Current Events > The Swedish and Finnish NATO-critics were right.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Right in the sense that the military alliance seems to be a house of empty promises.

Following Russias invasion of Ukraine public support quickly changed from a majority against to a majority for NATO-membership in both countries.

The Secretary General of NATO and powerful national leaders like Biden, Johnson, Macron and Scholz started saying that all NATO-members supported a Swedish and Finnish application. The process would be quick and easy. Even Mitch McConnell came to Stockholm to show the US political unity on this.

Yet here we are, more exposed than ever since we dared defy Moscow and send in our applications but Turkey is blocking both us and the Finns from joining. No one know how or when this will be resolved.

In the meantime Russia has increased its incursions into Swedish airspace with military planes and Russian state TV talk about liberating Russian descendents on Gotland (Swedens biggest island and one of our 21 Regions). Saying that there are Russian descendents there is like them saying they need to liberate Russians in San Francisco or on the Isle of Wight.

Turkey being able to do this is not a good look for NATO. It looks weak. Im one of those who became pro-NATO but now Im not so certain and I worry about the Russian insanity.

They need to kick Turkey out.

Russia's neighbors and former territories need to come to teems with Russia for stability in the region. Our country only wants to fight a proxy war using your lives, instead of a hot and eventually nuclear war using our lives. The people of Ukraine and the countries affected are sacrifices so countries like mine don't ha e to buck up and deare World War 3 in earnest. It's unfortunate to say the least.

Sadly, NATO will not be giving you guys any substantial overt assistance because it's a tacit act of war if we do.

turkey is jockeying for concessions and playing a dangerous game. if russia actually invaded sweden or finland after they formally applied i would fully expect the us to have their back. fuck turkey and the fascist dictator they have tbh

Fony posted...

Russia's neighbors and former territories need to come to teems with Russia for stability in the region. Our country only wants to fight a proxy war using your lives, instead of a hot and eventually nuclear war using our lives. The people of Ukraine and the countries affected are sacrifices so countries like mine don't ha e to buck up and deare World War 3 in earnest. It's unfortunate to say the least.

Sadly, NATO will not be giving you guys any substantial overt assistance because it's a tacit act of war if we do.

this is bullshit. nato can absolutely expand at its pleasure and there isn't anything russia can or will do about it. we see how weak russia is in its pathetic attempted invasion of ukraine. if they actually tried to start something with nato putin knows it would be the end of his regime

annex turkey

Fony posted...

Russia's neighbors and former territories need to come to teems with Russia for stability in the region

Did you miss the part where the official Russian stance is that Ukraine shouldn't fucking exist? There's no fucking coming to terms with that.

Russia is actively trying to dehumanize Ukraine in the eyes of their people and is deporting civilians into parts of Russia for cheap labor, stop fucking apologizing for them.

andel posted...

this is bullshit. nato can absolutely expand at its pleasure and there isn't anything russia can or will do about it. we see how weak russia is in its pathetic attempted invasion of ukraine. if they actually tried to start something with nato putin knows it would be the end of his regime

At the cost of the lives of Eastern Europeans. All this, including the annex of Crimea is because we're encroaching on their defensible borders(in case a hot war breaks out). We are already at war with Russia and China for that matter. Proxy war and cold war are still war. All this shit is just our leaders and theirs jockeying over who will be blamed for dropping the first bomb. The people like OP are the casualties.

Russia is not "losing" in Ukraine either. They don't want to kill them all and blow the country up, that could be accomplished in days to weeks. They want to reuinfy in order to better protect their borders. They don't want our missiles staged 100 miles from Moscow, simply put. Spout your proud bravado, but people like OP will die for it while you sit acting self righteous.

OmegaShinkai posted...

Did you miss the part where the official Russian stance is that Ukraine shouldn't fucking exist? There's no fucking coming to terms with that.

Russia is actively trying to dehumanize Ukraine in the eyes of their people and is deporting civilians into parts of Russia for cheap labor, stop fucking apologizing for them.

I'm not saying it's right, but our country needs to either commit to freeing Ukraine from the threat(we go to war) or back out and let those countries handle it however they choose to. There's not much else to do but grandstand and undermine each other while the people in the grip of Russia expire.

