily kills his best friend. This starts his downfall, as his heartbroken sister rats him out to the police. He killed his best friend, and because of this, everyone else he cared about gets shot and killed in a police raid on his headquarters. Calmonte survives long enough to stumble downstairs and beg the cops not to shoot and kill him, because he's afraid. His bravado is gone, and hes killed when he runs for his life, and he gets gunned down by the police.

Montana? Despite his bad decisions, hes largely able to set himself up nicely through sheer force of will. He gets busted for tax evasion, but hes on-track to get away with it because his drug lord buddy can pull strings in the government. HIS fatal flaw, which leads to HIS downfall, is that he actually shows compassion at a time when, in-character, he really shouldnt give a shit. Hes punished for very briefly showing a shred of dignity by refusing to blow up a mother and her two children. Given how Montana is portrayed throughout the movie, it paints this one instance of human decency as a BAD thing, because its what upends the gravy train. But Montana still goes out in a heroic blaze of glory, fending off dozens of criminals before dying. The difference in those endings is so stark that its almost laughable.

Everything about this movie just glorifies Tony Montana, when hes not supposed to be the good guy. Thats just extremely frustrating from a narrative perspective, and even some positives like the music arent enough for me to really praise the film. I get that its beloved and critically well-received, but I can definitely understand why it has become such an oft-used movie poster on the wall of douchey frat bros.

Outlier Ranking
plasma: 131
rockus: 129
Poke: 120
ssbm: 119
Snake: 114
Vis: 114
John: 110
Mythiot: 107
Tangy: 102
Karo: 96
seginus: 93

And rockus has finally lost the lead! Still neck and neck, but plasma has overtaken, with Poke and ssbm close behind.

Scarface may have received drastically mixed opinions, but it received some opinions

Wild to go from LS&TSM only requiring one post to Scarface requiring five

you copied and pasted the same comments twice (Karo and Inviso)

Mr_Crispy posted...

you copied and pasted the same comments twice (Karo and Inviso)

oh jesus christ

good catch, no wonder it was so long, I reposted by far the longest write-up

now karo just gets a whole post all to himself there

Guess Carlito's Way.

I thought for sure there'd be a few more eliminations before this one. Sticking with Carlito's Way.

Oh phew. Yeah, it may not have been my least favorite movie, but Scarface was the most disappointing movie on this list for me, given how prominent it is in pop culture.

Gonna stick with guessing Snatch at this point.

Dang I thought that was a lock for Top 10

I'll go Reservoir Dogs

Nobody hit Scarface '83, and Vegas didn't even have it on the oddsboard. Not gonna lie, I thought Scarface was a lock to make the Top 10 based on its popularity, but much like Halloween (2018) in our 2010s Horror rankings, a flashy remake dropped sooner than expected.

Vegas Odds on #12:

+500 Casino
+500 L.A. Confidential
+750 Snatch
+1000 Carlito's Way
+1000 Training Day
+1000 City of God
+1250 Reservoir Dogs
+1250 The Departed
+300 Any Other Movie [+2000 if you guess correctly]

Leaderboard:

1. Inviso $2500 (+500 Gangster No., +1500 The Irishman, +500 White Heat)
2. Fortybelowsummer $2250 (+750 Sicario, +$1000 Gangs of New York, +500 White Heat)
3. BetrayedTangy: $1850 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 White Heat, +750 Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels)
4. PokeWars: $1700 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 Gangster No. 1, +600 Scarface (1932))
5. SSBM: $1000 (+$1000 Gangs of New York)

Inviso posted...

Oh phew. Yeah, it may not have been my least favorite movie, but Scarface was the most disappointing movie on this list for me, given how prominent it is in pop culture.

I loved that even though we were at opposite ends of the rankings for this one, we both hated that car bomb scene.

Also...

