Current Events > Reddit Found a way for women to bypass Texas abortion laws

(+) Yeah! (+)

Federal Religious Freedom rights make women who are members of The Satanic Temple exempt from state abortion laws

not ideal but when you are fighting satanic gop laws it fits

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Ah yes, reddit is such a good source of legal advice

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Heard people are flooding the report system with Shrek porn too.

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Thanks Satan!

I've known this for over 20 hours. They're an amazing group that helps combat these unjust laws.

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BroodRyu posted...

Thanks Satan!

MC_BatCommander posted...

Heard people are flooding the report system with Shrek porn too.

This seems like a more effective way to fight this

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MC_BatCommander posted...

Heard people are flooding the report system with Shrek porn too.

hah, nice

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Unfortunately, this doesn't work. The Satanic Temple have been trying to make this magic happen on religious freedom grounds, but every legal challenge they've engaged with has failed.

They like to talk it up as this great religious freedom loophole and conveniently leave out that in every legal setting they've tried to get this through, it's failed.

I won't go into a whole spiel about it, but while philosophical/religious satanism is a cool idea, the actual institution of The Satanic Temple is a hypocritical mess run by a couple of litigious carnies - both "Anton LaVey" and "Lucien Greaves" come from carny backgrounds and have changed their names to sound more "Satanic". LaVey has been known to rub shoulders with virulent anti-semites, and the Satanic Temple is a for-profit organisation filed as a business, not a church - and the lawsuits they get into, like that Chilling Adventures of Sabrina lawsuit from a few years ago, are big publicity shows to secure more funding to tilt at windmills. They almost never win any court case they're a part of - and the "satanic ritual of abortion" is no different.

Satanism as a counterpoint to Christianity is interesting, but the Satanic Temple run by these two clown fucks is a dogshit organisation and ruling abortion as a satanic ritual and defensible on religious grounds just doesn't work. They've tried, they've failed multiple times, but they keep advertising like "this is our only hope!" so that the next edgy schmuck will hopefully give them money to take it to court again. But they'll lose again, because they're notoriously lousy in court.

Also, they like to dole out SLAPP suits. They're suing 4 previous members of the organisation for posting in support of BLM. It's on the grounds of "political neutrality", but as previously mentioned, LaVey liked to rub shoulders with at least one prominent anti-Semite. So beware the Satanic Temple - not because Satanism is evil and bad, because philosophical/religious satanism is moreso a worldview that challenges power structures and hegemony with satire, but because it's a crummy org run by a couple of SLAPP-happy conmen who advertise on provocative but ultimately ineffectual tactics like this one.

Edit: man I said I wasn't gonna go into a whole spiel, but here we are.

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Halo478 posted...

not ideal but when you are fighting satanic gop laws it fits

seems pretty ideal

MrMallard posted...

Satanism as a counterpoint to Christianity is interesting, but the Satanic Temple run by these two clown f***s is a dogs*** organisation and ruling abortion as a satanic ritual and defensible on religious grounds just doesn't work. They've tried, they've failed multiple times, but they keep advertising like "this is our only hope!" so that the next edgy schmuck will hopefully give them money to take it to court again. But they'll lose again, because they're notoriously lousy in court.

they sued in mississippi specifically on this subject knowing they'd lose so that they could appeal to the supreme court

also your statement about their current status is false.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/irs-satanic-temple-church-tax-exempt-826931/

the Satanic Temple has officially been granted tax-exempt status by the IRS, according to a post from the religions official Instagram account.
Being granted tax-exempt status essentially means that the Satanic Temple has the same legal protections that other religions do, including access to public spaces as other religious organizations; affirming its standing in court when battling religious discrimination; and enabling The Satanic Temple to apply for faith-based government grants, according to a press release sent to Rolling Stone.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BwpikC5hJrY/?utm_source=ig_embed
Although the Satanic Temple had previously rejected pursuing tax-exempt status, church president Lucien Greaves reversed this stance in 2017 after President Trump signed a religious freedom executive order.

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shockthemonkey posted...

Thanks for posting all this, TST is generally trash and their philosophy is Ayn Rand bullshit and the most successful thing theyve ever done is raise money for a statue

Like I wish the stuff they were doing was actually good but they just generally suck and its frustrating.

a lot of what he posted is outdated and wrong, see my edited post above

no argument as to whether they suck but they have now checked the requisite boxes to provide a legitimate workaround to the abortion laws and force the SCOTUS to make a ruling on whether religious freedom is for christians only

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I'll believe it when I see it. I don't trust the org as far as I can throw it.

