Board 8 > Board 8 Watches and Ranks Organized Crime Films: THE RANKING

(+) Yeah! (+)

ssbm
Rating: C-

This movie is surprisingly pretty funny. The movie even recognizes this, calling Tony a colorful character. Sometimes, it's a little too funny. There's an immigrant secretary character that's kind of mean-spirited towards the immigrant. He has some pretty funny lines, but there's a scene where he's trying to take a message for Tony. While this is going on, a gunfight breaks out at the cafe. Like bullets are being sprayed everywhere. And the secretary just goes on, trying to get this message for Tony. It's a little too ridiculous.

Tony is one of the few protagonists on this list that doesn't even attempt to have any humanity to him whatsoever. That doesn't make him entirely unlikable. Like I said, he's got some good one-liners. I'm not even sure what pushes him to be so ruthless other than that "THE WORLD IS YOURS" sign outside his bedroom. I suppose Tony works as a force-of-nature character and the movie does a good job showing how the world reacts to Tony and his business. I don't really feel much for the other characters other than Tony and his secretary. The entire subplot of his sister, Cesca, falling for his friend, Guarino, just completely falls flat to me. His boss, Johnny, and his girlfriend, Poppy, are fine, but they don't leave an impression on me either. My main enjoyment came from Tony.

Also, all the 1930s movies have some degree of "these people are bad people, don't follow in their footsteps." Like, very explicitly, usually as disclaimer at the beginning or end of the movie. This movie goes one step further and says "This movie is to show the government the problem of mobs. What are YOU doing to solve the issues of mobs?" It's wild.

Snake
Pushing the boundaries of violence for its time, Scarfaces healthy doses of black humor, great character work, and what often seems like non-stop gunfire makes Scarface a thrilling ride no matter the time period you watch it in now.

Poke
Let that be a lesson to all of you. Don't get involved with a gangster's sister. A lot of back and forth slaying of gang members. Oh and Angelo. Dear, sweet Angelo. I felt like Manuel from Fawlty Towers was inspired by Vince Barnett's portrayal. Too funny seeing him still try to talk on the phone with bullets spraying everywhere.

John
There's a moment in this film where a bar is being shot up and one man on the phone keeps trying to repeatedly shout over the phone that he can't hear what the other person is saying while bulletholes are popping up all around him, and another person in the bar picks up a glass pitcher and throws it at a window that is almost entirely shattered already in order to create a hole to shoot through that he obviously didn't need, and I'm ultimately not sure if this was supposed to be a comedy. I wouldn't THINK so given it's super serious message at the beginning about how this film exists specifically to fix the terrible gang problem, but if it's not a comedy, then goddamn was some of this unintentionally comedic. There's a good reason most of Howard Hanks' best works are comedies. The assassination in the bowling alley shot is so good though.

Karo
The story of not-Al Capone and his misadventures in the Chicago booze business.
After being treated to a self-righteous studio message telling me the 'proper' way to interpret the story as if I'm a fucking cretin who can't think for myself, we get an old and generic mobster movie that is inferior in every aspect to the storied film whose name it shares.
Half the cast are Italian ethnic stereotypes, like these 'mamma mia, I wanna lots-a the spaghetti' caricatures. I half expected Charles Martinet to hop out from behind a bush and squeal 'its-a me, mario!'
After a bunch of typical prohibition hijinks, we get a bizarre ending where Tony murders his sister's husband which leads to her falling in love with him or something? I'm all for a forbidden romance plot, but this is foisted upon us arbitrarily 5 minutes before the movie ends with no previous hinting that Cesca held any real feelings for her brother. It is impossible to take seriously.

Outlier Ranking
rockus: 118
ssbm: 96
John: 95
Snake: 94
plasma: 92
Poke: 87
Mythiot: 81
Tangy: 80
seginus: 78
Vis: 76
Karo: 76

Think about all the money you sad degenerates wagered on Scarface '32, only to jump ship at the last moment. But, hey, at least somebody got paid. Pokewars, the world is yours.

Vegas Odds on #16:

+500 White Heat
+1000 Gangs of New York
+1000 Casino
+1000 L.A. Confidential
+1250 Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels
+1250 Snatch
+1250 Training Day
+1500 Reservoir Dogs
+1500 City of God
+300 Any Other Movie [+2000 if you guess correctly]

Leaderboard:
1) Inviso $2000 (+500 Gangster No., +1500 The Irishman)
2) PokeWars: $1700 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 Gangster No. 1, +600 Scarface (1932))
3) Fortybelowsummer (+750 Sicario)
4) BetrayedTangy: $600 (+600 The Public Enemy)

Sometimes I do little pencil sketches based on black-and-white movies, here's the one I did for Scarface - https://imgur.com/a/QeRxU0S (Boris Karloff @ 49:47)

I held fast.