That's exactly why those countries are souring on NATO. We are offering PR and lip service and very low scale support. They stuck their necks out to join NATO and won't even make it official.

Again, I understand and agree there is no middle ground. But WE are the ones straddling the fence while the smaller nations are suffering.

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Funny how this isn't the stance when people oppose Israel for trying to erase Palestinians from existence.

Amazes me how many people are ok with potentially starting WW3, have we learnt nothing from the past?

spikethedevil posted...

Amazes me how many people are ok with potentially starting WW3, have we learnt nothing from the past?

Apparently not since we're letting a lunatic dictator do whatever he wants because he's threatening people. Ain't nobody going to bat for Russia if things go to hell.

spikethedevil posted...

Amazes me how many people are ok with potentially starting WW3, have we learnt nothing from the past?

Ok dr strange love.

How about you come up with a solution for thousands of russian nukes

Fony posted...

At the cost of the lives of Eastern Europeans. All this, including the annex of Crimea is because we're encroaching on their defensible borders(in case a hot war breaks out). We are already at war with Russia and China for that matter. Proxy war and cold war are still war. All this shit is just our leaders and theirs jockeying over who will be blamed for dropping the first bomb. The people like OP are the casualties.

Russia is not "losing" in Ukraine either. They don't want to kill them all and blow the country up, that could be accomplished in days to weeks. They want to reuinfy in order to better protect their borders. They don't want our missiles staged 100 miles from Moscow, simply put. Spout your proud bravado, but people like OP will die for it while you sit acting self righteous.

this is pathetic kremlin propoganda that putin doesn't even believe.

russia doesn't care about preserving ukraine considering they are wiping towns off the map and murdering thousands of civilians. they have very clearly been losing since the war started.

and this is a war of conquest and aggression, has nothing to do with protecting their borders at all. their borders have never been threatened by anyone. putin blatantly said he wants to bring back the russian empire and this is his attempt at doing so by pulling a hitler and starting an obvious war of conquest. luckily it is working out very poorly for him

spikethedevil posted...

Amazes me how many people are ok with potentially starting WW3, have we learnt nothing from the past?

You mean the past where we spent years appeasing a genocidal dictator who repeatedly invaded and annexed neighboring countries until it ended up on the doorstep of allied countries?

OmegaShinkai posted...

You mean the past where we spent years appeasing a genocidal dictator who repeatedly invaded and annexed neighboring countries until it ended up on the doorstep of allied countries?

You mean that time before Nato and nukes were a thing. I doubt even Putin is mad enough to attack a nuclear nation.

spikethedevil posted...

Amazes me how many people are ok with potentially starting WW3, have we learnt nothing from the past?

we have learned very much from the past, which is why we are giving tons of material support to ukraine and not encouraging appeasement which is what led to ww2.

spikethedevil posted...

Amazes me how many people are ok with potentially starting WW3, have we learnt nothing from the past?

Erm

WW1 and WW2 started from people not reacting to dictators invading sovereign countries.

Ignoring what happened in Crimea, The West Bank and Tibet is what is starting the WW3 countdown, not the response to Ukraine

In fact that's the opposite.

If China had gotten on board with the rest of the world, Russia would be fucked right now. But sadly because no one stood up to China in the past 30 years, it's not that simple.

But WW3 doesn't come from standing up to Russia/China it comes from NOT standing up to Russia/China

I can't wait for these same "it's actually NATO'S fault/let's sit back and not provoke Russia" talking points when they move on Moldova, which very conveniently has a breakaway region claiming independence that's supported militarily by Russia which claims its minorities are being persecuted by the Moldovan government.

It's going to keep happening every few years, and it's going to reach a point that Russia is emboldened to move on the Baltic states despite them being NATO members, because clearly NATO isn't going to do anything anyways.

OmegaShinkai posted...

I can't wait for these same "it's actually NATO'S fault/let's sit back and not provoke Russia" talking points when they move on Moldova, which very conveniently has a breakaway region claiming independence that's supported militarily by Russia which claims its minorities are being persecuted by the Moldovan government.

It's going to keep happening every few years, and it's going to reach a point that Russia is emboldened to move on the Baltic states despite them being NATO members, because clearly NATO isn't going to do anything anyways.