But for the sake of women's reproductive rights, I hope it works.

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shockthemonkey posted...

Thanks for posting all this, TST is generally trash and their philosophy is Ayn Rand bullshit and the most successful thing theyve ever done is raise money for a statue

Like I wish the stuff they were doing was actually good but they just generally suck and its frustrating.

You've both got TST confused with the Church of Satan. Church of Satan is the one founded by LaVey

https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/what-is-the-difference-between-the-satanic-temple-and-the-church-of-satan

With unfortunate regularity, The Satanic Temple is confused with an earlier organization, the Church of Satan, founded by Anton Szandor LaVey in the 1960s, to the apparent chagrin of both. The Church of Satan expresses vehement opposition to the campaigns and activities of The Satanic Temple, asserting themselves as the only true arbiters of Satanism, while The Satanic Temple dismisses the Church of Satan as irrelevant and inactive.

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Forcing women to worship Satan to own the libs

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It's always hilarious how much misinformation is constantly circling around on various news sources. Anytime there is any sort of challenge to Roe v Wade especially. People absolutely lose their minds on abortion.

In either case, abortion rights are always very over blown and some blow hard will react to this as if I hate women or something when I am very much pro choice.

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TommyG663513 posted...

when I am very much pro choice.

We all know this is bullshit. You're fooling no one.
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My bad. But my criticisms of the Satanic Temple remain. Doug Mesner (Lucien Greaves) and "Malcolm Jarry" are still cons, and the organisation is still SLAPP-happy and legally ineffective.

Again, I don't trust them as far as I can throw them. For the sake of women's reproductive rights, I hope this succeeds. But I'll express right now that I don't have faith in this organisation, and I don't think this will go anywhere because they suck in court. Not just in the "we need to get this to the supreme court!" way, but in a "mishandles legal documents in a way that fucks them in the ass" way and a "sue former members for misrepresenting us in an uneven and hypocritical fashion" way.

Like as someone who's interested in satanism, I think it's important to question institutions. A great part of satanism is having a duty to yourself as well as to others, and a part of that is questioning power structures and institutions. I cannot, in good conscience, take the Satanic Temple at their word as an organisation given their legal fuckups and their SLAPP suits. The philosophy is sound, the institution isn't. At least, that's my opinion on it.

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Someone explain Satanism to me pls, as someone who has never looked into it, my perception is it's evil because it worships Satan

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Hail Satan
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AlCalavicci posted...

Someone explain Satanism to me pls, as someone who has never looked into it, my perception is it's evil because it worships Satan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Satan

It's basically a protest religion against Abrahamic faiths. They use "Satan" in the meaning of the Hebrew term for "adversary". They believe themselves as adversarial to, among other things, American Christianity.

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

We all know this is bullshit. You're fooling no one.

@UnholyMudcrab

Why would you think I am not pro choice?

My post is about people constantly overreacting to any sort of abortion news and how it can be difficult to discern what information is accurate. Keep in mind, this is a topic about people supposedly being able to get around abortion laws by joining a satanist group. Just lol all around.

Also, you accusing me of not at all being pro choice actually supports my statement about how people tend to overreact when abortion is brought up.

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TommyG663513 posted...

@UnholyMudcrab

Why would you think I am not pro choice?

My post is about people constantly overreacting to any sort of abortion news and how it can be difficult to discern what information is accurate. Keep in mind, this is a topic about people supposedly being able to get around abortion laws by joining a satanist group. Just lol all around.

Also, you accusing me of not at all being pro choice actually supports my statement about how people tend to overreact when abortion is brought up.

they use their tags to have adversaries to give meaning to their sad lives. kind of like memento

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I've been light on sources, so here's what I mean.

GoFundMe for the four ex-members targeted by a SLAPP suit:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/legal-fund-for-victims-of-satanic-temple1

Satanic Temple hires Alex Jones/Daily Stormer lawyer:
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/9/17669894/satanic-temple-alt-right-marc-randazza-lawyer-lucien-greaves

Lucien Greaves/Doug Mesner has a long history of antisemitic comments and aligning with bigots:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SatanicTemple_Reddit/comments/nicler/concern_regarding_lucien_greaves_tsts_leadership/

Of particular note is a podcast he engaged with for a reprint of the book Might is Right, during which his co-host espouses holocaust denialism. I was wrong about LaVey rubbing elbows with anti-semites: it was Doug Mesner.