I'll guess Carlito's Way.

Seginustemple posted...

Sometimes I do little pencil sketches based on black-and-white movies, here's the one I did for Scarface - https://imgur.com/a/QeRxU0S (Boris Karloff @ 49:47)

oh damn, that's really really good

Impressive....very nice

Of course I'm too busy to make a bet when it comes, lol. I was rooting for 30's Scarface to outlast 80's Scarface even though I knew it wouldn't happen. Ah well.

I'll guess Carlito's Way.

Seginustemple posted...

Sometimes I do little pencil sketches based on black-and-white movies, here's the one I did for Scarface - https://imgur.com/a/QeRxU0S (Boris Karloff @ 49:47)

Amazing. Gives me the vibe of a crime noir graphic novel. You should team up with Ed Brubaker.

I hesitate to pick White Heat again, but it has to go out eventually. So yeah let's just go with that.

I think James Cagneys legendary badassery will continue to carry White Heat further beyond expectations (but not too much further).

I'll take Gangs of New York for next.

plasmabeam posted...

Amazing. Gives me the vibe of a crime noir graphic novel. You should team up with Ed Brubaker.

Thank you! I wish I could render originals that well, I just copy what's onscreen.

Sticking with L.A. Confidential

I still can't believe Gangs of New York placed higher than The Irishman. Outside of DDL, that movie is just alright.

thesmark posted...

I still can't believe Gangs of New York placed higher than The Irishman. Outside of DDL, that movie is just alright.

Yeah, I thought GoNY would easily be the first Scorsese film to drop.

Seginustemple posted...

Sometimes I do little pencil sketches based on black-and-white movies, here's the one I did for Scarface - https://imgur.com/a/QeRxU0S (Boris Karloff @ 49:47)

Looks killer.

There it is. Its a good movie, I probably undershot it a bit. I do like Tony quite a bit as a protagonist.

That sketch is incredible.

Gangs of New York sounds about right.

Gonna guess White Heat

Also, I just realized me and Karo stayed tied for outlier by going to exact opposite extremes with our rankings on that one.

16. Gangs of New York (2002)
Directed by: Martin Scorsese
Runtime: 2h 47m
Score: 182

Vis: 3
Myth: 11
Poke: 12
Karo: 16
rockus: 16
Seginus: 17
John: 19
ssbm: 19
Tangy: 21
Snake: 24
plasma: 24

Vis
Coming so late in the list (which is surprising, given that its still twenty years old at this point), Gangs of New York really stands out on this list as a time period untouched up to this point, yet Academy Award winner Martin Scorcese (who I BELIEVE appears five times on this list in total) manages to go outside his wheelhouse to tell a historical narrative thats compelling from start to finish. Look at the level of talent in this film, too: helmed by a pair of academy award winners (well, future winners, in Leos case), plus a bunch of nominees, all performing what is essentially a Shakespearean tragedy for almost everyone involved. Its amazing. I love the fact that the films central conflict doesnt even matter. Theres all this talk about the titular gangs of New York, jockeying for position and pride and honor and all that, and the climax comes down to the city getting pissed the fuck off about being conscripted to fight in a Civil War they have no stake in.

I love the character work in this film though, across the board. Johnny is perfect as an upjumped thug who tries to push far beyond his means, and then gets pissy when his buddy is just naturally better than him. Johnnys feebles attempts to achieve even HALF of what Amsterdam effortlessly accomplishes lead to his betrayal, and for what? He winds up a sacrifice in the cold war between Amsterdam and Bill, killed in a way by both men. Jack and McGloin are amazingly portrayed as well, serving as Bills pet prizes for winning his war against Priest Vallon, and they just come across as perfectly pathetic throughout the film. Meanwhile, Monk stands tall, refusing to be anyones bitch, and even in death, he leaves the film with his pride intact. And Jenny is fierce, yet tender at the same time, struggling with her loyalties.

Of course, everything comes down to the two leads. Amsterdam does the standard organized crime plot of being the young upstart, brought into the organization and quickly catching the eye of the boss. You have the added wrinkle of him essentially being a spy for himself, but I enjoy the conflict of seeing him grow to respect and appreciate Bill, to the point where he saves his life and has to question the festering animosity in his heart.

But Bill is the pice de resistance of the film. Hes a man who believes in honor and going to war and earning your stripes by being willing to die for your country, and he even shows enough respect to his fallen foe (Priest Vallon) to treat his memory as sacred. But at the same time, we see Bill fighting in a cowardly fashion throughout the film: sneak attacking the priest, attacking Monk from behind, guerrilla attacking Amsterdam during their final battle. You can tell he has a cowardly streak, but he WANTS to be the big, brave boss. He constantly reminds us that his FATHER fought and died for Americabut thats not HIM fighting. Its just really interesting to see that dichotomy of his character, and that MAKES the film for me, more than anything else.