Inviso

We then get a montage of Tonys rise. He buys his sister a hair salon, he gets married, and he buys a big mansion. Everything is great, but this is just a montage. It goes for five minutes, tops, and its the only time in the entire film that Tony isnt stoic or scowling or angry, so of course we cant highlight that for any period of time to give us a point where Tony has his rise and happiness, before that ultimate fall comes around. Nope, as soon as the montage hits, we get Tony being unsatisfied with how his wealth and power isnt getting him everything that he wants.

I saw the "Push It To The Limit" montage as a commentary on greed and how it makes happiness short-lived. I get why you're unsatisfied with the brevity of it, but this period of Tony's life needs to be short; it's like a one-week vacation before you return to the office for the rest of the year.

Try Carlitos Way for next

I don't have too much to say about Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels. I'm glad there are some that prefer it to Snatch. I definitely thought it had the better ending, at least.

Pretty surprised that Scarface 1983 fell, but we're at a point where the next 3 movies are within 4 points of each other. It's getting close. I'm glad I'm not the only one that felt the last act was a little weak. I didn't mind the car bombing scene as much as others, but on retrospect, it is pretty odd to give Tony this shred of humanity. I do think there's quite a bit of humanity to Tony, but a lot of it has so much selfishness to it. The car bombing scene is oddly selfless of Tony.

Guessing Carlito's Way next.

Remember loving the 1983 Scarface. It did get a lot of bad reviews at the time though.

12. LA Confidential (1997)
Directed by: Curtis Hanson
Runtime: 2h 18m
Score: 151

Karo: 4
Myth: 5
plasma: 7
Poke: 7
Vis: 12
Snake: 12
Tangy: 14
rockus: 14
ssbm: 18
John: 28
seginus: 30

Karo
On the seedy streets of LA, Professor Plum and Derek Chauvin fight against department corruption and movie star prostitution.
It seems to me like the writers are too often trying to portray the honorable cop poorly, while portraying the violent sociopath cop as heroic somehow. I don't know if this is an artistic decision, or a sign of just how deeply the perversion of justice in this country runs.
It's a very good movie that is presented very well in most aspects and despite my discomfort at the presentation of some of the themes I found it quite enjoyable.

Myth
Fantastic mystery film following three L.A. cops of varying temperaments, a good cop, a bad cop, and a shady cop, none wholly sympathetic or unsympathetic, who attempt to solve a gruesome multiple homicide that turns out to be far more than it first appears, revealing layers of rot within the systems of the city. Russel Crowe and Guy Pearce are the standouts in their breakout roles, bringing depth to their assigned archetypes as well as Kim Basinger as the perfect femme fatale for this neo-noir. And of course, its got Danny DeVito as a tabloid editor, who cant love that?

plasma
The most forgettable movie on our list. No, really. I watched L.A. Confidential back in 2019 and couldnt remember anything about it when I started this project. Not a single plotline, scene, or frame. I couldnt even remember which actors were in it, and thats crazy considering it has a star-studded cast that includes Russell Crowe, the late Kevin Spacey, Guy Pearce, and the human scrotum known as James Cromwell.

Now this isnt to say L.A. Confidential is a bad movie. Its just one of those rare movies that does everything well but nothing spectacularly. I literally dont have a bad thing to say about it. Sure, I could nitpick things like Danny DeVitos character being annoying or some rushed character development on the part of the big three (Crowe/Spacey/Pearce), but this is a tight, clever, entertaining flick. The only problem is that it doesnt have that feature film feel. It feels more like a two-hour episode of The Shield, and theres no signature moment or quotable dialogue or any WOW-factor. L.A Confidential is simply a good all-around movie.

Now before I forget everything from my rewatch, I want to point out that I love how meticulous this movie is. Every character serves an important role within the plot. Even Danny DeVitos hacky journalist character, who appears to be a throwaway court jester, ends up being the driving force behind the pivotal confrontation between Crowe and Pearce.

