Board 8 > Euro 2020 Topic 4 - Italy vs England

(+) Yeah! (+)

ENGLAND FINALLY MADE IT TO ANOTHER TOURNAMENT FINAL WOO! Now watch Italy win 4-0 or something on Sunday.

---

https://youtu.be/vFgeIfVFl58

---

I don't feel the toxic hatred for Italy that I do for others and they've been the best team in the tournament so far.

I imagine a 1-0 Italy win and that'd be fair

---

Italy is going to crush them

Go Italia I guess.
---

The next day - England deserved the victory, but I'd be much happier about it if they had won without getting a soft penalty right after there were two balls on the pitch.

Major probs to the Danish team for making such a wonderful performance despite of the most horrible experience at the beginning of the tournament. Very admirable mentality!

Now, screw UEFA for not having a bronze match like most other international tournaments, I want us to play Spain.

---

Anyway, going back to english fans vs ctes, given the behavior during the denmark game (booing the anthem, laser pointer), and given that afaik england stands to be the only team this tournament charged with fan infractions, I don't think it's an unfair take to say they've been the worst this tournament. But also, that is definitely not what was conveyed at first before ctes clarified that we're talking just this tournament, so I don't think the outrage at bein called "The worst fanbase" is unfair either, especially since as we've established, it's not representative of the fanbase as a whole. Which that last sentiment is something I think we all understand and agree with.
---

Emeraldegg posted...

english fans vs ctes

Picturing ctes re-enacting the Kingsman church scene except it's a pub and his victims are face-painted Brexity motherfuckers

---

I mean, I'm not trying to dramatize this or anything or paint ctes in particular in a bad light, but it was clear to me that there was a line in the last topic of "Ctes saying english fans are the worst" vs "English fans who dispute that"
---

I'm behind England but If We play like *shit* and lose then We deserve to.

---

Emeraldegg posted...

I mean, I'm not trying to dramatize this or anything or paint ctes in particular in a bad light, but it was clear to me that there was a line in the last topic of "Ctes saying english fans are the worst" vs "English fans who dispute that"

No no it's fine I just like that mental image

---

I think for once we actually got the two best teams in the final. Rooting for England but Ive said the same thing during this whole tournament: We can start talking about who will win the whole thing once Italy is out.

---

Yeah i'd say we've got the best 2 teams in the final. Not expecting us to win it but i'm just proud to see England in a final. Who knows next year we may grow even more.

---

Even if England don't win this tournament, they will be firmly established as a top 3 contender for the World Cup.

Anyone trades a Euro final loss for a WC.
Italy, France and Germany did that.

---

Generally, do squads not change much between euro and WC time?
---

France started Sagna, Payet, Evra, Koscielny, Sissoko with options like Gignac off the bench....yeah that Euro team had a lot of guys no longer at their absolute peak or guys who were stars for good but not elite teams.

So that was an overhauled defense and Kante and Mbappe for the World Cup.

Italy and Germany both won 6 years later as the young guys hit their primes and the new emerging talent hit the ground running.

England can totally do what France did at a better starting point. (Mind Italy can too when taking into account the talent that's hyped but not in their squad)

---

I agree that it's probably the best two teams in the final. I'd accept it if anyone argued Belgium, but otherwise yes.

---

Emeraldegg posted... Generally, do squads not change much between euro and WC time?

Someone else can probably better answer this, but it's dependant on a number of factors, including whether certain players call it quits for their international career, certain players unable to compete due to being sidelined with an injury, younger players coming in, change in manager, etc.

There's usually a 2 year gap between tournaments, but for the most part the majority of the national squad from the previous tournament stays the same.

---

The fact that we're in an odd situation where the WC 17 months away i doubt many squads will change.

---

First time I've managed to get more than 5 wears out of an England shirt!

(Note: Switch between Home and Away)

---

England's squad between 2014 and 2018 was massively different.

It changes a bit every two years but not significantly

---

Italy in 1

Suns in 4

---

England Squad might not change much for WC but starting lineup will.

Can see GK, Fullbacks, and a winger swapped out with Bellingham also a good candidate to get one of the two midfield slots if he continues his meteoric rise.

---

Looking ahead to the final Italy haven't been behind yet. We know how England coped and managed to get back into a game from being behind but i wonder how Italy would fare. With the players they have up top you'd think they'd have no problems but this will be a final and they could lose their heads a bit.

---

I'm expecting Italy to fall to the floor as soon as they are touched

---

Cavedweller2000 posted...

I'm expecting Italy to fall to the floor as soon as they are breathed on and start crying like the cheating, whingeing hypocrites they are

---

Well they just saw it work in extra time against us so

Edit: I'm sorry, I need to let that go.

---

And this crying for a replay? We didn't cry for one against the Germans, Portugal, Brazil or whoever knocked us out of whatever competition and I doubt we would if the Danes booted us out...

---

England are pretty bad for diving, just not as bad as some other countries. Italy, Portugal, Spain and the south American countries spring to mind. I really detest it personally and wish it wasn't part of the game. I'd far rather see tough defense and players battling to stay on their feet but until they bring in strict retrospective punishment, it's here to stay.