Myth
Yes, this film has its fair share of flaws. The romantic subplot is half-baked, the last third isnt as strong as the earlier parts, and it doesnt go as deep into its themes as it could have. But damn it, I still adore this film. Scorsese makes Civil War-era New York come alive in a way that rivals Peter Jacksons Lord of the Rings. The sets and atmosphere suck you into the era, Daniel Day-Lewis is fantastic as bigoted mustache-twirling, yet complexly pitiable villain Bill the Butcher, and not everyone likes Leo DiCaprio in this film, but I enjoyed his quest for revenge and by extension the right of the Irish to live in America without harassment. It never gets better than the opening battle with that great theme and a fighter named Hellcat Maggie who is so outlandish she would been put in this film if she werent a real person, but its a blast as it is, even if it could have been a true masterpiece with another rewrite.

Poke
A time period not as saturated as say, the Prohibition era. Which is refreshing. A look at that time when scores were settled not with machine guns, but hatchets and butcher's knives.

Karo
The epic tale of a little boy who tragically lost his father to that time they did braveheart shit to porno music in the middle of manhattan.
Young Amsterdam then swears revenge on the group of pokemon antagonists who murdered daddy, which he attempts to do by joining up with the group and saving their leader's life. This was all part of THE PLAN where he would gain Bill's trust so he could clumsily throw a knife at him and miss. What a fucking moron.
How the story features all these 19th century MAGA lunatics makes the film probably more relevant today than the year it was actually made, and I found it quite interesting if maybe a mite too long.

Rockus
Probably a weaker Scorsese film, which just means its pretty good instead of outstanding. Daniel Day-Lewis is incredible though Ive always felt that Cameron Diaz was probably miscast. Great gallery of whos who faces among its supporting cast from Brendan Gleeson and Jim Broadbent to John C. Reilly among others. Wish Scorsese would have tackled more pre-20th century periods in his work because I love the production details here.

seginus
Scorsese's grisly period piece commands a loaded cast, but with the drawback that neither Diaz nor DiCaprio can truly suppress their California drawl from chillaxing its way into the dialogue. Oim a foighter, oil kick yer arse from the 10 to the 405 all the way to Mulholland where you belong, dude! Anyway, this is another avenge-the-father quest set to slow burn - to me it's not totally clear why Amsterdam takes so long to get his revenge but I guess it doesn't matter. One thing I noticed this time around was all the irony around the use of the term 'Native American' when referring to the protestant faction. 'Natives beware foreign invaders!'. Kinda funny there, huh? Some of this blood must go right to the elevator in The Shining. Good movie, not quite great. It feels less immersive on rewatch.

John
I'm very glad I included this film on the organized crime list, specifically because despite the subject matter seeming a little different on paper, it still has that distinct feeling of a Scorsese mob film. These brutes in the mid-1800s New York slums are a fary cry from the 1950s Italian mafia, but all the pieces are still there: corruption in the politcians and police, smaller crime families absorbed into larger factions, and perhaps most importantly, the always-notable "otherness" that leads to gangs of outsiders forming. In the 1800s here, it's the immigrated Irish rather than Italians, as history repeats itself. Now this is nowhere near Scorsese's best works, but it still has some powerful messages to put across and presents them in a brutally violent way.

ssbm
Rating: C-

This movie, in theory, should be up my alley. I love learning about Civil War-era America and Scorsese is a director I can trust to do historical movies with flair. It's got Daniel Day-Lewis and Leonardo DiCaprio. Well, Day-Lewis is excellent as Bill. I especially like his speech to Amsterdam about his father and then immediately turning on Amsterdam in the next scene, branding him and throwing him away. I also like Bill just taking Amsterdam under his wing and how he treats someone as a squire to him. Amsterdam...not so good. I dunno what it is about Leo's acting, but it just feels off in this movie. I also feel he kinda has "plot armor" or, at least, "plot significance." I don't see why all the gangs rally to Amsterdam around the end of the movie other than the fact that he's the Priest's son.

The politics is pretty great, especially everything with Boss Tweed. I loved the scenes where McGinn is getting elected to Sheriff. I like the Civil War scenes, at least up until the Draft Riots. I liked the Draft Riots at first, but there's something that really bothers me about it overtaking the Amsterdam/Bill showdown at the climax of the movie. I get the symbolism of the war just completely swallowing up the Five Points politics and how it feels insignificant compared to the war. It's just not satisfying to watch. After the Draft Riots, the rest of the movie feels like an afterthought and it feels like Leo and Day-Lewis both feel that way too.