And how good is Guy Pearce in this movie? He plays the by-the-book, snooty officer so well that I actually found myself rooting for him more than Russell Crowes likable, meatheated mommy-avenger. Pearce and Crowe are fantastic foils to one another, one calculating and political while the other is impulsive and politically indifferent. I love that they set aside their differences (and their wacky love triangle) to take out the corrupt cops and save the day with that department cover-up. The ending is great with Pearce compromising on doing whats right so he can do whats best for the LAPD, while Crowe somehow survives and rides off into the Arizona sunset with Not-Veronica Lake.

Bonus points for that clever interrogation scene midway through the movie. Pearce manipulating the suspects while Crowe storms in with brute force to obtain the info they needed was great. B+

Poke
Want to add a big ball of fun energy? Just throw Russell Crowe into a film. And give him or have him be the foil to a partner. It works in so many films, and this is no different. And of course, the rest of the cast is great. I love the noir feel to it.

Vis
Its really weird having seen this after playing L.A. Noire, because you can tell that game was directly inspired by this movie. Ill give a ton of credit though, because you finally have a mafia movie that (perhaps by removing Paul Guilfoyles mob boss in the opening scenes) IS set in the 40s/50s, but ISNT set in New York/New Jersey, or Las Vegas. It just added a new setting that hadnt really popped up on the list before, which opened up a bunch of possibilities for itself. The rich pimp in Beverly Hills, the slimy tabloid writer, and the variety of movie star prostitutes made for unique plot points that kept the tension up because they allowed for all sorts of red herrings, right up until the end of the film. Plus, I liked the fact that the organized criminal operation in the movie was the police force themselves, which added another element of who are the good guys here?

I will say that the thing holding this film back is something small and kinda stupid, if Im being honest. But you essentially have a trio of protagonists in this movie. First, you have Exley, who stands out as unique; hes the by-the-book cop with clean, slicked-back hair and glasses. But then you have Kevin Spacey and Russell Crowe, both having short brown hair, and both fitting into the role of cop that isnt exactly CORRUPT, but definitely willing to cut a lot of corners to get the job done. So you have these two characters that look relatively similar and fulfill a similar role, and then you throw in like three different crimes that interconnect with one another, and I have no idea whos supposed to be working which case, and when. I understood the plot by the end of the movie, but it definitely took me a while in the middle to understand the plot because the characters just felt like the overlapped a bit too much.

Snake
Explores the themes of police violence & corruption through a masterful use of location, with strong performances that run the gamut from menacing, sleazy, self-referential, powerful, and heartbreaking. Set in a well-used 1950s, the film is anchored by strong work from leads Kevin Spacey & Russell Crowe, who offer up two of the best performances of their careers (but fuck Kevin Spacey anyway). Its a popcorny sort of movie, but artful at the same time.

Tangy
Two words. Danny. DeVito. I swear to god, I am contractually obliged to like a movie more just based on his inclusion. This man is one of my favorite character actors (which is really impressive considering hes sitting next to Joe Pesci) and its always a treat to see him pop up. Oh yeah? The rest of the movie? Its good. Im a sucker for anything noir already, but its compounded by a fantastic cast. Spacey might be a disgusting scumbag in real life, but hes fucking great at playing one too. Hes just so charismatic, it almost makes you forget his character is the posterboy for Flaws of the Police Force (nice job JB on including them with Organized Crime, that led to it being a very cool twist for me.). Russell Crowes also here and he pretty much just plays Sonny Corleone, but for the LAPD as he ran around beating the shit out of everybody. Now the only one I cant get behind is Guy Pearce. Seriously no matter how hard I try to like this guy, I cant find a single performance of his I even remotely enjoyed. He always just feels completely out of place, here hes supposed to play a serious guy who wants things done right, but he over extends and just walks around like he has a stick up his ass. Hell when Basinger is seducing him, he looks completely disinterested! Like what are you doing dude? Anyway yeah Confidential was a fun time and honestly I wouldnt be surprised if I watched it again here soon.

rockus
A fine throwback and twisty neo-noir about police corruption and Hollywoods underbelly. Probably the first thing I noticed Guy Pearce from but what a great first impression it makes for him. And boy is Kim Basinger perfectly cast in this. I would have liked to see it deal more with how the tabloid news is utilized to push a police narrative but a pretty great picture nonetheless.

