Current Events > Cap was wrong(Captain America: Civil War spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

If Cap just sided with Tony from the very beginning, they could have entirely ruined Zemo's entire plan, Bucky could have gotten the help he needed, the Avengers could have been together during Infinity War, and they could legitimately just do what they always did, as they always did.

Hell, Nick Fury also had a bunch of people telling him what to do, and I don't think he ever listened. Not once. It's just a case of more paperwork and talking to idiots. And Tony has robots for that lol, or can just ignore them(like he does in Endgame).

The only thing they'd need to worry about is BP trying to kill Bucky, and that wouldn't be an issue if Tony and Cap were on the same side, as both would have figured out the whole Zemo thing from the very beginning.

So, in short, Cap was wrong. He almost got Tony's best friend killed, he kept a secret from a good friend, and he supported Bucky who was a mentally unstable man who needed help.
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I'd still do him

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HylianFox posted...

I'd still do him

I don't think anyone would fault you for that tbh
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Cap was definitely in the wrong

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Wrong for not licking the boots of greedy, inept bureaucrats? No.

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EmbraceOfDeath posted...

Wrong for not licking the boots of greedy, inept bureaucrats? No.

Wrong for more reasons than that.

Those guys are easily ignored, as shown by Nick Fury for YEARS and Stark in Endgame.
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for all the bad that happened in 2020 lets never forget the good that happened to. 2020 is the year we all got to see both captain america's and bucky's dicks

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Cap was right.

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I4NRulez posted...

Cap was right.

Wrong*
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Didn't Zemo plan for Tony to find out Bucky killed his parents?

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EmbraceOfDeath posted...

Wrong for not licking the boots of greedy, inept bureaucrats? No.

CE on cops: damn they need more oversight
CE on literal Gods: fuck it, let em rip

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team Cap all the way.

it doesnt matter If the heroes were together for Infinity War, they still would have lost. That wouldnt change much.

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"What if there's some place we need to be, but can't?"

Team Cap!

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Legit people on Cap's side should be on a watchlist.

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Also, who gave Stark and Strange permission to fight Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian? Didn't they break the Sokovia Accords by doing that?

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It was done better in the comics.


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Kajagogo posted...

Also, who gave Stark and Strange permission to fight Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian? Didn't they break the Sokovia Accords by doing that?

Stark totally did, which shows that the Sokovia Accords are useless and the people advocating for them are full of shit. You can't just wait around for government approval on an emergency like that. This was one of Cap's points

Strange never signed the accords, though that probably wouldn't matter. Same with Parker

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Slayer_22 posted...

Wrong*

You're wrong. Cap was 100% correct.

#1. Cap said that he didn't want to answer to the board to what threats they could respond to.

#2. Cap in the movie before stopped corrupt hydra officials who infiltrated the government/SHIELD. Why would he willingly assign the avengers to government control?

#3. Even if they did agree and caught bucky. Who's to say that they could have stopped Zemo's plan. The whole plan hinged on the fact that Cap and Iron Man would be split on what to do with Bucky. Let's say they both catch Bucky. Tony finds out that he killed his parents and still wants to kill him. Do you think Cap would let that happen? He broke out his friends he barely knew. You don't think he'd do more for bucky?


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It's been a while but wouldn't General Ross also be in charge of the Avengers? He was an asshole.

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AlCalavicci posted...

Strange never signed the accords, though that probably wouldn't matter. Same with Parker

Yea, it was mentioned that Pym and Van Dyne were in violation of it in Ant-Man in the Wasp.

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shouldnt have punished all the avengers for tony's problem. cap did nothing wrong

it's like locking a topic when there's only one person actually trolling

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Tony Stark is a dick, and Captain America's moral compass always points true.

AlCalavicci posted...

team Cap all the way.

it doesnt matter If the heroes were together for Infinity War, they still would have lost. That wouldnt change much.

You did see what happened on Titan, right? They could have easily beaten Thanos. The only thing that stopped them was Thanos having all the stones. If the Avengers worked together, they could have easily beaten Thanos, who in this case wouldn't have had the time or mind stone.

Kajagogo posted...

"What if there's some place we need to be, but can't?"

Team Cap!

Again, Endgame shows this by having Tony ignore them. They're all talk, it's no different from Fury and SHIELD regularly ignoring their 'rules'. It's just official paperwork.

I4NRulez posted...

You're wrong. Cap was 100% correct.