Tangy
Gangs of New York is remarkably decent. It moves at a decent pace, DDL absolutely kills it as Bill the Butcher and I adore the setting, yet I still have it pretty low. As crazy as it is, I think my problem is actually Leo. Revenge plots can be pretty great, but to pull it off you actually need the lead to be more likable than the villain! Like how am I supposed to root for this guy, with DDL off to the side throwing around knives and shit. Its still a fun enough movie, but its just never going to stand out to me.

Snake
Martin Scorsese's overlong, tonally mixed (heavily violent to crudely funny to serious as hell) effort. Though dense with character, subplots, and ideas, it always feels disjointed but the eye candy is great. I think it's the weakest of his gangster films, but I'm not going to sit here and say it's a bad movie, just a divisive one.

plasma
Tries to be a million different things, but only succeeds at being a complete mess. This one starts with a mysterious and cool prologue before thrusting us into a mid-19th century setting that has plenty of potentialactually, too much potential. Scorsese felt the need to tell a story of a young mans coming of age, along with a redemption tale, along with a period piece, along with a YA romance, along with a racial drama, along with a political drama, along with a war drama, along with a crime drama, along with a tale of friendship and betrayal, along with

You get the point. Theres too much plot-vomit here, and just because its 2002 and the guy from Titanic is your leading man, that doesnt mean you can force a dozen different storylines into a script without meaningfully connecting them. The pacing is all over the place, the worldbuilding is spotty at times, and while the big three (Titanic Guy, DDL, and Cameron Diaz) give solid performances, their characters end up feeling cartoony because this story has no identity. D+

Outlier Ranking
rockus: 118
Snake: 102
plasma: 100
ssbm: 99
John: 98
Poke: 91
Vis: 89
Mythiot: 86
Tangy: 85
seginus: 79
Karo: 76

Guess Carlito's Way.

Man, I really should have proofread my write-ups, lol.

Guessing Carlito's Way again.

SSBM gets on the board thanks to Gangs dropping, and Fortybelow also cashes in. Vegas is bleeding money now!

Vegas Odds on #15:

+500 White Heat
+750 Casino
+750 L.A. Confidential
+1000 Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels
+1000 Snatch
+1000 Training Day
+1250 Reservoir Dogs
+1250 Carlito's Way (*NOTE* Poke & Mythiot get +$2000 since they bet Carlito before I updated the odds board)
+1250 City of God
+300 Any Other Movie [+2000 if you guess correctly]

Leaderboard:

1. Inviso $2000 (+500 Gangster No., +1500 The Irishman)
2. Fortybelowsummer $1750 (+750 Sicario, +$1000 Gangs of New York)
3. PokeWars: $1700 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 Gangster No. 1, +600 Scarface (1932))
4. SSBM: $1000 (+$1000 Gangs of New York)
5. BetrayedTangy: $600 (+600 The Public Enemy)

Johnbobb posted...

16. Gangs of New York (2002)

Vis
Coming so late in the list (which is surprising, given that its still twenty years old at this point), Gangs of New York really stands out on this list as a time period untouched up to this point, yet Academy Award winner Martin Scorcese (who I BELIEVE appears five times on this list in total) manages to go outside his wheelhouse to tell a historical narrative thats compelling from start to finish. Look at the level of talent in this film, too: helmed by a pair of academy award winners (well, future winners, in Leos case), plus a bunch of nominees, all performing what is essentially a Shakespearean tragedy for almost everyone involved. Its amazing. I love the fact that the films central conflict doesnt even matter. Theres all this talk about the titular gangs of New York, jockeying for position and pride and honor and all that, and the climax comes down to the city getting pissed the fuck off about being conscripted to fight in a Civil War they have no stake in.

I love the character work in this film though, across the board. Johnny is perfect as an upjumped thug who tries to push far beyond his means, and then gets pissy when his buddy is just naturally better than him. Johnnys feebles attempts to achieve even HALF of what Amsterdam effortlessly accomplishes lead to his betrayal, and for what? He winds up a sacrifice in the cold war between Amsterdam and Bill, killed in a way by both men. Jack and McGloin are amazingly portrayed as well, serving as Bills pet prizes for winning his war against Priest Vallon, and they just come across as perfectly pathetic throughout the film. Meanwhile, Monk stands tall, refusing to be anyones bitch, and even in death, he leaves the film with his pride intact. And Jenny is fierce, yet tender at the same time, struggling with her loyalties.

Of course, everything comes down to the two leads. Amsterdam does the standard organized crime plot of being the young upstart, brought into the organization and quickly catching the eye of the boss. You have the added wrinkle of him essentially being a spy for himself, but I enjoy the conflict of seeing him grow to respect and appreciate Bill, to the point where he saves his life and has to question the festering animosity in his heart.