ssbm
Rating: C

This is a good plot. I always like conspiracy/detective movies where the detective is trying to unravel something and it turns out to be this large conspiracy. Exley is a good detective to follow. He's pristine and clean, but learns throughout the movie that he needs to take drastic actions to achieve his goals. You know who I don't like? Bud. He really doesn't work in a post-ACAB world where he's playing Russian Roulette with inmates and hangs a lawyer by his leg outside a window. Like....what? It's ridiculous. I especially "like" when he doctors a crime scene, something that's coded as "corrupt cop" in every other movie, but is played straight here.

Thankfully, there's not too much Bud. Exley is good and I even like Jack, even though Jack is kind of a silly character. It's kinda hard to take any scene he does seriously due to the nature of his character. But yeah, the plot and Exley does a lot of heavy lifting here. There is a really strange scene of Exley being seduced by a prostitute who is also Bud's girlfriend. Exley just...agrees to sleep with her and the prostitute...agrees to sleep with him. I feel like neither character has any reason to follow through with this, but it gives the villain some pictures to get Bud to try and kill Exley. Pretty weird scene. Not as weird as all the Bud scenes.

John
This, more than pretty much any other movie on this list I can think of, defines the well-made, clean-cut crime film that, despite being extremely well-polished, just didn't grab me in any way. It's objectively a solid movie, but I probably won't remember the names of any character by tomorrow except Rollo Tomasi (which doesn't really count, does it?)

seginus
Right away I have two issues with this movie: Kevin Spacey and Russell Crowe. Never liked these guys, even before the Spacey stuff. To be fair, they're cast as douchebags here and I can't argue they don't fit the roles. But both of them in one movie is too much for me, I can only tolerate one at a time. Beyond that, L.A.Confidential is a boilerplate noir aimed at Hollywood's sleazy upper crust, faithful to its Raymond Chandler/Dashiell Hammett influences but comes off as a cornier version. It frequently whiffs on the hardboiled dialogue with lines like "Go back to Jersey, sonny. This is the city of angels, and you ain't got any wings", often dragging the tough guy acts down to a level of parody that I don't think was intentional. Didn't work for me!

Outlier Ranking
plasma: 136
rockus: 131
John: 126
Poke: 125
ssbm: 125
Snake: 114
Vis: 114
Mythiot: 114
seginus: 111
Karo: 108
Tangy: 104

Guess Carlito's Way.

Guess Carlitos Way since it's least deserving of top 10 imho

Still on Carlito's Way.

Let's go Casino

I'll guess Carlito's Way.

Everyone was too busy hating on Carlito's Way to guess L.A. Confidential, so the House wins again!

Vegas Odds on #11:

+500 Casino
+500 Snatch
+750 Carlito's Way
+750 Training Day
+750 City of God
+1000 Reservoir Dogs
+1000 The Departed
+300 Any Other Movie [+2000 if you guess correctly]

Leaderboard:

1. Inviso $2500 (+500 Gangster No., +1500 The Irishman, +500 White Heat)
2. Fortybelowsummer $2250 (+750 Sicario, +$1000 Gangs of New York, +500 White Heat)
3. BetrayedTangy: $1850 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 White Heat, +750 Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels)
4. PokeWars: $1700 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 Gangster No. 1, +600 Scarface (1932))
5. SSBM: $1000 (+$1000 Gangs of New York)

Yeah, LA Confidential is basically a good and unmemorable movie. I do like that plasma pointed out the interrogation scene. Its nice to have a fully non-physical interrogation scene. Until Bud comes in and fucks it up. Fuck Bud.

Im going to go for a gamble and pick Godfather Part 2.