#1. Cap said that he didn't want to answer to the board to what threats they could respond to.

#2. Cap in the movie before stopped corrupt hydra officials who infiltrated the government/SHIELD. Why would he willingly assign the avengers to government control?

#3. Even if they did agree and caught bucky. Who's to say that they could have stopped Zemo's plan. The whole plan hinged on the fact that Cap and Iron Man would be split on what to do with Bucky. Let's say they both catch Bucky. Tony finds out that he killed his parents and still wants to kill him. Do you think Cap would let that happen? He broke out his friends he barely knew. You don't think he'd do more for bucky?

1). As shown by Tony and Fury, it's unnecessary.

2). No one would control them, they'd be under whatever Avenger was leading the team at the moment...which was between Cap or Tony. And neither of them ever take the word 'no' too well, do they?

3). Sounds like a case of Cap was wrong to not say anything. And I think with all the Avengers present and accounted for(rather than just Tony alone), they could have easily stopped him from doing anything to Bucky.

Punished_Blinx posted...

It's been a while but wouldn't General Ross also be in charge of the Avengers? He was an asshole.

About as 'in charge' as anyone was of Fury lol.
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Slayer_22 posted...

No one would control them, they'd be under whatever Avenger was leading the team at the moment...which was between Cap or Tony. And neither of them ever take the word 'no' too well, do they?

That wasn't the pitch.

https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Sokovia_Accords

"The Sokovia Accords. Approved by 117 countries, it states that the Avengers shall no longer be a private organization. Instead, they'll operate under the supervision of a United Nations panel, only when and if that panel deems it necessary."

Ratified by 117 countries, the Accords place the Avengers under U.N. authority and provide a framework for the registration and monitoring of all Enhanced individuals."

The currently known regulations established by the Sokovia Accords include:

• Any enhanced individuals who agree to sign must register with the United Nations and provide biometric data such as fingerprints and DNA samples.
• Those with secret identities must reveal their legal names and true identities to the United Nations.
• Those with innate powers must submit to a power analysis, which will categorize their threat level and determine potential health risks.
• Those with innate powers must also wear tracking bracelets at all times.
• Any enhanced individuals who sign are prohibited from taking action in any country other than their own unless they are first given clearance by either that country's government or by a United Nations subcommittee.
• Governments are forbidden from deploying enhanced individuals outside of their own national borders unless those individuals are given clearance as described above. The same rule also applies to non-government organizations that operate on a global scale (including S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Avengers).
• Any enhanced individuals who do not sign will not be allowed to take part in any police, military, or espionage activities, or to otherwise participate in any national or international conflict, even in their own country.
• As a corollary, they will not be allowed to participate in any active missions undertaken by private or governmental law enforcement/military/intelligence organizations (such as S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Avengers).
• Any enhanced individuals who use their powers to break the law (including those who take part in extralegal vigilante activities), or are otherwise deemed to be a threat to the safety of the general public, may be detained indefinitely without trial.
• If an enhanced individual violates the Accords, or obstructs the actions of those enforcing the Accords, they may likewise be arrested and detained indefinitely without trial.[2]
• The use of technology to bestow individuals with innate superhuman capabilities is strictly regulated, as is the use and distribution of highly advanced technology (such as Asgardian and Chitauri weaponry).
• The creation of self-aware artificial intelligence is completely prohibited.
• The Avengers will no longer be a private organization and will operate under the supervision of the United Nations.
• For the purposes of the Accords, an "enhanced individual" is defined as any person, human or otherwise, with superhuman capabilities. This includes individuals whose powers are an innate function of their biology as well as individuals who utilize the highly advanced technology to grant themselves superhuman capabilities. However, individuals with advanced prostheses do not seem to be considered "enhanced", even if their prostheses give them capabilities beyond those of ordinary humans.
• All members of the Avengers are subject to the same conditions as enhanced individuals, even if they are not enhanced themselves: Black Widow was required to sign so she could continue serving on the Avengers due to her previously being deemed a threat to world security by Nick Fury, and Hawkeye was incarcerated on the Raft after violating the Accords.

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Punished_Blinx posted...

Didn't Zemo plan for Tony to find out Bucky killed his parents?

yeah, which makes topic kinda pointless because as mentioned zemo has experience and patience so he would have found a way.

the accords situation was just a backdrop.

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There was a kill order on Bucky. Peace was never an option.

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Slayer_22 posted...