But Bill is the pice de resistance of the film. Hes a man who believes in honor and going to war and earning your stripes by being willing to die for your country, and he even shows enough respect to his fallen foe (Priest Vallon) to treat his memory as sacred. But at the same time, we see Bill fighting in a cowardly fashion throughout the film: sneak attacking the priest, attacking Monk from behind, guerrilla attacking Amsterdam during their final battle. You can tell he has a cowardly streak, but he WANTS to be the big, brave boss. He constantly reminds us that his FATHER fought and died for Americabut thats not HIM fighting. Its just really interesting to see that dichotomy of his character, and that MAKES the film for me, more than anything else.

I didn't like GoNY very much, but Vis' write-up gave me a much better appreciation for it.

ChaCHING..how's about White Heat for next

Nice! Feels good to be on the board.

Im glad Im not the only one who thinks Leo is weak in this movie.

Ill say Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels.

Gonna guess white heat

Sigh, White Heat

I'm at a point now where I'll be mad if I don't get points for it

Going with L.A. Confidential again

White Heat has outperformed my expectations so much it might as well be #1 at this point

Seginustemple posted...

White Heat has outperformed my expectations so much it might as well be #1 at this point

I'd be up for it!

15. White Heat (1949)
Directed by: Raoul Walsh
Runtime: 1h 54m
Score: 172

ssbm: 5
Poke: 8
plasma: 10
Mythiot: 10
Snake: 13
Vis: 15
rockus: 15
John: 17
Tangy: 22
seginus: 27
Karo: 30

ssbm
Rating: A-

I'm pretty impressed by the nuance this movie conveys for its age. James Cagney does an excellent job as Cody. I really get the sense that he's a manchild criminal, but also that element of a manchild that really loves his mother (who's also in the crime business). The scene where Cody learns that his mother died still haunts me to this day. I really love that scene, as well as the scene where his mother warns Cody of the betrayal in his gang. Likewise, I really like Edmond O'Brien's role as Vic. For undercover cop plots, I think you really need to sell the origin story. How does this stranger get into being a friend to an established mob boss? This movie does a pretty good job of showing that relationship evolve.

The other members of the cast are great too. I loved the sideplot between Big Ed and Verna, as they try to take over Cody's gang while Cody is in jail. I thought it paid off really well when Cody escapes and Verna quickly fakes a story of being co-erced by Big Ed. Speaking of paying off really well, I was pretty surprised when Bo, a minor character who only serves as an obstacle for Vic by knowing his true identity, comes back for the big ending. This movie handles pay-offs well. Even small scenes like when Vic has to deliver a message to the cops and quickly comes up with a scheme in the gas station bathroom. This movie just feels smart. I really enjoyed watching this.

As someone who studied history, it's pretty fascinating just seeing old tech in old movies. I loved the faux-cell phone by just having a full-on telephone inside cop cars and that's how they speak to one another. I also liked the cops' way of tailing criminals, especially later on, where they use this...ring thing and angles on a map to figure out where someone is. It's really cool. I don't know if they were just BSing and this is the old-school version of Hollywood Plot Magic, but I liked it.

Poke
Cagney at his best with this slow descent into madness and delusion. The story is great. Loved the prison scenes, someone from the law side trying to infiltrate his gang and thwart his schemes. Top of the world!

plasma
White Heat is at least twenty years ahead of its time. While watching this, my brain melted several times as it tried to grasp the idea that a 40s movie could offer all the grit, suspense, moral ambiguity, and snappy dialogue that weve come to expect from contemporary storytelling. Seriously, if you shot this in high-def and threw in a few dozen F-bombs, youd think you were watching an HBO original from the past decade.

White Heat does an amazing job with characterization. None of the major characters are who they appear to be when we first meet them. James Cagneys lead character Cody Jarrett is a criminal badass but also a mamas boy. His beautiful wife appears loyal to him, but a single look she gives his right-hand man changes that perception. Then you have the dual-sided Fallon/Pardo, an undercover cop who tries to win Codys trust and has to stand by while crimes and murders are committed in front of his nose.

I went into White Heat completely blind, and Im glad I did because this is the first movie on the list with a truly compelling plot. When the movie opened with a train robbery, I never expected it to evolve into a prison escape story. Nor did I expect so much deception and strategizing from the criminals and the cops. At times it feels like this movie inspired Nolans Dark Knight Trilogy, especially with all the gadgetry and containment tactics used by the cops later on.

Cagney completely owns his role as Cody Jarrett, embodying a psychopathic charisma while conveying a believably broken man with mommy issues and delusions of grandeur. The ending scene with him on top of the world is a fitting ending and also a refreshing one, as he goes out on his own terms, unlike the 1930s triplets.