The Pope already made this point by siding with Russia

Imagine shilling for Russia

UnfairRepresent posted...

Erm

WW1 and WW2 started from people not reacting to dictators invading sovereign countries.

Ignoring what happened in Crimea, The West Bank and Tibet is what is starting the WW3 countdown, not the response to Ukraine

In fact that's the opposite.

If China had gotten on board with the rest of the world, Russia would be fucked right now. But sadly because no one stood up to China in the past 30 years, it's not that simple.

But WW3 doesn't come from standing up to Russia/China it comes from NOT standing up to Russia/China

luckily china told russia to get fucked when they wanted china to create an end around to the swift banking system. china isn't giving russia nearly the support they need to recover from the crippling sanctions the civilized world has levied on them.

russia has absolutely destroyed its own economy by starting this war of aggression and the situation won't improve for them until they retreat from ukraine at best. they are likely fucked as long as putin remains in power

andel posted...

they are likely fucked as long as putin remains in power

You know people keep saying this, I really don't think things will change much when Putin dies.

He'll be protrayed as a hero/martyr/legend in state media and his successor will be just like him.

I think Russia would need a full blown revolution to change.

BalanceLost posted...

Im one of those who became pro-NATO but now Im not so certain and I worry about the Russian insanity.

Good to see you say it. Many sudden NATO-proponents have become quite obstinate and completely unwilling to even debate the issue. I'm glad you're not one of them.

Fony posted...

Russia is not "losing" in Ukraine either. They don't want to kill them all and blow the country up, that could be accomplished in days to weeks. They want to reuinfy in order to better protect their borders. They don't want our missiles staged 100 miles from Moscow, simply put. Spout your proud bravado, but people like OP will die for it while you sit acting self righteous.

I just googled Ukraine border to Moscow and the answer seems to be 450 miles. Are you spreading Russian propaganda you silly goose?

iPhone_7 posted...

I just googled Ukraine border to Moscow and the answer seems to be 450 miles. Are you spreading Russian propaganda you silly goose?

yeah, he seems upset that russia has been failing hard in ukraine

Imagine looking at what happened to Mariupol and saying "Russia isn't trying to flatten the country", they literally tried to occupy Kyiv via Belarus in the first days of the invasion and attempted multiple airborne assaults on the city. It's hilarious when they claim they'll "expand" their list of targets if NATO supplies weaponry because their policy since the beginning has been to kill as many civilians as possible in an attempt to demoralize the population.

OmegaShinkai posted...

Imagine looking at what happened to Mariupol and saying "Russia isn't trying to flatten the country", they literally tried to occupy Kyiv via Belarus in the first days of the invasion and attempted multiple airborne assaults on the city. It's hilarious when they claim they'll "expand" their list of targets if NATO supplies weaponry because their policy since the beginning has been to kill as many civilians as possible in an attempt to demoralize the population.

yep. they very obviously attempted to take kyiv and murder zelensky and got their asses kicked and had to retreat and change strategy

They said at the beginning they wanted to denazify Ukraine, this despite the fact Zelenskyy is Jewish.

Now it seems they've shifted away from that, trying to find another excuse to justify this horribly executed invasion that has seen countless lives cut short. Now they threaten the whole of Europe if they are attacked by weapons supplied from elsewhere.

Mark him and move on.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I wonder how much he's being paid to deepthroat that Russian propaganda cock?
It's the same old shit from these clowns. If Russia doesn't want it's neighbors and former states cozying up to NATO then it shouldn't be a shitty neighbor that says things like "The Baltic States have no right to exist independent of Russia".

Steps need to be taken against Turkey tbh. Sweden and Finland have put themselves in a precarious position for the sake of NATO, and NATO needs to have their back

Fony
User is not currently an active member.

What a shill hill to die on.

Gotta admit, I used to think people on the left were crazy conspiracy theorists when they were claiming right wing pundits were Russian plants/shills/etc. But seeing how far people on the right go to defend Russia, and even praise Russian/Chinese governments I gotta say:

Yikes.

Sweden and Finland should obtain nuclear weapons before it's too late.

Doe posted...

Sweden and Finland should obtain nuclear weapons before it's too late.

