Poll of the Day > Why is prostituion illegal?

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Zeus 05/10/21 6:51:15 PM #51:	adjl posted... Not remotely. "It's illegal because most people in power keep voting to keep it that way" is pretty much straight tautology. It explains nothing about the reasons behind voting that way, meaning it doesn't answer "why?" in the slightest. It's not so much that they keeping that way as it is one of the few things the left and right can broadly agree on. And if you're pigeonholing like that, then even your explanation ultimately explains nothing. adjl posted... While true, and definitely a major factor behind people wanting it to stay illegal, keeping it illegal really just makes that worse in every way. I'm not sure why so many people refuse to see that. Plus Oni's post is stupid because there are countless other jobs that are "pretty demoralizing and miserable 99% of the time". If we applied that standard across all industries, that would eliminate most retail and food service jobs. BlackJackCat posted... I can see how a lot of people would lose money if they legalized prostitution, at the very least the people selling an inferior "product" might have trouble competing if someone is willing to give the whole package. I don't know if the mainstream porn industry would suffer as a whole, but the more I think about it, the less the alternatives seem attractive. People selling sex wouldn't make porn go away. Those are fairly separate markets. I'm not even sure it would kill strip joints, although many would have to become multi-purpose. And honestly, there are still kinda ugly people in porn and massive amounts of new porn being created so "inferior products" don't really seem to be an issue. Kanatteru posted... as usual the problem is capitalism because as long as we have that we'll have people forced to do sex work for survival. And how is that any different from people being forced to do other things they dislike for survival? >_> BlackJackCat posted... The thing is that most people on the outside look at prostitution in the more extreme situation, like the street walker who has no choice in who they have sex with to stay alive, and/or pay a pimp. The situation you're painting is an idealistic one where someone is willingly having sex with people they want because they can, while making money doing it, which I'm not saying it can't happen, but that's not the image that prostitution has. That's a side effect of our current system. When something is illegal, shadow markets develop. In a regulated system, you're far less likely to have issues with pimps, sex trafficking, and the like. And it's a lot easier to build shadow markets around sex work than virtually anything else, given the nature of sex work. wolfy42 posted... but honestly it's just religion that makes it illegal. Which is just completely flat-out wrong. For starters, the feminist crowd that protests prostitution is HEAVILY anti-religion. Beyond that, people have personal views irrespective of any religion or lack thereof. --- (\/)(\/)\|-\| There are precious few at ease / With moral ambiguities / So we act as though they don't exist. <cite>Zeus posted [p:953768479] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>adjl posted... </cite> <quote>Not remotely. "It's illegal because most people in power keep voting to keep it that way" is pretty much straight tautology. It explains nothing about the reasons behind voting that way, meaning it doesn't answer "why?" in the slightest.</quote> It's not so much that they keeping that way as it is one of the few things the left and right can broadly agree on. And if you're pigeonholing like that, then even your explanation ultimately explains nothing. adjl posted... </cite> <quote> While true, and definitely a major factor behind people wanting it to stay illegal, keeping it illegal really just makes that worse in every way. I'm not sure why so many people refuse to see that.</quote> Plus Oni's post is stupid because there are countless other jobs that are "pretty demoralizing and miserable 99% of the time". If we applied that standard across all industries, that would eliminate most retail and food service jobs. BlackJackCat posted... </cite> <quote>I can see how a lot of people would lose money if they legalized prostitution, at the very least the people selling an inferior "product" might have trouble competing if someone is willing to give the whole package. I don't know if the mainstream porn industry would suffer as a whole, but the more I think about it, the less the alternatives seem attractive.</quote> People selling sex wouldn't make porn go away. Those are fairly separate markets. I'm not even sure it would kill strip joints, although many would have to become multi-purpose. And honestly, there are still kinda ugly people in porn and massive amounts of new porn being created so "inferior products" don't really seem to be an issue. Kanatteru posted... </cite> <quote>as usual the problem is capitalism because as long as we have that we'll have people forced to do sex work for survival.</quote> And how is that any different from people being forced to do other things they dislike for survival? >_> BlackJackCat posted... </cite> <quote>The thing is that most people on the outside look at prostitution in the more extreme situation, like the street walker who has no choice in who they have sex with to stay alive, and/or pay a pimp. The situation you're painting is an idealistic one where someone is willingly having sex with people they want because they can, while making money doing it, which I'm not saying it can't happen, but that's not the image that prostitution has.</quote> That's a side effect of our current system. When something is illegal, shadow markets develop. In a regulated system, you're far less likely to have issues with pimps, sex trafficking, and the like. And it's a lot easier to build shadow markets around sex work than virtually anything else, given the nature of sex work. <quote>wolfy42 posted... </cite>but honestly it's just religion that makes it illegal.