My only major complaint with White Heat is that the front half was noticeably stronger than the back half. It was engrossing to watch the storytellers light fuse after fuse early on, making us question what will happen over the course of the story. While the late-game payoffs certainly had impact, they were more predictable than I wouldve liked.

Complaints aside, White Heat is the best pre-Godfather film on our list. B

Myth
Cody Jarrett is the most detestable of these very early film gangsters, an absolutely ruthless psychopath. I could feel the terror the prisoner who had to whisper the news of Ma's death to him must have felt. But his emotional connections first to his mother and to the undercover cop also make him the most interesting. Loved this one, though it drags somewhat between the escape from prison and the final caper. The literally explosive finale more than makes up for it.

Snake
James Cagney pushes the limits of psychopathy in this thrilling and oftentimes frightening portrayal of a gangster, pulling back no punches as the psychological limits of the genre are plundered to great effect as it pioneered a caper for the ages.

Vis
Still very early in chronological order for this list, we hadnt really gotten the classic cop goes undercover as a criminal to infiltrate the mob storyline, but I think White Heat did a solid job of executing that concept. These movies really like writing crime bosses as violent, unstable psychopaths though, huh? Its crazy that a lunatic like Cody would ever be put in a position of power, yet here we are, with him running point on numerous violent sprees. Still, it makes the film more interesting to have the success or failure of the criminal dependent on the whims of a guy whod shoot you if you looked at him funny. I think thats what makes the undercover angle work, because Vic is so able to manipulate Codys emotions to guide him in a direction that benefits the police investigation. Plus, I like seeing that Vic has to improvise numerous times when Codys erratic behavior draws the plot off-course.

The only drawback I have is that I feel like you could almost afford to remove the mother/wife subplot, because they feel so irrelevant to everything. Dont get me wronghaving those characters helps characterize Cody in his lunacy, but I feel like theyre not given proper due as characters in their own right. The mother gets killed off-screen, and the wife swings wildly between faithfulness and betrayal, and it feels like neither one lives up to their full potential. I just think that if youre not going to write them as more than crutches to Codys story, you can afford to remove them outright and trim the movie down just a little bit. But thats a nitpick on my part, and I still enjoyed the film overall.

rockus
Cagney carries with a powerhouse performance and driven home by an iconic finale. Kind of a shame that it spends so much time on OBriens undercover plant who is just dwarfed by Cagney in so much of the film.

John
There are several films on this list carried by their lead, but James Cagney kind of raises the bar for that here. I'm going to make the bold assumption that The Public Enemy is dropping before White Heat does, so it won't be a spoiler that I really didn't care for the former. This is almost 20 years later, with Cagney in the lead, again as an over-the-top gangster, and man he does SUCH a better job this time around, with a performance that is still outrageous enough to grab and hold the viewer's attention, but without feeling as silly. Cody might be the least intmidating gangster name of all time, but he's an absolute dangerous lunatic and that's never in question. Seeing his progression from a mama's boy train robber to the screaming gang leader gunning down his own last crew member before blowing up half a mile of fuel tanks just to avoid getting caught or shot by cops is just a hell of a journey.

Tangy
This one surprised me! I ended up watching this near the end and was feeling pretty burned out at this point. Especially after I wasnt too hot on some of the other b&w films. White Heat however did a very good job on showing how much film had evolved over the course of nearly 20 years. For starters we see Cagney again and he proceeds to knock it out of the park. You can tell he was having some fun with the role at this point. Im also personally loving how these films affect each other. Scorsese must have been inspired by this when he was working on The Departed. Honestly this movie alone is making me want to watch the next list in chronological order.

seginus
A good reminder that the genre could have used more badass gangster mamas throughout (and even within this movie). It's such a boys club after this, all godfathers this and goodfellas that. Cagney chews it up as a tortured maniac who goes around robbing trains and slapping everyone. The tension is high when the undercover cop tries to befriend him in jail, because you know if he slips up Cagney is going to slap the shit out of him. Seriously though, the scenes teasing out the possibility of the cop getting found out are the best in the movie. The over-the-top ending is fun too. But I thought the overall narrative lacked a driving force and kept me at arm's length.