11. Training Day (2001)
Directed by: Antoine Fuqua
Runtime: 2h 2m
Score: 150

ssbm: 3
Snake: 7
Vis: 10
Karo: 10
John: 11
Tangy: 12
plasma: 15
Myth: 17
Poke: 18
seginus: 18
rockus: 29

ssbm
Rating: A

The two main characters - Alonzo and Jake - are just great. They complement each other so well. Alonzo, of course, just steals the spotlight in every single scene he's in, but Jake does a great job of being a likable protagonist. He's an honest cop, never compromising on his morals. All three acts of the movie have great scenes in them, with the second act being really strong, when Jake learns that Alonzo is corrupt and he's been grooming him to become the next Alonzo. I love the conversation Alonzo has with Jake about getting Jake on his side and the entire scene where Jake has a gun to Alonzo's face is excellent. The intro to the movie is great too. It does a great job of making you feel completely lost and dancing to the beat of Alonzo's drum. And, of course...smiles and cries. Jake kinda overacted on being high, but it's still a really great scene.

I think the movie kinda wobbles around the end. The confrontation with Jake and Alonzo, especially inside Alonzo's home, is great. The confrontation inside the Jungle where everyone's watching...ehhh, it's starting to lose me. I also think the rape subplot and the Chicanos subplot mixing together is a little too convenient for my taste. But those are all minor issues. The first two-thirds and even the last third is just really entertaining. What a day.

Snake
Man I love Denzel Washington in this; a truly twisty movie full of dark turns, nasty antagonists, a slightly less-than-relatable anti-hero completely turning the whole concept on its head, and Ethan Hawke as the glue that holds it all together. It's one of the most compelling police procedurals I've ever seen. I used to be a little down on this film actually, but this recent rewatch has completely changed my mind. It's a damn masterpiece.

Vis
I know this has come up a few times on the list already, what with police corruption and all, but it was nice to see another film where the organized crime in question were the police themselves. Alonzo Harris is a bad motherfucker who views himself as above the law because he himself is the law, and we get to watch him just casually commit increasingly horrifying crimes as the movie goes along, because theres no one stopping him. But unlike some of these other movies where they PURELY idolize their horrific, villainous main character, were treated to Harris actions through the lens of a nave and pure Jake Hoyt. Hes rightfully disgusted by Harris from minute one (forcing him to take drugs), and as such, we as viewers can latch onto him as the hero that needs to defeat the evil at the end (whether he succeeds or not). I just found the plot engaging, especially how they seed doubt of Harris infallibility throughout the film, until he reaches his ultimate downfall. Its very well-told in that regard.

Karo
When a young rookie officer is paired up with an eccentric detective, it makes you think its going to be a funny buddy cop movie, but it then goes down some dark paths that are very on the nose about policing in america.
You see, Alonzo seems like just an ordinary cop to me. Albeit one who doesnt bother wearing the mask. 'who's he gonna complain to?' 'we're the police, we do whatever the fuck we want!' Sounds about right.
It's a decently made film that manages to subvert my expectations while helping educate a public brainwashed by police propaganda TV crime serials.

John
One of the best things Training Day does is its examination of the different levels of organized crime. Instead of diving into the individual tiers within the mafia as some of the more dedicated mob films do, Training Day portrays "the Russians" as an almost invisible force that kinda floats behind everything, not showing up visually until the very last scene. It portrays different levels of street crime, from the nobodies jumping women on the street to the smaller gangs to entire communities of people run, at least in part, under gang control. There's the low-level corrupt cops, the corrupt ex-cops, the upper echelon corrupt cops that view themselves as invincible, and then there's Alonzo himself, who in his last shout tries to declare himself above everyone else in the film's most famous line. The film attempts to ask a lot of questions about which is the worst of any two evils and how far you can go while still calling yourself "the good guy" in your own head. It can't answer all those questions, and it knows it can't, so ultimately Ethan Hawke is left a much more broken man for it at the end of the day.