</quote> Which is just completely flat-out wrong. For starters, the feminist crowd that protests prostitution is HEAVILY anti-religion. Beyond that, people have personal views irrespective of any religion or lack thereof. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BlackJackCat 05/10/21 7:04:27 PM #52:	Zeus posted... That's a side effect of our current system. When something is illegal, shadow markets develop. In a regulated system, you're far less likely to have issues with pimps, sex trafficking, and the like. And it's a lot easier to build shadow markets around sex work than virtually anything else, given the nature of sex work. Sure, I agree with that for the most part. I'm just saying, that's not what the critics of legalizing prostitution see. They don't see prostitution as evolving more to an organized transaction akin to escort services. They just see more people having dubiously consensual sex for money and the implications of what effect that has on a persons self. --- This issues still comes to mind now and then Cake was baking in the oven and mother was making tea for us <cite>BlackJackCat posted [p:953768888] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>Zeus posted... </cite> <quote>That's a side effect of our current system. When something is illegal, shadow markets develop. In a regulated system, you're far less likely to have issues with pimps, sex trafficking, and the like. And it's a lot easier to build shadow markets around sex work than virtually anything else, given the nature of sex work.</quote> Sure, I agree with that for the most part. I'm just saying, that's not what the critics of legalizing prostitution see. They don't see prostitution as evolving more to an organized transaction akin to escort services. They just see more people having dubiously consensual sex for money and the implications of what effect that has on a persons self. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
wolfy42 05/10/21 7:06:11 PM #53:	Zeus posted... Which is just completely flat-out wrong. For starters, the feminist crowd that protests prostitution is HEAVILY anti-religion. Beyond that, people have personal views irrespective of any religion or lack thereof. I highly doubt the "feminist crowd" would have caused prostitution to become illegal if the religious crowd hadn't already done that, especially if women had control of it themselves and were not being taken advantage of by men so often. Religion IS the underlying cause for most of our crazy views on sex in this country, and it is certainly why prostitution was originally made illegal, and therefore, is directly responsible for it being illegal now. --- Tacobot 3000 "Saving the world from not having tacos." Friends don't make their friends die Hanz. Psychopathic friends do. <cite>wolfy42 posted [p:953768949] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>Zeus posted... </cite> <quote>Which is just completely flat-out wrong. For starters, the feminist crowd that protests prostitution is HEAVILY anti-religion. Beyond that, people have personal views irrespective of any religion or lack thereof.</quote> I highly doubt the "feminist crowd" would have caused prostitution to become illegal if the religious crowd hadn't already done that, especially if women had control of it themselves and were not being taken advantage of by men so often. Religion IS the underlying cause for most of our crazy views on sex in this country, and it is certainly why prostitution was originally made illegal, and therefore, is directly responsible for it being illegal now. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BlackJackCat 05/10/21 7:18:45 PM #54:	wolfy42 posted... I highly doubt the "feminist crowd" would have caused prostitution to become illegal if the religious crowd hadn't already done that, especially if women had control of it themselves and were not being taken advantage of by men so often. As I said before, the current nature and view of prostitution is that it's on some level questionable as to the consensual nature of it. Now you could argue that it's only dubiously consensual now is because of how the system works, sort of like prohibition of alcohol did nothing to stop people from drinking, and made it incredibly unsafe in many cases, I'd totally agree with that myself. But feminism is about choice, and in a situation where a woman must submit to sex with strangers for money to survive that's not really a choice. Again you can see that as a case of not seeing the forest for the trees, but it's entirely likely that is how it could have played out. --- This issues still comes to mind now and then Cake was baking in the oven and mother was making tea for us <cite>BlackJackCat posted [p:953769307] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>wolfy42 posted... </cite> <quote>I highly doubt the "feminist crowd" would have caused prostitution to become illegal if the religious crowd hadn't already done that, especially if women had control of it themselves and were not being taken advantage of by men so often.</quote> As I said before, the current nature and view of prostitution is that it's on some level questionable as to the consensual nature of it. Now you could argue that it's only dubiously consensual now is because of how the system works, sort of like prohibition of alcohol did nothing to stop people from drinking, and made it incredibly unsafe in many cases, I'd totally agree with that myself. But feminism is about choice, and in a situation where a woman must submit to sex with strangers for money to survive that's not really a choice. Again you can see that as a case of not seeing the forest for the trees, but it's entirely likely that is how it could have played out. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mead 05/10/21 7:22:50 PM #55:	Im down for whatever reduces human trafficking --- YOU control the numbers of leches. -Sal Vulcano <cite>Mead posted [p:953769419] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>Im down for whatever reduces human trafficking </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Calamity316 05/10/21 7:40:56 PM #56:	Religious nut jobs and misogyny is the only reason . It should be legal cuz then it would be healthier for both parties involved and safer for the one doing it because its always gonna be a job no matter how hard they fight against it . The best most viable option is to legalize it and regulate it to make it a healthier and safer practice . If prostitutes can go to cops when they get robbed or raped they wouldnt need a pimp and if they dont need a pimp they wont get exploited . <cite>Calamity316 posted [p:953769943] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>Religious nut jobs and misogyny is the only reason . It should be legal cuz then it would be healthier for both parties involved and safer for the one doing it because its always gonna be a job no matter how hard they fight against it . The best most viable option is to legalize it and regulate it to make it a healthier and safer practice . If prostitutes can go to cops when they get robbed or raped they wouldnt need a pimp and if they dont need a pimp they wont get exploited . </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Calamity316 05/10/21 7:43:29 PM #57:	BlackJackCat posted... As I said before, the current nature and view of prostitution is that it's on some level questionable as to the consensual nature of it. Now you could argue that it's only dubiously consensual now is because of how the system works, sort of like prohibition of alcohol did nothing to stop people from drinking, and made it incredibly unsafe in many cases, I'd totally agree with that myself. But feminism is about choice, and in a situation where a woman must submit to sex with strangers for money to survive that's not really a choice. Again you can see that as a case of not seeing the forest for the trees, but it's entirely likely that is how it could have played out. why is it not consensual just because money is involved ? If the prostitute doesnt wanna have sex with someone they dont have to consent regardless of there being money involved and if she doesnt consent and the man forces himself on her then it is rape , regardless of wether he pays her afterwards or not . <cite>Calamity316 posted [p:953770021] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>BlackJackCat posted... </cite> <quote>As I said before, the current nature and view of prostitution is that it's on some level questionable as to the consensual nature of it. Now you could argue that it's only dubiously consensual now is because of how the system works, sort of like prohibition of alcohol did nothing to stop people from drinking, and made it incredibly unsafe in many cases, I'd totally agree with that myself. But feminism is about choice, and in a situation where a woman must submit to sex with strangers for money to survive that's not really a choice. Again you can see that as a case of not seeing the forest for the trees, but it's entirely likely that is how it could have played out.</quote> why is it not consensual just because money is involved ? If the prostitute doesnt wanna have sex with someone they dont have to consent regardless of there being money involved and if she doesnt consent and the man forces himself on her then it is rape , regardless of wether he pays her afterwards or not . </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BlackJackCat 05/10/21 7:53:04 PM #58:	Calamity316 posted... why is it not consensual just because money is involved ? If the prostitute doesnt wanna have sex with someone they dont have to consent regardless of there being money involved and if she doesnt consent and the man forces himself on her then it is rape , regardless of wether he pays her afterwards or not . I never said it was "not consensual" it's just that it's not really consensual either if your motive is "I sleep with this person and eat, or don't and starve." Between two bad situations, people usually pick the one that keeps them alive, but that doesn't mean it's okay. An example I saw before was in the case of a rape where a woman begged her attacker to use a condom. Does that imply consent then suddenly? No, because she's still being forced to do something against her will, mitigating the consequences doesn't make it any better, just like telling yourself that "she has a choice" in a dire situation makes it any less scummy. --- This issues still comes to mind now and then Cake was baking in the oven and mother was making tea for us <cite>BlackJackCat posted [p:953770338] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>Calamity316 posted... </cite> <quote>why is it not consensual just because money is involved ? If the prostitute doesnt wanna have sex with someone they dont have to consent regardless of there being money involved and if she doesnt consent and the man forces himself on her then it is rape , regardless of wether he pays her afterwards or not .</quote> I never said it was "not consensual" it's just that it's not really consensual either if your motive is "I sleep with this person and eat, or don't and starve." Between two bad situations, people usually pick the one that keeps them alive, but that doesn't mean it's okay. An example I saw before was in the case of a rape where a woman begged her attacker to use a condom. Does that imply consent then suddenly? No, because she's still being forced to do something against her will, mitigating the consequences doesn't make it any better, just like telling yourself that "she has a choice" in a dire situation makes it any less scummy. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Calamity316 05/10/21 7:58:06 PM #59:	BlackJackCat posted... I never said it was "not consensual" it's just that it's not really consensual either if your motive is "I sleep with this person and eat, or don't and starve." Between two bad situations, people usually pick the one that keeps them alive, but that doesn't mean it's okay. An example I saw before was in the case of a rape where a woman begged her attacker to use a condom. Does that imply consent then suddenly? No, because she's still being forced to do something against her will, mitigating the consequences doesn't make it any better, just like telling yourself that "she has a choice" in a dire situation makes it any less scummy. that is still a false equivalency and if its legalized and she wasnt forced into it , she chose the profession , you could use that same argument for ppl who strip or do porn or any other type of sex work . But they chose to do that job cuz its more profitable . And that makes the choice to sleep with someone for money consensual cuz they could always choose another job . <cite>Calamity316 posted [p:953770475] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>BlackJackCat posted... </cite> <quote>I never said it was "not consensual" it's just that it's not really consensual either if your motive is "I sleep with this person and eat, or don't and starve." Between two bad situations, people usually pick the one that keeps them alive, but that doesn't mean it's okay. An example I saw before was in the case of a rape where a woman begged her attacker to use a condom. Does that imply consent then suddenly? No, because she's still being forced to do something against her will, mitigating the consequences doesn't make it any better, just like telling yourself that "she has a choice" in a dire situation makes it any less scummy.</quote> that is still a false equivalency and if its legalized and she wasnt forced into it , she chose the profession , you could use that same argument for ppl who strip or do porn or any other type of sex work . But they chose to do that job cuz its more profitable . And that makes the choice to sleep with someone for money consensual cuz they could always choose another job . </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
IronBornCorps 05/10/21 7:59:11 PM #60:	Zeus posted... Which is just completely flat-out wrong. For starters, the feminist crowd that protests prostitution is HEAVILY anti-religion. Beyond that, people have personal views irrespective of any religion or lack thereof. I'm not surprised you cited feminist who aren't actually feminist. <cite>IronBornCorps posted [p:953770505] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>Zeus posted... </cite> <quote>Which is just completely flat-out wrong. For starters, the feminist crowd that protests prostitution is HEAVILY anti-religion. Beyond that, people have personal views irrespective of any religion or lack thereof.</quote> I'm not surprised you cited feminist who aren't actually feminist. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Calamity316 05/10/21 8:03:00 PM #61:	You could even use that logic to say all work is slavery cuz you have to chose to either starve or work so youre actually being forced to work so its slavery ! Lol <cite>Calamity316 posted [p:953770636] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>You could even use that logic to say all work is slavery cuz you have to chose to either starve or work so youre actually being forced to work so its slavery ! Lol </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
IronBornCorps 05/10/21 8:06:35 PM #62:	Also, sex workers turn down plenty of Johns for a variety of reasons. Most of the time if you have the money, you can play, but not always. <cite>IronBornCorps posted [p:953770775] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>Also, sex workers turn down plenty of Johns for a variety of reasons. Most of the time if you have the money, you can play, but not always. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kanatteru 05/10/21 8:07:22 PM #63:	Calamity316 posted... You could even use that logic to say all work is slavery cuz you have to chose to either starve or work so youre actually being forced to work so its slavery ! Lol omg dude you are SO close to a breakthrough right now --- despair-inducing <cite>Kanatteru posted [p:953770805] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>Calamity316 posted... </cite> <quote>You could even use that logic to say all work is slavery cuz you have to chose to either starve or work so youre actually being forced to work so its slavery ! Lol</quote> omg dude you are SO close to a breakthrough right now </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Calamity316 05/10/21 8:09:16 PM #64:	Kanatteru posted... omg dude you are SO close to a breakthrough right now capitalism BAD <cite>Calamity316 posted [p:953770855] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>Kanatteru posted... </cite> <quote>omg dude you are SO close to a breakthrough right now</quote> capitalism BAD </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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wolfy42 05/10/21 9:49:30 PM #66:	Yeah, basically in general, in this country, unless your born rich, or you prostitute yourself out to one man as a wife/sugar baby etc (not saying all wives are prostitutes mind you), you have to work. The choice of what kind of work you do, should be up to you, including sex, if you prefer that to other kinds of work. Consider the pay compared to the time involved and the fact that for some it can be quite pleasurable (and if you don't have a pimp etc, you can probably charge enough to only have sex a few times a week, or certainly per day, and with people of your choosing), and sex work seems like a really great deal compared to..say being a waiter, or working retail etc. Feminists should be up in arms that MEN in positions of power (no women were part of the decision) have "dic"tated that women can't do sex work legally, prevented any protections for those who do, and leave the door wide open for sex trafficers and criminals to take advantage of women because of that. Your body, your choice, shouldn't only be about abortion (btw, it should also be the doctors choice), it should be about how you want to treat your body, including if you wanna sell the use of it, either to do manual labor, sell products (including yourself) etc. Why should "THE MAN" get to state what a woman can do? Prostitution is an easy way to make quite alot of cash, and it wouldn't go anywhere fast. Nobody should be forced into it, but at the same time, nobody should be forced NOT to do it either. --- Tacobot 3000 "Saving the world from not having tacos." Friends don't make their friends die Hanz. Psychopathic friends do. <cite>wolfy42 posted [p:953774012] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>Yeah, basically in general, in this country, unless your born rich, or you prostitute yourself