You did see what happened on Titan, right? They could have easily beaten Thanos. The only thing that stopped them was Thanos having all the stones. If the Avengers worked together, they could have easily beaten Thanos, who in this case wouldn't have had the time or mind stone.

What happened on Titan was a specific combination of people that were not on Earth at the time. Part of why that would have worked if Quill hadn't screwed it up, is because Mantis was subduing Thanos. Thanos had the reality and the power stone at that point, as well as the space stone. Three infinity stones. The reality stone alone may have been enough to foil their attack against him.

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If Steve and Tony settled their differences like reasonable mature adults, the film would have been about two minutes long, and we'd have gotten ripped off on the movie tickets.

I compare Bucky to Banner. Banner always knew Hulk was bad and he doesn't believe he's worth saving and even tried to kill himself.

Bucky knows being controlled is bad but he obviously believes he himself is worth saving and be redeemed that's why he runs from being captured and let's Cap ruin everything he has to save him.

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Punished_Blinx posted...

*snip*

I know, I'm trying to say, they wouldn't always listen. Just like Fury never listened. It's a simple concept, why did you need to post all that lol.

AlCalavicci posted...

What happened on Titan was a specific combination of people that were not on Earth at the time. Part of why that would have worked if Quill hadn't screwed it up, is because Mantis was subduing Thanos. Thanos had the reality and the power stone at that point, as well as the space stone. Three infinity stones. The reality stone alone may have been enough to foil their attack against him.

The reason Thanos was holding back so much during the fight is that he didn't know where the time stone was. He would have been entirely vulnerable during their fight, assuming it was on Wakanda, while Strange and Vision were the prime targets. They EASILY could have stalled long enough for Thor to gain Stormbreaker and easily kill Thanos. In that situation, Thor wouldn't even need to worry about going for the head in this case. Thanos was barely able to stand after he took the axe to the chest ffs.

Strange also wouldn't need to give up the time stone either in this case. Because all they need to do to win is allow enough time for Thor to get to their location...which he definitely would.

Idk, seems like if they were all together, they'd easily have won.

Questionmarktarius posted...

If Steve and Tony settled their differences like reasonable mature adults, the film would have been about two minutes long, and we'd have gotten ripped off on the movie tickets.

True.
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Slayer_22 posted...

I know, I'm trying to say, they wouldn't always listen. Just like Fury never listened. It's a simple concept, why did you need to post all that lol.

Because it shows that they are explicitly banned from doing anything without approval and they're consistently monitored to avoid them 'doing their own thing'

Saying they don't take the word 'no' too well so it doesn't matter misses the point. If that's the case there's no reason for them to sign it at all.

Their leader would be the US Government. Who would be General Ross in all likelihood. The point was to change the Avengers and all super powered people to be more like a leashed dog.

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Slayer_22 posted...

The reason Thanos was holding back so much during the fight is that he didn't know where the time stone was. He would have been entirely vulnerable during their fight, assuming it was on Wakanda, while Strange and Vision were the prime targets. They EASILY could have stalled long enough for Thor to gain Stormbreaker and easily kill Thanos. In that situation, Thor wouldn't even need to worry about going for the head in this case. Thanos was barely able to stand after he took the axe to the chest ffs.

Strange also wouldn't need to give up the time stone either in this case. Because all they need to do to win is allow enough time for Thor to get to their location...which he definitely would.

Idk, seems like if they were all together, they'd easily have won.

They didn't even know Thor was coming. It's not like they'd be like "We just have to stall long enough until Thor comes!". They didn't know he was coming. For most of the battle on earth in Wakanda, Thanos isn't there. If you insert Thanos into that fight earlier because he's not being held up at Titan, you have a determined Thanos with 4 infinity stones. We saw what he can do with the power stone and the reality stone. Thanos is there earlier, so Shuri's progress with Vision is halted earlier. Thanos could even take the mind stone at that point.

Consider also, that 2014 Thanos in Endgame gives them a hell of a run for their money and he doesn't have any stones for a lot of the battle.

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Punished_Blinx posted...

Because it shows that they are explicitly banned from doing anything without approval and they're consistently monitored to avoid them 'doing their own thing'

Saying they don't take the word 'no' too well so it doesn't matter misses the point. If that's the case there's no reason for them to sign it at all.

Their leader would be the US Government. Who would be General Ross in all likelihood. The point was to change the Avengers and all super powered people to be more like a leashed dog.

This. The point of the Accords were to put the Avengers under Government control. Any single Avenger taking action without Government say so goes against the Accords and defeats the purpose, and the argument.