Tangy
Who doesnt love this movie? This is another one of those movies thats just completely carried by one actor and in this case its Denzel. Honestly Alonzo Harris is one of my favorite types of villains. Hes so scummy, but you just cant help but to enjoy his charisma. It creates this unique dynamic to the character that makes you want to trust him, even though you know its a bad idea. It all has tremendous payoff too when we finally see his ego collapse upon itself. Everything else is solid too, but Denzel has the spotlight on him whenever hes on screen.

plasma
The film equivalent of the Falcons-Patriots Super Bowl where the Falcons jumped out to a massive 25-point lead, only to choke everything away in the fourth quarter.

This was my second time watching Training Day, and even though I was prepared for the movie to repeatedly shit its pants over the final forty minutes, I somehow managed to be more disappointed this time around.

This movie is Top 5 material early onDenzel delivers an otherworldly performance, the camerawork casts a hypnotic spell, and this gritty, nasty-ass portrayal of LA legit scares me. Its easy to empathize with Ethan Hawkes character as his eyes wander in terror as he sees more and more of the nightmare he signed up for. Everything is visceral and mesmerizing, and the dialogue pours hard truth over it all.

Then the bathtub scene happens. Beaten and handcuffed, Ethan Hawke is about to be executed at gunpoint. A good protagonist would fight back or devise a clever solution to save himself. Instead, hes rescued by plot convenience and horrendous writing. Its revealed that the wallet he picked up hours ago just so happens to belong to the cousin of the gangster about to execute hima gangster who lives among countless others in the SECOND-LARGEST city in the country. This stroke of unfathomable luck saves Hawkes life and sends him safely out the door. Fuck this script.

Things dont recover after that. The entire film soon devolves into a cut-rate action flick, complete with broken logic (Denzel tries to murder Hawke with a shotgun, but DOESNT push him off the roof? Seriously?), broken physics (a rear windshield explodes when Hawke is thrown against it), and broken realism (that final standoffmy word). Its an agonizing meltdown, and not even Blurry-Naked Eva Mendes can take the pain away.

What baffles me is how such a snappy, gritty crime drama can implode like Training Day does. Did anyone critique the script before this thing went into production? Did anyone call out Wallet Ex Machina? Did anyone scribble red ink over the ending? Seriously, anyone?

Im starting to wonder if Training Day is secretly a bad movie thats propped up by Denzels incredible performance. Trouble is, Im not watching it again to find out. B-

Myth
Denzel Washington has got to be pretty strong to carry this film like he does, elevating the rest of the material around him like only a great actor can. To be fair, its hardly mediocre, a very well-done story of Ethan Hawkes rookie cop getting hands-on experience seeing how effectively a manipulative psychopath can abuse his authority, getting further into danger the longer the day goes. That said, its significantly better whenever the focus is on Denzel.

Poke
A riveting thriller that doesn't have things laid out as good and evil. Just a whole of grey....matter as it's spilled. Heyo!

seginus
Hawke and Washington make a dynamic pairing in this extreme good cop/bad cop routine. It's very straightforward in its approach, there's not much mystery concealing the corrupt Alonzo. It's more like he rides a 'hide in plain sight' strategy to a hubristic downfall. This has one excellent scene where the gangsters call the girl Hawke saved and she starts lying about ditching class, great tension there. Practically became a horror movie. But over time I kept bumping this down the list, as it doesn't leave much lasting impression. Call me crazy but when it comes to Fuqua I still prefer Brooklyn's Finest.

rockus
Ethan Hawke and Denzel Washington are good in this but a lot of Washingtons sinister bravado gets downright silly at times. Decent enough since Im kind of partial to films that take place in condensed periods of time and it leans heavily on the strengths of its two leads, especially Washington. But would it kill them to hold on a shot for longer than two or three seconds and maybe give these two great actors a little room to breathe for their performances?

Outlier Ranking
rockus: 149
plasma: 140
ssbm: 133
Poke: 132
John: 126
Mythiot: 120
Snake: 118
seginus: 118
Vis: 115
Karo: 109
Tangy: 105

any rockus takes the lead again! It was nice while it lasted, huh?

Your top 10!