out to one man as a wife/sugar baby etc (not saying all wives are prostitutes mind you), you have to work. The choice of what kind of work you do, should be up to you, including sex, if you prefer that to other kinds of work. Consider the pay compared to the time involved and the fact that for some it can be quite pleasurable (and if you don't have a pimp etc, you can probably charge enough to only have sex a few times a week, or certainly per day, and with people of your choosing), and sex work seems like a really great deal compared to..say being a waiter, or working retail etc. Feminists should be up in arms that MEN in positions of power (no women were part of the decision) have "dic"tated that women can't do sex work legally, prevented any protections for those who do, and leave the door wide open for sex trafficers and criminals to take advantage of women because of that. Your body, your choice, shouldn't only be about abortion (btw, it should also be the doctors choice), it should be about how you want to treat your body, including if you wanna sell the use of it, either to do manual labor, sell products (including yourself) etc. Why should "THE MAN" get to state what a woman can do? Prostitution is an easy way to make quite alot of cash, and it wouldn't go anywhere fast. Nobody should be forced into it, but at the same time, nobody should be forced NOT to do it either. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
wpot 05/10/21 10:10:20 PM #67:	Whee...this sounds fun. What can I add here? Well, first, I agree with everyone who's saying that we shouldn't legislate morality. Religion has it's place, and it's place doesn't involve pushing morality via laws. Laws should be based on what is good for society. Is prostitution good for society? Well, it's a profession that could support people with few skills...that's good. It carries definite public health risks, so oversight/licensing would definitely be necessary to prevent STD outbreaks/etc...not as good, but not so bad to make it illegal. Would it have a significantly bad effect on families? Families are indeed a good thing on the whole: they support both kids, aging spouses/parents/etc, extended family such that society does not have to as much as they would otherwise. Would families break apart if, for example, a man didn't feel a need to stay married to continue his sex life? On the contrary, would they stay together better if the man didn't feel the need to leave his wife because of an unfulfilling sex life? Does sole partner sex build stronger relationships? We could have some good arguments there. Regardless of the specific answers, though, I don't think you'd ever come to the logical conclusion that prostitution needs to be illegal, though. That falls in the "legislated morality" basket of laws. As for capitalism, it's better than the alternatives...but it can't be unbridled. Society needs to have a space to discuss both minimum and "maximum" living conditions and government needs to tax and provide for that appropriately. We're a million miles away from that, unfortunately. --- Pronounced "Whup-pot". Say it. Use it. <cite>wpot posted [p:953774670] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>Whee...this sounds fun. What can I add here? Well, first, I agree with everyone who's saying that we shouldn't legislate morality. Religion has it's place, and it's place doesn't involve pushing morality via laws. Laws should be based on what is good for society. Is prostitution good for society? Well, it's a profession that could support people with few skills...that's good. It carries definite public health risks, so oversight/licensing would definitely be necessary to prevent STD outbreaks/etc...not as good, but not so bad to make it illegal. Would it have a significantly bad effect on families? Families are indeed a good thing on the whole: they support both kids, aging spouses/parents/etc, extended family such that society does not have to as much as they would otherwise. Would families break apart if, for example, a man didn't feel a need to stay married to continue his sex life? On the contrary, would they stay together better if the man didn't feel the need to leave his wife because of an unfulfilling sex life? Does sole partner sex build stronger relationships? We could have some good arguments there. Regardless of the specific answers, though, I don't think you'd ever come to the logical conclusion that prostitution needs to be illegal, though. That falls in the "legislated morality" basket of laws. As for capitalism, it's better than the alternatives...but it can't be unbridled. Society needs to have a space to discuss both minimum and "maximum" living conditions and government needs to tax and provide for that appropriately. We're a million miles away from that, unfortunately. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BlackJackCat 05/10/21 10:59:35 PM #68:	Calamity316 posted... that is still a false equivalency Hey, you're allowed to believe that, but if you're hitting prostitutes and not thinking about how they got there to begin with you are basically shutting your ears and closing your eyes to what is potentially a real problem. Not everyone chooses to do things because they want to, which doesn't make that they chose to do it somehow magically better if you take advantage of that. You're still taking advantage of someone in that kind of situation. End of story. [LFAQs-redacted-quote] Again, like Calamity you're mistaking that I'm arguing against legalizing it. I'm not, I'm saying that it's hard to get people to see legalized prostitution as a remedy to the damage illegal prostitution does. What I am saying is as it stands right now women in prostitution are not all there because they want to be there, and if you take advantage of that, even if they say yes, you're still taking advantage of them. The illusion of choice is not a choice. Now with that in mind, try to convince people on the surface that more prostitution is the answer, when before it has lead to rape, slavery, addiction, and other degradation of life. Yes, legalizing prostitution potentially curbs that, I never have disputed that, I'm just saying it's one of those