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Punished_Blinx posted...

Because it shows that they are explicitly banned from doing anything without approval and they're consistently monitored to avoid them 'doing their own thing'

Saying they don't take the word 'no' too well so it doesn't matter misses the point. If that's the case there's no reason for them to sign it at all.

Their leader would be the US Government. Who would be General Ross in all likelihood. The point was to change the Avengers and all super powered people to be more like a leashed dog.

Dude, the Accords are still in effect and nothing has been done.

They were in effect in Endgame.

Nothing would have changed, besides Iron Man putting Ross on mute while he made some new suits or some shit, this was shown in Endgame.
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Cap was right and the Sokovia Accords were a stupid idea.

And everything TC said about stopping Zemo and helping Bucky? All of that is true had Tony sided with Cap too. It was the division that caused all the bad shit.

Only thing Rogers ever did wrong morally was not tell Tony about his parents.

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Slayer_22 posted...

Dude, the Accords are still in effect and nothing has been done.

They were in effect in Endgame.

Nothing would have changed, besides Iron Man putting Ross on mute while he made some new suits or some shit, this was shown in Endgame.

It's toothless now because of what happened in Infinity War and Endgame. No country is going to arrest the people who brought back 50% of the population.

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AlCalavicci posted...

They didn't even know Thor was coming. It's not like they'd be like "We just have to stall long enough until Thor comes!". They didn't know he was coming. For most of the battle on earth in Wakanda, Thanos isn't there. If you insert Thanos into that fight earlier because he's not being held up at Titan, you have a determined Thanos with 4 infinity stones. We saw what he can do with the power stone and the reality stone. Thanos is there earlier, so Shuri's progress with Vision is halted earlier. Thanos could even take the mind stone at that point.

Consider also, that 2014 Thanos in Endgame gives them a hell of a run for their money and he doesn't have any stones for a lot of the battle.

Strange would have known, easily. But Thor wasn't coming to Titan, so there was no point in stalling there. If Strange was on earth, with the Avengers, their Endgame would have been to wait for Thor. Even if Thanos got there earlier, that's fine, because he'd just spend the time looking for the stone. It's not like Titan took him a particularly large amount of time, after all. The Avengers 100% could have held out until Thor arrived.
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GameGodOfAll posted...

Cap was right and the Sokovia Accords were a stupid idea.

And everything TC said about stopping Zemo and helping Bucky? All of that is true had Tony sided with Cap too. It was the division that caused all the bad shit.

Only thing Rogers ever did wrong morally was not tell Tony about his parents.

If Tony sided with Cap, it would have the same end result but with the US Government pissed at them, which is the biggest issue. They'd be fugitives. That's the biggest downside there. But yes, I agree.

Punished_Blinx posted...

It's toothless now because of what happened in Infinity War and Endgame. No country is going to arrest the people who brought back 50% of the population.

Yeah, but even in Endgame, it was still a thing. And Tony put Ross on hold, and ignored him. And it was directly mentioned in WandaVision I think? Idk about Falcon and Winter Soldier though.
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I think the idea that Thanos would have lost if everyone was together fails because:

Thanos most powerful subordinate was defeated in space by SpiderMan/Tony via sneak attack. Thanos himself wasnt present for most of the Wakanda battle.

And if everyone stays on Earth, the Guardians never even join the fight except for Groot/Rocket. And Mantis was a major player in incapacitating Thanos on Titan.

Thanos with his full team wash the Avengers. Especially if they foolishly put Wanda on guard duty.

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Slayer_22 posted...

Yeah, but even in Endgame, it was still a thing. And Tony put Ross on hold, and ignored him. And it was directly mentioned in WandaVision I think? Idk about Falcon and Winter Soldier though.

In Infinity War Ross directly asked Rhodes to arrest Captain America and the others and promised punishment when he didn't. This was after Thanos already invaded and the Avengers were reuniting.

You're acting like nothing changed by the time things hit Endgame. Ross was snapped and wasn't even around. At the end of that movie he was at the funeral which shows his opinion on the matter changed.

During and before Infinity War was another story. Ross and the people who enforced the accords were still on their power trip. If Tony, Nick or whoever else ignored him he'd have the right to arrest and punish them and he would have done so until the events of Infinity War or any other event that proved to them that it was a mistake.

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Iron Man even admitted that Cap was right.

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cuttin_in_farm posted...