Carlito's Way (1993)
Casino (1995)
City of God (2002)
Goodfellas (1990)
Pulp Fiction (1994)
Reservoir Dogs (1992)
Snatch (2000)
The Departed (2006)
The Godfather (1972)
The Godfather, Part II (1974)
Training Day (2001)

Well...I was right that it would be an outside pick, but I got the movie wrong.

Might as well go over my total list.

1. ???
2. Donnie Brasco
3. Training Day
4. Scarface 1983
5. White Heat
6. ???
7. Lucky Number Slevin
8. ???
9. ???
10. ???
11. ???
12. ???
13. Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels
14. Miller's Crossing
15. ???
16. Sicario
17. Little Caesar
18. LA Confidential
19. Gangs of New York
20. Scarface 1932
21. The Untouchables
22. Battles Without Honor and Humanity
23. The Public Enemy
24. Gangster No. 1
25. ???
26. The Irishman
27. ???
28. American Gangster
29. The Italian Job
30. Once Upon A Time in America

Not great! At least I got my #1 in and a lot of my "B" movies are in. But we also got some stinkers from the bottom 6 still in too.

1.
2.
3.
4.
5. Sicario
6. Scarface (1983)
7.
8.
9. Once Upon a Time in America
10.
11.
12. Training Day
13. The Untouchables
14. L.A. Confidential
15.
16. Scarface (1932)
17. Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels
18. The Italian Job
19.
20. Gangster No. 1
21. Gangs of New York
22. White Heat
23. Donnie Brasco
24. American Gangster
25. Lucky Number Slevin
26. Battles Without Honor and Humanity
27. The Irishman
28. The Public Enemy
29. Miller's Crossing
30. Little Caesar

Guess keep guessing Carlito's Way.

1. ???
2. ???
3. Gangster No. 1
4. L.A. Confidential
5. ???
6. ???
7. Donnie Brasco
8. ???
9. Scarface (1983)
10. Training Day
11. ???
12. ???
13. Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels
14. ???
15. ???
16. Gangs of New York
17. Once Upon a Time in America
18. The Untouchables
19. American Gangster
20. Lucky Number Slevin
21. Miller's Crossing
22. The Public Enemy
23. The Irishman
24. Sicario
25. ???
26. Battles Without Honor and Humanity
27. Scarface (1932)
28. Little Caesar
29. The Italian Job
30. White Heat

Another movie I like a lot.

Guessing Carlitos Way again

Hmm I'll go Reservoir Dogs

Bettors were too busy smoking PCP to wager on Training Day. Top 10 time--let's do this!

Vegas Odds on #10:

+500 Casino
+500 Snatch
+750 Carlito's Way
+750 City of God
+1000 Reservoir Dogs
+1000 The Departed
+1500 The Godfather Pt. II
+2000 Goodfellas
+2000 Pulp Fiction
+2500 The Godfather

Leaderboard:

1. Inviso $2500 (+500 Gangster No., +1500 The Irishman, +500 White Heat)
2. Fortybelowsummer $2250 (+750 Sicario, +$1000 Gangs of New York, +500 White Heat)
3. BetrayedTangy: $1850 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 White Heat, +750 Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels)
4. PokeWars: $1700 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 Gangster No. 1, +600 Scarface (1932))
5. SSBM: $1000 (+$1000 Gangs of New York)

Oh damn, the few times I forget to vote and I would have at least got one right!

Let's go with Snatch in the 10 slot.

1. ???
2. Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels
3. Gangs of New York
4. ???
5. ???
6. The Untouchables
7. Scarface (1932)
8. ???
9. ???
10. Training Day
11. ???
12. L.A. Confidential
13. Donnie Brasco
14. ???
15. White Heat
16. ???
17. American Gangster
18. ???
19. The Italian Job
20. The Irishman
21. Lucky Number Slevin
22. ???
23. Once Upon a Time in America
24. The Public Enemy
25. Miller's Crossing
26. Scarface (1983)
27. Sicario
28. Little Caesar
29. Gangster No. 1
30. Battles Without Honor and Humanity

Try Snatch again