Karo
So we have this convict who the feds are trying to find the location of his hidden stash or something so they get as his cellmate this undercover cop who follows the crime boss around with a weird clingy demeanor that says either 'seriously I'm totally not a narc' or 'hey bro, I want to fuck'. Is this moron really the best man they have?
Anyway things go sideways due to a prison break and the ensuing manhunt sees ridiculous plans from everyone that are as unnecessarily complicated as the antics of Wile E Coyote and only slightly more effective.
Characters are cartoonish and lacking in basic common sense. People are knocked out by being hit lightly in the shoulder with a gun barrel. But by golly, the good ol' moral fiber of america was preserved. Hallelujah!
Indeed, front and center is an idiotic and contrived plot just to get around the hays code stipulation than you can't have a criminal as the main character. I know this is not truly the fault of the filmmakers, but rather the fascist anti-art puritans that this damn country still cant seem to be rid of, but I really don't know how you would expect a gangster movie made under the code to be anything other than very very dumb.
The only white heat I see here is white hot agony, and even one movie from this era on the list is one too many.

Outlier Ranking
rockus: 118
ssbm: 109
Snake: 104
plasma: 105
John: 100
Poke: 98
Tangy: 92
Mythiot: 91
seginus: 91
Karo: 91
Vis: 89

rockus gets a perfect score on White Heat, stopping him from moving up any higher, though he still holds his lead without much trouble. Meanwhile huge jumps for Karo and Seginus cause a 3-way tie near the bottom, with 5 different participants placing within 3 points of each other

I had a feeling it will go soon seeing all the predictions for it falling. Lasted as long as I could hope for.

Betting it all on Casino.

I think I'll go Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels

PAYOUT CITY. Inviso and Fortybelow stay on top of the world while Tangy slaps 4th place away from SSBM.

Fun fact: All remaining movies are from 1972-2006.

Vegas Odds on #14:

+500 Casino
+500 L.A. Confidential
+750 Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels
+750 Snatch
+1000 Carlito's Way
+1000 Training Day
+1000 City of God
+1250 Reservoir Dogs
+300 Any Other Movie [+2000 if you guess correctly]

Leaderboard:

1. Inviso $2500 (+500 Gangster No., +1500 The Irishman, +500 White Heat)
2. Fortybelowsummer $2250 (+750 Sicario, +$1000 Gangs of New York, +500 White Heat)
3. PokeWars: $1700 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 Gangster No. 1, +600 Scarface (1932))
4. BetrayedTangy: $1100 (+600 The Public Enemy, +500 White Heat)
5. SSBM: $1000 (+$1000 Gangs of New York)

planning on getting in another post tonight, so get in your predictions while you can!

Also, fun fact: 3/11 people had their last place ranking place in the top 50% overall!

One of them was Karo with White Heat, but two more we've yet to see

Big money big money..might be time for Carlitos Way

Damn, back to back target rankings.

I'd guess L.A. Confidential next then.

I'll go Carlito's Way.

L.A. Confidential again!

I should give White Heat another chance, all your reviews are giving me a better appreciation for it.

Sticking with Carlito's Way.

14. Lock, Stock & Two Smoking Barrels (1998)
Directed by: Guy Ritchie
Runtime: 1h 47m
Score: 162

Poke: 1
Vis: 2
Snake 10
Karo: 13
ssbm: 13
seginus: 13
John: 16
Tangy: 17
rockus: 20
Myth: 27
plasma: 30

Poke
What can I say? Guy Ritchie's magnum opus. It combines great interwoven gang politics and Guy Ritchie's style of humour. One of my favourite films, in one of my favourite genres, because like 7 films could have taken top spot. But this was the one to top them all. And if you don't like it, I'll send Big Chris for ya.

Vis
It was good to see a genuine comedy-style film on the list. Dont get me wrong, there have been plenty of goofier, or at least somewhat light-hearted films thus far, but this one was just great for its comedic potential. The sheer number of coincidences and misunderstandings made for an amazing watch, starting with Harry, a total scumbag, cheating to win the main groups hard-earned money. Thus, they need a plan to make that money back, and they choose to rob a set of robbers, who are themselves looking to rob a pot dealer. Meanwhile, Harry is trying to steal a pair of antique shotguns, which mistakenly get sold to the gang for their heist, and everything just explodes from there.

The bad guy robbers realize theyve been had and lay in wait for the gang to come back to an ambush; the pot dealer seeks out the gang, thinking they caused the initial robbery and then tried to sell him his own pot back; Harrys muscle shows up after the ensuing bloodbath to take the money and the guns; the gun burglars show up to take back the guns, since theyve been threatened with death by Harry; and in the end, everyone winds up dead except for the muscle, his son, and the gangwho have apparently committed no crimes whatsoever. Its hilarious as a plotline, and I loved the way everything worked out.

Snake
A relatively under-appreciated entry in the genre, this more twisted, low-stakes, late-90s crime comedy manages to be a lot of fun. Gunplay is used to spectacular comedic effect here, and the sprawling cast takes something like a Tarantino film and drapes it over this slapdash farce in a way that still manages to feel fresh and funny today.