TST sues a billboard company on religious grounds after they refuse to advertise their "satanic abortion rights" billboards, despite there being no legal precedent for this being the case yet:
https://apnews.com/article/arkansas-religious-discrimination-discrimination-lawsuits-massachusetts-ea517a4e8d534980901587be88013195

Like the reason they weren't advertised is because what they were trying to advertise was false. They sued the company - on religious grounds - then went to another billboard company and paid for the ad under a different business.

What's more, the TST made it out that it was ads like this being targeted:


When it was ads like this, which had no legal backing at the time - and still has no legal backing:

Like I'm sorry, but the TST stinks. This isn't even getting into the web of companies and corporate entities tied to the TST either. Lucien Greaves is a charlatan and the organisation sucks.

Wake me up when they accomplish an actually progressive goal, like making abortion a satanic ritual to protect it under religious rights. But I don't at all have faith in such a disingenuous, shitty org like the Satanic Temple.

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ledbowman posted...

they use their tags to have adversaries to give meaning to their sad lives. kind of like memento

Yeah I've noticed this more and more. No one wants to address an actual argument anymore.

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MrMallard posted...

My bad. But my criticisms of the Satanic Temple remain. Doug Mesner (Lucien Greaves) and "Malcolm Jarry" are still cons, and the organisation is still SLAPP-happy and legally ineffective.

Again, I don't trust them as far as I can throw them. For the sake of women's reproductive rights, I hope this succeeds. But I'll express right now that I don't have faith in this organisation, and I don't think this will go anywhere because they suck in court. Not just in the "we need to get this to the supreme court!" way, but in a "mishandles legal documents in a way that fucks them in the ass" way and a "sue former members for misrepresenting us in an uneven and hypocritical fashion" way.

Like as someone who's interested in satanism, I think it's important to question institutions. A great part of satanism is having a duty to yourself as well as to others, and a part of that is questioning power structures and institutions. I cannot, in good conscience, take the Satanic Temple at their word as an organisation given their legal fuckups and their SLAPP suits. The philosophy is sound, the institution isn't. At least, that's my opinion on it.

I should note I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment of the institution, just that distinguishing between the two is important.

As an anarchist, I'm deeply skeptical of institutions like this anyway; I see a huge red flag in the fact that Lucian Greaves is propped up as a figurehead for the organization. There was a big deal about the LA chapter withdrawing from the organization after Lucian hired Alex Jones's lawyer in a Twitter lawsuit, which implies to me that the chapters don't come together as a whole to democratically vote on these kinds of actions.

The tenets are agreeable, but the execution is suspect as shit imo.

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AlCalavicci posted...

Someone explain Satanism to me pls, as someone who has never looked into it, my perception is it's evil because it worships Satan

Satanism is a lot of things. Traditionally it's been a way of othering, which might be why contemporary groups began to explore a philosophical understanding of Satanism - taking the basic tenets of Lucifer's story in the Bible and framing it in a sympathetic light. In that sense, Satanism is like a postmodern take on religion.

My understanding of it is that you have a duty to yourself over anyone else, though you have as much duty to help others if you can. That's one tenet stemming from LaVeyan Satanism, which was the first popular religious approach to Satanism started by a bunch of carnies: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism

The specific tenet I'm speaking about is "Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates." There are other tenets such as "Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit" and "Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence."

What I choose to take out of that is "be good to yourself and others". It's basically "don't be trodden on, but don't tread on others".

A more modern organisation is the Satanic Temple, which has its problems, but ideologically it bills itself as progressive and critical of institutions.

Satanism is essentially a philosophy that's heavy on transgressive rhetoric and satire. It can be judged as hedonistic, but aspects such as giving kindness to those who deserve it as opposed to feeling obligated to share it with ingrates make it a powerful tool to criticize institutional religion. Saying that, Satanism isn't strictly theistic or anti-theistic - like if a Satanist uses the critical nature of Satanism to be a bigot, i.e. by targeting Jews or Muslims, that's some guy being an asshole.

Nothing about Satanism is about harassing others for their preferred religious beliefs. It's about being true to yourself, your desires and your needs, and criticizing the people and groups who would restrict those things out of some sense of moral duty.

That's what I take from Satanism, anyway. I think it's really cool philosophically, but any Satanist organisation is subject to the same scrutiny of any other religious institution. After all, I have no loyalty to an organisation that doesn't respect my values, and the TST makes a big show of appealing to those values while going against them in some significantly fucked up ways. That's why I'm being so harsh on them in this thread.