things that doesn't make itself apparent on the surface to some folks. --- This issues still comes to mind now and then Cake was baking in the oven and mother was making tea for us <cite>BlackJackCat posted [p:953776072] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote><quote>Calamity316 posted... </cite> that is still a false equivalency</quote> Hey, you're allowed to believe that, but if you're hitting prostitutes and not thinking about how they got there to begin with you are basically shutting your ears and closing your eyes to what is potentially a real problem. Not everyone chooses to do things because they want to, which doesn't make that they chose to do it somehow magically better if you take advantage of that. You're still taking advantage of someone in that kind of situation. End of story. <cite>[LFAQs-redacted-quote]</cite> Again, like Calamity you're mistaking that I'm arguing against legalizing it. I'm not, I'm saying that it's hard to get people to see legalized prostitution as a remedy to the damage illegal prostitution does. What I am saying is as it stands right now women in prostitution are not all there because they want to be there, and if you take advantage of that, even if they say yes, you're still taking advantage of them. The illusion of choice is not a choice. Now with that in mind, try to convince people on the surface that more prostitution is the answer, when before it has lead to rape, slavery, addiction, and other degradation of life. Yes, legalizing prostitution potentially curbs that, I never have disputed that, I'm just saying it's one of those things that doesn't make itself apparent on the surface to some folks. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Zeus 05/11/21 5:21:37 PM #69:	wolfy42 posted... I highly doubt the "feminist crowd" would have caused prostitution to become illegal if the religious crowd hadn't already done that, especially if women had control of it themselves and were not being taken advantage of by men so often. Considering the feminist movement didn't exist back when prostitution became illegal, it's a facetious, disingenuous argument (if not an outright deceitful one). wolfy42 posted... Religion IS the underlying cause for most of our crazy views on sex in this country, and it is certainly why prostitution was originally made illegal, and therefore, is directly responsible for it being illegal now. Overlooking that's bullshit, you're essentially -- as Adjl put it -- making a tautology. Saying "oh religion" ignores the fact that religion doesn't exist in a vacuum and, just like government, tends to reflect existing cultural norms. Calamity316 posted... and misogyny is the only reason Which is hilarious because feminists criticize prostitution as being inherently misogynistic. IronBornCorps posted... I'm not surprised you cited feminist who aren't actually feminist. ITP: "If feminists don't believe what I believe, then they're not really feminists." --- (\/)(\/)\|-\| There are precious few at ease / With moral ambiguities / So we act as though they don't exist. <cite>Zeus posted [p:953800513] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>wolfy42 posted... </cite> <quote>I highly doubt the "feminist crowd" would have caused prostitution to become illegal if the religious crowd hadn't already done that, especially if women had control of it themselves and were not being taken advantage of by men so often.</quote> Considering the feminist movement didn't exist back when prostitution became illegal, it's a facetious, disingenuous argument (if not an outright deceitful one). wolfy42 posted... </cite> <quote>Religion IS the underlying cause for most of our crazy views on sex in this country, and it is certainly why prostitution was originally made illegal, and therefore, is directly responsible for it being illegal now.</quote> Overlooking that's bullshit, you're essentially -- as Adjl put it -- making a tautology. Saying "oh religion" ignores the fact that religion doesn't exist in a vacuum and, just like government, tends to reflect existing cultural norms. Calamity316 posted... </cite> <quote>and misogyny is the only reason</quote> Which is hilarious because feminists criticize prostitution as being inherently misogynistic. IronBornCorps posted... </cite> <quote>I'm not surprised you cited feminist who aren't actually feminist.</quote> ITP: "If feminists don't believe what I believe, then they're not really feminists." </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
IronBornCorps 05/11/21 6:00:13 PM #70:	"Feminist" who don't support all women and equality for everyone are in fact not feminist . If you actually engage with some of them, you will likely be treated by a 3 course racist SWERF and TERF. <cite>IronBornCorps posted [p:953801596] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>"Feminist" who don't support all women and equality for everyone are in fact not feminist . If you actually engage with some of them, you will likely be treated by a 3 course racist SWERF and TERF. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kyuubi4269 05/11/21 6:30:07 PM #71:	UK law actually covers this pretty well. Prostitution isn't illegal, but brothels and pimps are. The issue is other people being able to control somebody else's sexual activity, so if it's just agreed between consenting adults without a "work premises" or an "employer", it's JUST an agreement between consenting adults. --- Doctor Foxx posted... The demonizing of soy has a lot to do with xenophobic ideas. <cite>Kyuubi4269 posted [p:953802460] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>UK law actually covers this pretty well. Prostitution isn't illegal, but brothels and pimps are. The issue is other people being able to control somebody else's sexual activity, so if it's just agreed between consenting adults without a "work premises" or an "employer", it's JUST an agreement between consenting adults.