At the very least, this is a perfect example of why no country should ever pursue denuclearization.

OmegaShinkai posted...

At the very least, this is a perfect example of why no country should ever pursue denuclearization.

But the promises to guarantee Ukraine's territorial sovereignty have worked out so well for the Ukrainians.

BalanceLost posted...

In the meantime Russia has increased its incursions into Swedish airspace with military planes and Russian state TV talk about liberating Russian descendents on Gotland (Swedens biggest island and one of our 21 Regions). Saying that there are Russian descendents there is like them saying they need to liberate Russians in San Francisco or on the Isle of Wight.

They have also military ships entering Danish water.
But to be fair, they have talked about attacking Gotland for a long time on Russian State TV, that was the reason why we suddenly sent so much military to Gotland and had tanks driving around acting like it was a military parade in Moscow.

teep_ posted...

Steps need to be taken against Turkey tbh. Sweden and Finland have put themselves in a precarious position for the sake of NATO, and NATO needs to have their back

Problem is that Turkey is a lot more important for NATO (read: the US) than Sweden and Finland are, so steps won't be taken. At the expense of Kurds

We need to get rid of the Turkish Government and create "Neo Anatolia"

KamenRiderBlade posted...

We need to get rid of the Turkish Government

bruh

Smh why can't I put a tag on a suspended user, they probably aren't going to stay banned knowing Gamefaqs.

UnfairRepresent posted...

bruh

I remember years ago arguing with that guy. He thinks Calexit should end with wiping out all of California.

As in the population.

The issue seems to be Turkey, not that the sceptics were right it seems to me. Their government is pretty damn terrible and is clearly being petty, wanting to get something themselves and/or punish Sweden/Finland to appease the petty ego who calls himself Turkey's leader.

And sadly Turkey's position gives it undeserved power it will use to oppress people.

Funkydog posted...

The issue seems to be Turkey, not that the sceptics were right it seems to me. Their government is pretty damn terrible and is clearly being petty, wanting to get something themselves and/or punish Sweden/Finland to appease the petty ego who calls himself Turkey's leader.

And sadly Turkey's position gives it undeserved power it will use to oppress people.

Many skeptics specifically were concerned about allying with nations such as Turkey. They were saying that joining NATO would allow Turkey (among others) to exert influence over both our domestic and foreign policy, and they were dismissed as ridiculous. Now we haven't even joined yet and we see Turkey doing exactly that, and we see the same dismissive proponents saying that the US should put pressure on Turkey to stop it. So not only was it not ever a risk that a bigger ally would try to bully us into things, they expect the even bigger ally to bully Turkey as well!

scar the 1 posted...

Many skeptics specifically were concerned about allying with nations such as Turkey. They were saying that joining NATO would allow Turkey (among others) to exert influence over both our domestic and foreign policy, and they were dismissed as ridiculous. Now we haven't even joined yet and we see Turkey doing exactly that, and we see the same dismissive proponents saying that the US should put pressure on Turkey to stop it. So not only was it not ever a risk that a bigger ally would try to bully us into things, they expect the even bigger ally to bully Turkey as well!

That's a fair thing to be sceptic about then, yeah. A problem for pretty much Europe in general, even outside of NATO frustratingly and I'm not sure is an easy solution.

Turkey is essentially a toddler having a tantrum. Only they've been given a gun and taught how to use it.

Funkydog posted...

That's a fair thing to be sceptic about then, yeah. A problem for pretty much Europe in general, even outside of NATO frustratingly and I'm not sure is an easy solution.

Turkey is essentially a toddler having a tantrum. Only they've been given a gun and taught how to use it.

Sure. But Turkey is also, what, the second largest military force in NATO? And they're strategically using this situation as leverage to get away with attacking Rojava without criticism from the west. They're also very interested in lifting the arms/military embargo that has been imposed on them, and this provides leverage for that as well. Sweden at least has already shown themselves willing to go along with that, even!
I think reducing it to a temper tantrum is a bit dangerous. Erdogan is a strongman dictator who is playing his hand the way he thinks is best. And in some ways it's not looking very different from how Putin tried to threaten his way into NATO backing down. With one crucial difference being that the west doesn't really care much about Kurds, compared to Ukrainians.