I watch Basketball as much as Football and the amount of soft fouls in Basketball drives me crazy too.

Seems sports always gives the advantage to offense and flair players because it's better for viewing figures and narratives than no nonsense defense.

Hardcore_Adult posted...

And this crying for a replay? We didn't cry for one against the Germans, Portugal, Brazil or whoever knocked us out of whatever competition and I doubt we would if the Danes booted us out...

People absolutely did in 2010, they were just morons that should be ignored

Same as here

---

My personal opinion is if you are on the floor for more than 5 seconds after a tackle/foul then you MUST leave the pitch for medical attention

---

England don't even need to be touched to hit the floor.
Grealish goes down whenever there's a slight breeze in his approximate area, but hey gets results.

---

Crying for replays always happen in any match that has at least one semi-controversial call, it's more apparent now than it used to be because of social media.

Obviously most people aren't actually crying for a replay, but the ones doing it aren't because of the booing, but everything concerning the penalty, from the two ball on the pitch, to the dive, to the laser pointer. Considering we've lost a match 3-0 13 years ago for a single fan running onto the pitch and attempting to attack the referee in a match that was 3-3 at time of the incident, I get it feels unfair, and I genuinely don't understand nothing was done about the laser during the match.

I do believe the case here is better than it usually is, but that isn't saying much and I'm not gonna sign any petition demanding a replay. If anything should have been done, it should have been done during the match, now it's over. This part of the match isn't exactly out proudest moment, but it's not uncommon at all.

---

Also I need to rant about this fucking Sterling thing - not aimed at anybody here, especially not ctes, who has been way better about this whole thing than I would have been, just at the general reaction to the incident

In 66 England won (at least in part) because the ball didn't cross the line for the 3rd goal. In 86 Maradona punched it in. Those are objective refereeing errors. This was just down to judgement. The Danish players miss the ball and there's contact on Sterling (by two different players, in fact). It is totally valid to say Sterling had lost control of the ball, or the contact was not sufficient to inhibit him, etc. Not all contact is a foul, after all. It's also completely fair to say it was one though because no replay can give us an idea of Sterling's exact speed or balance in that moment, the effect of the contact on his body.

VAR looked at it and at least decided that it wasn't not a penalty. The rules for an incident like that are at the mercy of interpretation and we shouldn't pretend otherwise.

This is more akin to the Campbell disallowed goal in 98 (or Lampard's in 2004). That wasn't a travesty of justice. There's a clear case to be made that Shearer fouled the Argentinian goalkeeper off the ball. That doesn't mean you have to agree but there's validity to the argument either way.

People complaining about this have put it alongside the hand of god, acting like it's that level of travesty, and it's just... not. That's how history will judge it; soft, very soft even, but ultimately giveable and justifiable, especially in the current context of how fouls are being judged. It's totally fine to disagree, but don't pretend it's anything more than mere disagreement. This was not a player punching it in, this was not a goal being given despite not crossing the line, this was a defender missing the ball and making contact with the attacker who has every right to go down at that moment.

It's a danger of VAR to treat incidents as black and white. It's not a one size fits all saving grace to fix refereeing "mistakes" forever; many incidents are still at the mercy of subjective interpretation by the ref because the laws of the game mean it's impossible for that not to be the case.

I'm not saying Danish fans (or whoever wanted Denmark to win) shouldn't feel aggrieved, and I won't lie: I'm obviously more invested in this than I normally would be. It's just a mistake to present this as a huge travesty. This was not Denmark's hand of god - that's wildly overstating things. And if you're drawing a line between those two things - as I expect most b8ers would - then there's no issue.

My stance here is basically: I'm not saying it absolutely was a penalty, but I'm not saying it absolutely was not a penalty. It's in kind of a grey area, at the mercy of subjective interpretation, and the VAR decided the ref wasn't factually, obviously wrong.

tl;dr: by all means feel shitty about this; I would if it happened to England, but a distinction needs to be made between this and genuine, indisputable travesties.

---

I don't think the laser pointer or two balls are relevant.

For the two balls they played it exactly per the rulebook so not sure how there can be any complaint there.

For the laser pointer, yes it's stupid and shouldn't happen but it's not like this is the first time it happened. It's a frequent occurrence and nothing ever gets done because of it. Plus Schmeichel said he didn't even notice it so it clearly had no effect on him anyway.

The laser pointer has no in-game consequence at all, no. Especially since Schmeichel saved it. It's just more evidence of what we already knew: "many of our fans are shitty". Losing to a fanbase like that would leave a bad taste in the mouth for sure but in terms of any "injustice" it's basically irrelevant and just muddying the waters

---

I don't think most people are saying the last pointer made a direct difference (I'm sure some out there are claiming he would've kept on to it otherwise or whatever, but let's ignore those), I think it's the principle of it, because we've previously lost because of the ruthless beheavior of a single fan instead of just having that fan recieve all necessary punishment. That's the "injustice".

Obviously, the right decision was made here and the the wrong decision was made back then, not the other way around, but I believe it's what the reaction is coming from at least partially. I don't understand the reaction, though I do understand the frustration of course.