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kyuubi4269 05/11/21 6:32:05 PM #72:	IronBornCorps posted... "Feminist" who don't support all women and equality for everyone are in fact not feminist . If you actually engage with some of them, you will likely be treated by a 3 course racist SWERF and TERF. Here's a hint bro, the last letter stands for Feminist. There's plenty of branches of it, and a healty, sex-positive version isn't even the majority of feminists, let alone the only "real" feminists. --- Doctor Foxx posted... The demonizing of soy has a lot to do with xenophobic ideas. <cite>Kyuubi4269 posted [p:953802527] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>IronBornCorps posted...</cite> <quote>"Feminist" who don't support all women and equality for everyone are in fact not feminist . If you actually engage with some of them, you will likely be treated by a 3 course racist SWERF and TERF. </quote> Here's a hint bro, the last letter stands for Feminist. There's plenty of branches of it, and a healty, sex-positive version isn't even the majority of feminists, let alone the only "real" feminists.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Zeus 05/11/21 7:32:34 PM #73:	IronBornCorps posted... "Feminist" who don't support all women and equality for everyone are in fact not feminist cue laugh track Feminism isn't a monolith, no matter how hard you pretend that it is. That's why you see split opinions over whether or not to exclude transwomen in sports. IronBornCorps posted... If you actually engage with some of them, you will likely be treated by a 3 course racist SWERF and TERF. Oh lawdy. --- (\/)(\/)\|-\| There are precious few at ease / With moral ambiguities / So we act as though they don't exist. <cite>Zeus posted [p:953804394] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>IronBornCorps posted... </cite> <quote>"Feminist" who don't support all women and equality for everyone are in fact not feminist</quote> cue laugh track Feminism isn't a monolith, no matter how hard you pretend that it is. That's why you see split opinions over whether or not to exclude transwomen in sports. IronBornCorps posted... </cite> <quote>If you actually engage with some of them, you will likely be treated by a 3 course racist SWERF and TERF.</quote> Oh lawdy. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
aiyobro 05/11/21 7:34:52 PM #74:	it's not forcing someone if they're illegal they have to go out of their way to get services so you're jus acting as a medium until they get somewhere has nothing to do with you paying for sex they jus need money --- "That's a Blu Ray player, not a PS3, that's why it can't read the game"-rswsc0407 <cite>aiyobro posted [p:953804475] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>it's not forcing someone if they're illegal they have to go out of their way to get services so you're jus acting as a medium until they get somewhere has nothing to do with you paying for sex they jus need money </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mead 05/11/21 7:42:21 PM #75:	aiyobro posted... it's not forcing someone if they're illegal they have to go out of their way to get services so you're jus acting as a medium until they get somewhere has nothing to do with you paying for sex they jus need money I do not understand what you are trying to say --- YOU control the numbers of leches. -Sal Vulcano <cite>Mead posted [p:953804708] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>aiyobro posted... </cite> <quote>it's not forcing someone if they're illegal they have to go out of their way to get services so you're jus acting as a medium until they get somewhere has nothing to do with you paying for sex they jus need money</quote> I do not understand what you are trying to say </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BlackJackCat 05/11/21 7:47:28 PM #76:	aiyobro posted... it's not forcing someone if they're illegal they have to go out of their way to get services so you're jus acting as a medium until they get somewhere has nothing to do with you paying for sex they jus need money This is an oversimplification. Say a person in sex work is addicted to drugs, and they need to score or go through withdrawal. While yes, said person could and should go seek help, the system doesn't support these people as is, and there is a huge stigma in our society about addiction. So it's between the pain of withdrawal, and having sex for money to score drugs. Which do you think is going to happen more often than not? Once again, the illusion of choice is not a choice. Stop fucking acting like banging prostitutes in this current situation isn't on some level a scummy thing. You're just kidding yourself and trying to justify potentially taking advantage of people who need real help. --- This issues still comes to mind now and then Cake was baking in the oven and mother was making tea for us <cite>BlackJackCat posted [p:953804850] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>aiyobro posted... </cite> <quote>it's not forcing someone if they're illegal they have to go out of their way to get services so you're jus acting as a medium until they get somewhere has nothing to do with you paying for sex they jus need money</quote> This is an oversimplification. Say a person in sex work is addicted to drugs, and they need to score or go through withdrawal. While yes, said person could and should go seek help, the system doesn't support these people as is, and there is a huge stigma in our society about addiction. So it's between the pain of withdrawal, and having sex for money to score drugs. Which do you think is going to happen more often than not? Once again, the illusion of choice is not a choice. Stop fucking acting like banging prostitutes in this current situation isn't on some level a scummy thing. You're just kidding yourself and trying to justify potentially taking advantage of people who need real help. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
jbomb1234 05/11/21 7:51:29 PM #77:	Because in the 1920's a guy went on a rampage against sin. --- To Punish and Enslave Barricade My PSN name is jbomb1234 <cite>jbomb1234 posted [p:953804956] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>Because in the 1920's a guy went on a rampage against sin. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