Long story short, it's a conversation piece and a philosophy that presents an interesting counterpoint to conservative religious organisations.

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Gwynevere posted...

I should note I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment of the institution, just that distinguishing between the two is important.

As an anarchist, I'm deeply skeptical of institutions like this anyway; I see a huge red flag in the fact that Lucian Greaves is propped up as a figurehead for the organization. There was a big deal about the LA chapter withdrawing from the organization after Lucian hired Alex Jones's lawyer in a Twitter lawsuit, which implies to me that the chapters don't come together as a whole to democratically vote on these kinds of actions.

The tenets are agreeable, but the execution is suspect as shit imo.

You're right. I got them pretty mixed up in my fervor to post, I was misinformed. I've spent some time looking some stuff up and solidifying what I want to say. Sorry if I came off as indignant or rude, just got a little worked up.

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TommyG663513 posted...

It's always hilarious how much misinformation is constantly circling around on various news sources. Anytime there is any sort of challenge to Roe v Wade especially. People absolutely lose their minds on abortion.

In either case, abortion rights are always very over blown and some blow hard will react to this as if I hate women or something when I am very much pro choice.

What do you mean by "abortion rights are always very over blown"?

ledbowman posted...

they use their tags to have adversaries to give meaning to their sad lives. kind of like memento

Or like Trump

ledbowman posted...

they use their tags to have adversaries to give meaning to their sad lives. kind of like memento

He says unironically while complaining off site everytime he gets modded lmao

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Ruvan22 posted...

TommyG663513 posted...

It's always hilarious how much misinformation is constantly circling around on various news sources. Anytime there is any sort of challenge to Roe v Wade especially. People absolutely lose their minds on abortion.

In either case, abortion rights are always very over blown and some blow hard will react to this as if I hate women or something when I am very much pro choice.

What do you mean by "abortion rights are always very over blown"?

Doesn't he just sound like the most pro-choice guy you've ever known?
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Skype posted...

He says unironically while complaining off site everytime he gets modded lmao

you mean like twice

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MrMallard posted...

taking the basic tenets of Lucifer's story in the Bible and framing it in a sympathetic light.

I always found this interesting since you have to make some pretty big stretches to think that Lucifer is the same being in the bible as satan. Satanism is more reframing middle ages/rennaissance era christian pop culture than the bible. Dante's Inferno / Paradise Lost.

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Church of Satan is weird, most TST people i've met and interacted with are genuinely some of the nicest folk ever. A lot of their ideas align with the way I go about things and i've had a great time interacting with them before

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All this talk of Satanism reminds me that Lucifer final season starts on the 10th!!!

The Satanic Temple is all about using the rights idiotic laws against them.

Theyre the only group actually fighting these bastards

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shockthemonkey posted...

Also Jesus fuck @ Tommy, Texas outlaws abortion and the Supreme Court looks poised to overturn Roe and he wants to talk over women and pregnant people to tell them its not a big deal

Everyone hasn't blocked him already?

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Ruvan22 posted...

What do you mean by "abortion rights are always very over blown"?

I mean, they aren't the be all end all of women's rights. People act like the sky is falling anytime there is any challenge to this stuff whatsoever. Abortion rights are something people will see in extremely black and white terms. I mean @UnholyMudcrab is here accusing me of not being pro choice because I'm adding a mild but of nuance to a sky is falling narrative.

You can both be very pro choice, but also hate some of the narratives that pro choice people tend to push.

I agree that the new law that was just passed in Texas is very concerning and something to keep an eye on, but many people take memes like the one of the new Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders wearing the Handmaid's Tales outfits a little too literally. Ultimately, it does take a while after a law is enacted to understand the full extent of what exactly it will do. I don't like the law at all, but you still can't necessarily say how harmful it will or won't be until it has played out a bit at least.

Then you have stuff like this Satanist group trying to argue that membership to their religion will make you exempt from this law. This sounds even more stupid on the surface than this new Texas law so I'm kind of rolling my eyes here.

If you want me to go off on pro life people I can do that too very easily. This isn't really a topic about pro lifers so much so I haven't brought it up. Seeing as I fundamentally disagree with their methodology of reducing abortions by making it illegal they're not exactly a hard group for me to ridicule.

Then I can go off on some tangents and ramble about how the modern feminism movement has mostly been hijacked by privileged white women and minority women arguably face more issues due to their status as racial minorities than as women, but being a woman still plays a part which brings me to the wage gap and how if you break it up by racial lines and gendered lines it tells an extremely different story and....