Schmeichel had noticed it during the second half and told the referee, it was just more apparent to the viewer during the penalty where he fortunately was not influenced by it. I do hope it's possible to identify the moron and fine him accordingly, but that's almost certainly not how it'll go.

---

I'm not saying Denmark auto-losing 3-0 was fair at all - seems more than a little excessive to me - but there's also a clear distinction between a fan using a laser pointer and a fan invading the pitch to attack the ref

---

Oh, absolutely, but neither made a difference on the game and both were stupid, that's enough for someone to draw a line.

Point was just that I don't think it's about what difference it made, only that it was not okay and wasn't dealt with right away.

With that said, I don't think you'll hear much about it ever again once the tournament is over so. Every outlet writing about it for us to read on the internet definitely makes it seem bigger than it probably is compared to some of the examples you listed earlier in different times, which would have exploded the internet today (if we ignore that current technology would have caught them).

---

I'm on the fence either way. There's arguments for and against. Whatever happened, happened.

But a laser pen that is powerful enough to reach the goalkeeper from the stands with that much clarity is surely powerful enough to damage Kasper's vision, even temporarily. OK, the intention is different to the fan attacking the ref but the outcome could have been the same?

And if in the Extreme circumstances that Schmeichel couldn't have continued due to impaired vision and Denmark had used all their subs...what then?

Luckily the laser pen didn't actually hit his eyeball...from what I saw at least

---

You push a man down in your box, you gotta take what's coming.

drop.

---

Redknapp just popped up on EastEnders lol.

---

https://twitter.com/LTCPLUS/status/1413214032312557572?s=19

---

The reactions on Reddit to the Sterling incident are proof that not enough people watch football, and those who tuned in are completely new to penalty incidents. Those of us who are used to the week in-week out were all like "oof, it's harsh sure but you do see those given" and those who aren't used to it are throwing their toys out the pram like it was a miscarriage of justice.

It's amazing that England have become the bad guy here when Italy are just generally an unlikable lot.

---

To be fair, I wouldn't put it past anyone to just complain like that every single time it happens week to week. Besides, something occurring often doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

Calling Italy an a general unlikable lot has less to do with this tournament and is more of a historical thing though, but half the English people here are still calling them out on it and then complains when I criticized English fans or media for something they have become better at.

Now Italy has still dived sure, but they haven't actually gotten anything from it this time. England got a controversial penalty here in a match that saw UEFA charge them with no less than three different things. Italy on the other hand took a lot of positive spotlight when they had used 25 of 26 players in the group games including subbing on a goalkeeper in a 1-0 lead just to give him playtime. It's also my impression that some of the players are very popular all over.

So not saying you're necessarily wrong about who's the bad guy (though I don't really think anyone is personally), but it's pretty clear to me how the circumstances made it that way.

---

ExThaNemesis posted...

It's amazing that England have become the bad guy here when Italy are just generally an unlikable lot.

With England there's a general undercurrent of distaste due to the overstated "arrogance", the media, the fans, the government, etc, which I get, because we've sucked as a nation more or less since we invaded Iraq in 2003, ramping down even more in 2010, then even further in 2016. It's also partly why we've done badly at Eurovision for decades. (To be clear: there's a valid argument that due to colonialism we have basically always sucked, but I'm talking more about general perception, which definitely took a downturn when we followed Bush into Iraq; this is also when we stopped doing well in Eurovision for example.)

But people have been waiting for a footballing incident to justify that distaste in the context of this specific tournament, which is hard because it's a fairly likeable squad/manager playing at its level. It's the internet so "I just don't like them" isn't sufficient - you need a reason to latch onto. Previously it was the "easy" run to the final or being pseudo-hosts but they were more abstract than a "dive", which apparently renders any complaint against Italy totally invalid, even if they were to do the same thing as Sterling (or worse) 100 times and, in one stroke, has completely destroyed this reputation for "fair play" we apparently had (even though the Danish player mistimed his tackle).

Football fans are irrational and always have been, but on the internet people need concrete justifications for their dislike so they'll latch onto anything - leading to Sterling's would-be "dive" being blown massively out of proportion.

---

ctesjbuvf posted...

Now Italy has still dived sure, but they haven't actually gotten anything from it this time.

Italy killed the last 15-20 minutes against Belgium by doing this btw. Felt like the ball was actually in play for about 5 minutes of that period.

---

I thought the sterling "dive" had already been cleared up.

Penalty likely given not for the guy behind him, who looks like he clips him but didnt touch him. Penalty likely given for the guy who stepped hip first into him after the ball passed, impeding progress in a goal scoring situation.

If it was cut and dry not a penalty and he only got it for the dive, the VAR would have overturned it. As the rules for overturning are it has to be clearly not the call on the pitch.

As an aside, can we separate the Team from the Fans. Yes England got charged for 3 things. None of those things were done by The England Team. A subset of fans being complete nobs doesnt make the team an unsportsmanlike team.

---

Idk, I think it's 100% fine to not want a team to win because of their fans. This is why Liverpool winning anything is offensive and should be prevented at pretty much any cost.

---