Karo
Somewhere in Britain an ensemble cast of the most incompetent criminals ever bungle their simple underworld endeavors in the most catastrophic ways imaginable.
There is a certain dark hilarity to the situation as the body count rises and a pair of antique guns change hands rapidly leaving ever more carnage in their wake.
A lot of these movies were feeling quite similar to each other, and it was good to have a spot of weird British humor to liven things up.

ssbm
Rating: C+

This movie's carried hard by its third act. I don't dislike the first and second act, but it really is all set-up for the hilarious third act. Starting with Dog's theft of the marijuana farm, the movie just becomes funny. The theft is absurd, as well as the marijuana farm's defense. I especially like once Dog figures out it's Tom's crew that stole from them and Breaker also figures out the same thing and they just shoot each other. That's just great. I like the two incompetent thieves that Hatchet Harry unknowingly hires. I especially like the ending where Tom's crew finds out how expensive the rifles are and they desperately try to get Bacon back to keeping the rifles. The comedy's a breath of fresh air from the pretty serious set of movies we got here.

The cast is not really engaging. I don't remember most of the characters. They're also just not very interesting. You don't really get a sense of who any of these people are, just what faction they're a part of. The cinematography can be pretty good, like when Tom loses the bet or when Tom's crew is partying. But otherwise, the cinematography is kinda weird. There's this amateur-ish lighting that's always there that just bothers me as I watch the movie. Yeah, I don't have too much to say other than that third act is really good.

seginus
I had no expectations and was surprised by how much I enjoyed this, a classic British caper in the contemporary mold of crime movies as violent dark comedies (post-Tarantino/Scorsese). It's dense and zips along but never feels overplotted or hard to follow. Ritchie's directing is punchy and kinetic and the ensemble cast brings more cockney attitude than you can decipher, to the point of self-parody. I'm not big on the near-sepia look and some of the performances were naff (let's get British), but Sting was pretty good yeah? And hey, there's that cliffhanger ending from Italian Job! God save the queen!

John
Guy Ritchie, Jason Statham and Vinnie Jones all have their premiere in the same movie, and for all its flaws it's a lot of constant, violent, British fun.

Tangy
I wanted to try writing this without comparing it to Snatch, but I just cant do it. Everything even remotely enjoyable in the movie is just used better in Snatch. It sucks too, because its not technically Barrels fault either since it came first. As sad as it is to say its just inferior. It feels similar to the Reservoir Dogs/Pulp Fiction dynamic, but at least RD has more of an identity. Here its practically the same plot, with the same jokes, half the same actors and half the fun. That tangent out of the way, one its own its alright. The dialogue is quirky, the actions fun, but at the end of the day its just outclassed by the rest of these movies, not just its follow-up.

rockus
Though Snatch seems to be the more popular movie between Guy Ritchies early films I think Ive always preferred Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels. Even though it seems more chaotic I think the intersecting plot threads come together better and its ensemble is better balanced. Dont think Ritchie has really recaptured that same feeling since.

Myth
The most noticeable aspect of this film is how butt-ugly everything looks, the washed-out color scheme just didnt work for me at all. Beyond that, I did enjoy the sandpaper-dry humor of the dialogue and just how wrong everything goes for everyones plans, unfortunately none of the characters are particularly interesting or sympathetic so I had to struggle to care about them.

plasma
Opens with a snappy and captivating scene, then completely falls apart from there. Within five minutes, I knew this movie was destined for my Bottom 5. After another ten minutes, it became the frontrunner for my #30.

What turned me off most was the overabundance of characters thrown in my face. Approximately 5,382 British goons got introduced early on, and none struck me as charismatic or funny. By the time whats-his-face lost the rigged poker game, I had emotionally checked out.

To make matters worse, the humor ranges from trite (Dont use that language around my son!) to obtuse (And Roberts your fathers brother.) with plenty of airheaded stupidity mixed in. Not every comedy movie needs to be laugh-out-loud funny in order to be entertaining, but theres nothing here to redeem this one. No characters worth rooting for. No plot events worth anticipating. Nothing. Either this brand of humor clicks with you, or you hate your life for 107 minutes like I did. F

Outlier Ranking
rockus: 124
plasma: 121
Poke: 111
ssbm: 110
Snake: 108
Mythiot: 104
John: 102
Vis: 101
Tangy: 95
seginus: 92
Karo: 92

What's that? Encroaching competition for rockus? Egads!

What the fuck, Karo? What the fuck, plasma?

Oh well, glad White Heat was the top black and white old film.

Guess Carlito's Way.

Alright let's go Confidential.

Pokewars posted...

What the fuck, Karo? What the fuck, plasma?

Lock somehow felt twice as long as The Irishman to me. The humor absolutely failed to click with me, and there was nothing else for me to latch onto.

Feel free to send Big Chris after me haha