I think the idea that Thanos would have lost if everyone was together fails because:

Thanos most powerful subordinate was defeated in space by SpiderMan/Tony via sneak attack. Thanos himself wasnt present for most of the Wakanda battle.

And if everyone stays on Earth, the Guardians never even join the fight except for Groot/Rocket. And Mantis was a major player in incapacitating Thanos on Titan.

Thanos with his full team wash the Avengers. Especially if they foolishly put Wanda on guard duty.

And at this point Thanos with his full team and at least four infinity stones. Thanos can literally use the reality stone to make the Avengers think they won the fight then rofflestomp them.

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Punished_Blinx posted...

In Infinity War Ross directly asked Rhodes to arrest Captain America and the others and promised punishment when he didn't. This was after Thanos already invaded and the Avengers were reuniting.

You're acting like nothing changed by the time things hit Endgame. Ross was snapped and wasn't even around. At the end of that movie he was at the funeral which shows his opinion on the matter changed.

During and before Infinity War was another story. Ross and the people who enforced the accords were still on their power trip. If Tony, Nick or whoever else ignored him he'd have the right to arrest and punish them and he would have done so until the events of Infinity War or any other event that proved to them that it was a mistake.

I HIGHLY doubt they'd have actually done anything, sorry. I just don't believe it'd be anything beyond harsh words and false threats.
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Slayer_22 posted...

I HIGHLY doubt they'd have actually done anything, sorry. I just don't believe it'd be anything beyond harsh words and false threats.

They were already arresting Avengers for disobeying. They had the Raft which was specifically designed for it.

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Punished_Blinx posted...

They were already arresting Avengers for disobeying. They had the Raft which was specifically designed for it.

Exactly. The entire reason Captain America, the guy who saved the country during two different generations, was on the run for two years. Thunderbolt Ross would have upheld it against anyone he could have.

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Slayer_22 posted...

If Cap just sided with Tony from the very beginning, they could have entirely ruined Zemo's entire plan, Bucky could have gotten the help he needed, the Avengers could have been together during Infinity War, and they could legitimately just do what they always did, as they always did.

Hell, Nick Fury also had a bunch of people telling him what to do, and I don't think he ever listened. Not once. It's just a case of more paperwork and talking to idiots. And Tony has robots for that lol, or can just ignore them(like he does in Endgame).

The only thing they'd need to worry about is BP trying to kill Bucky, and that wouldn't be an issue if Tony and Cap were on the same side, as both would have figured out the whole Zemo thing from the very beginning.

So, in short, Cap was wrong. He almost got Tony's best friend killed, he kept a secret from a good friend, and he supported Bucky who was a mentally unstable man who needed help.

Bucky was going to prison after his interrogation. He was only forgiven and given therapy as part of his help in Endgame.

Tonys side didnt believe in Zemo until after he took control of Bucky and even then they tried to stop Cap and do nothing about it. Its only after he talked with Falcon in Prison.

Then again in Infinity War Ross tries to arrest Cap America and Rhodey also disobeys and figures hes getting arrested because of it.

So out of Tonys team you have Tony, Rhodey and Widow who all sided with Cap. Black Panther who didnt care just wanted revenge. Spiderman who was just following Tony and didnt hear the whole story. And Vision.

So not even Tonys side agrees with Tony

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Punished_Blinx posted...

They were already arresting Avengers for disobeying. They had the Raft which was specifically designed for it.

Their 'arresting' consisted of IM getting everyone in jail.

There is absolutely no way they'd be able to imprison anyone without other super-powered folks helping.

They'd do nothing in the face of all that happening, simple as that. If something could have been done, it would have been done.

Xerun posted...

Bucky was going to prison after his interrogation. He was only forgiven and given therapy as part of his help in Endgame.

Tonys side didnt believe in Zemo until after he took control of Bucky and even then they tried to stop Cap and do nothing about it. Its only after he talked with Falcon in Prison.

Then again in Infinity War Ross tries to arrest Cap America and Rhodey also disobeys and figures hes getting arrested because of it.

So out of Tonys team you have Tony, Rhodey and Widow who all sided with Cap. Black Panther who didnt care just wanted revenge. Spiderman who was just following Tony and didnt hear the whole story. And Vision.

So not even Tonys side agrees with Tony

I highly doubt Tony and Cap couldn't pull strings and get him the help he needed.
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Cap was wrong.

Wanda's actions prove it. Cap is like that cop who wants to investigate themselves and say it is all clear.

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