Yet some people call me a MAGA just for saying maybe every mainstream argument being pushed by left leaning establishments isn't actually the best policy for left leaning positions

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TommyG663513 posted...

something to keep an eye on

TommyG663513 posted...

Ultimately, it does take a while after a law is enacted to understand the full extent of what exactly it will do.

https://tinyurl.com/nbcnewslink3

Since mid-August, all 11 of the Planned Parenthood health centers in Texas that provide abortion services have stopped scheduling visits after Sept. 1 for abortions past six weeks of pregnancy. Planned Parenthood's decision was prompted by a law known as S.B. 8, which bans abortions in Texas as early as six weeks into pregnancy.

But unlike other states' anti-abortion laws, Texas' ban bars state officials from enforcing it and instead allows individuals to sue an abortion provider or anyone who may have helped someone get an abortion after the limit and seek financial damages of at least $10,000 per defendant.

TommyG663513 posted...

I don't like the law at all, but you still can't necessarily say how harmful it will or won't be until it has played out a bit at least.

It is actively being played out, because supply chains exist so abortion providers started preparing for it weeks ago.

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Sackgurl posted...

https://tinyurl.com/nbcnewslink3

Since mid-August, all 11 of the Planned Parenthood health centers in Texas that provide abortion services have stopped scheduling visits after Sept. 1 for abortions past six weeks of pregnancy. Planned Parenthood's decision was prompted by a law known as S.B. 8, which bans abortions in Texas as early as six weeks into pregnancy.

But unlike other states' anti-abortion laws, Texas' ban bars state officials from enforcing it and instead allows individuals to sue an abortion provider or anyone who may have helped someone get an abortion after the limit and seek financial damages of at least $10,000 per defendant.

It is actively being played out, because supply chains exist so abortion providers started preparing for it weeks ago.

Sweet so some planned parent hoods closed down.

People can sue abortion providers who continue to operate in Texas. Let's see how a lawsuit actually plays out. No doubt some pro lifers have already been working on this.

I guess there is also something of a snitch line that pro choice activists have been advertising for pro choice advocates to troll and render this part of the process ineffective for enforcing this new law.

Quite frankly, abortion is the last line of defense in pregnancy prevention. There are all sorts of contraceptives available. Though closing a bunch of planned parenthoods still reduces contraceptive availability. Abortion is not without it's own potential health complications as nothing is 100% safe and effective and it is still something people should try to avoid if they can. In the same sense that people should try to avoid surgery or other similar health procedures if they can.

In terms of contraceptive availability, I would hope that pro choice activists are able to organize something to increase availability wherever they can.

Perhaps transportation can be provided to out of state areas where abortion access is available. For those without the means to transport themselves.

The point is that there are always ways to fight a law and the social impact it could have. I'd certainly argue that these counter measures shouldn't have to be taken and abortion access should be readily available, but hey I disagree with the law as do many others.

My point isn't that people shouldn't at all be worried about these things. I very much think they should, but people can still overly dramatize things. Contraceptive use alone allows people to have sex and avoid pregnancy the vast majority of the time. You could use multiple contraceptives if you wanted. You also don't necessarily have to have sex ever or as much. Maybe quality over quantity I guess lol. Again, there is a long list of ways to avoid pregnancy.

Then there is the reality of life and people aren't perfect and people do get pregnant and sometimes the woman is 100% a victim and my heart goes out to them and I hope they can somehow get the proper care they need and these are the people I think of most when I think of how much I don't like this law.

The thing is they also aren't representative of every single woman in Texas. There's a lot of hyperbole being thrown around like this law makes women second class citizens.

A law can be very much wrong and some people can react to a law that is wrong with overly dramatic reactions that simply aren't proportional to the ugly reality behind the law.

Abortion law is just one of those issues that people tend to get extremely emotional about and see very little grey area in.

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People need to start wrapping it up or getting some serious BC cuz texas is about to snap back even harder from the sounds of it.

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I should also add that this ban is only for Abortions after 6 weeks. Which about 85-90% of abortions occur after this point. It isn't a complete ban on them, but certainly a very significant reduction in access.

But to counter that point, it is possible that legislation like this could spread into states with similar or stronger conservative leanings than Texas.

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Tag

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MC_BatCommander posted...

Heard people are flooding the report system with Shrek porn too.

Lmao