wolfy42 05/11/21 7:55:10 PM #78:	Zeus posted... Considering the feminist movement didn't exist back when prostitution became illegal, it's a facetious, disingenuous argument (if not an outright deceitful one). Zeus posted... Overlooking that's bullshit, you're essentially -- as Adjl put it -- making a tautology. Saying "oh religion" ignores the fact that religion doesn't exist in a vacuum and, just like government, tends to reflect existing cultural norms. By "religion" I mean Catholicism/Christianity which has it's fingers all up inside our government. Saying feminism didn't exist is crazy as it's always existed to some degree, it's an idea, and it certainly has been an idea far before it was such a strong movement and women in general had so much power and the ability to exercise it themselves. Religion doesn't exist in a vacuum, but it can be created in a distant past and follow rules that society as a whole no longer agrees with. I think, in today's world, if there was a vote in many states, prostitution would become legal. I'm pretty sure it would for CA, WA, Oregon, probably NY etc. It should be a right to do with your body what you want, as long as you are not harming anyone else. Government should not be involved in that, or protecting marriage (a big reason to make prostitution illegal, and a big reason it might not pass if voted on are wives who don't want husbands easily tempted to cheat etc). Even if a majority wanted prostitution to be illegal, it should be a basic human right, and the government should not be able to tell us what to do with our own bodies, what to spend our money on etc, if it is not causing harm to others (or possibly ourselves). --- Tacobot 3000 "Saving the world from not having tacos." Friends don't make their friends die Hanz. Psychopathic friends do. <cite>wolfy42 posted [p:953805099] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>Zeus posted... </cite> <quote>Considering the feminist movement didn't exist back when prostitution became illegal, it's a facetious, disingenuous argument (if not an outright deceitful one).</quote> Zeus posted... </cite> <quote>Overlooking that's bullshit, you're essentially -- as Adjl put it -- making a tautology. Saying "oh religion" ignores the fact that religion doesn't exist in a vacuum and, just like government, tends to reflect existing cultural norms.</quote> By "religion" I mean Catholicism/Christianity which has it's fingers all up inside our government. Saying feminism didn't exist is crazy as it's always existed to some degree, it's an idea, and it certainly has been an idea far before it was such a strong movement and women in general had so much power and the ability to exercise it themselves. Religion doesn't exist in a vacuum, but it can be created in a distant past and follow rules that society as a whole no longer agrees with. I think, in today's world, if there was a vote in many states, prostitution would become legal. I'm pretty sure it would for CA, WA, Oregon, probably NY etc. It should be a right to do with your body what you want, as long as you are not harming anyone else. Government should not be involved in that, or protecting marriage (a big reason to make prostitution illegal, and a big reason it might not pass if voted on are wives who don't want husbands easily tempted to cheat etc). Even if a majority wanted prostitution to be illegal, it should be a basic human right, and the government should not be able to tell us what to do with our own bodies, what to spend our money on etc, if it is not causing harm to others (or possibly ourselves). </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MondoMan180 05/11/21 8:11:36 PM #79:	BlackJackCat posted... This is an oversimplification. Say a person in sex work is addicted to drugs, and they need to score or go through withdrawal. While yes, said person could and should go seek help, the system doesn't support these people as is, and there is a huge stigma in our society about addiction. So it's between the pain of withdrawal, and having sex for money to score drugs. Which do you think is going to happen more often than not? Once again, the illusion of choice is not a choice. Stop fucking acting like banging prostitutes in this current situation isn't on some level a scummy thing. You're just kidding yourself and trying to justify potentially taking advantage of people who need real help. You're not intelligent. Lots of sex workers are high end call girls who are very empowered and in control of their lives. The types of women addicted to drugs are generally not attractive and therefore not in high demand, they would not be bothered. If its legal it can be policed and regulated, so you should actually be IN favor <cite>MondoMan180 posted [p:953805639] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>BlackJackCat posted... </cite> <quote>This is an oversimplification. Say a person in sex work is addicted to drugs, and they need to score or go through withdrawal. While yes, said person could and should go seek help, the system doesn't support these people as is, and there is a huge stigma in our society about addiction. So it's between the pain of withdrawal, and having sex for money to score drugs. Which do you think is going to happen more often than not? Once again, the illusion of choice is not a choice. Stop fucking acting like banging prostitutes in this current situation isn't on some level a scummy thing. You're just kidding yourself and trying to justify potentially taking advantage of people who need real help.</quote> You're not intelligent. Lots of sex workers are high end call girls who are very empowered and in control of their lives. The types of women addicted to drugs are generally not attractive and therefore not in high demand, they would not be bothered. If its legal it can be policed and regulated, so you should actually be IN favor </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
wolfy42 05/11/21 8:14:23 PM #80:	MondoMan180 posted... You're not intelligent. Lots of sex workers are high end call girls who are very empowered and in control of their lives. The types of women addicted to drugs are generally not attractive and therefore not in high demand, they would not be bothered. If its legal it can be policed and regulated, so you should actually be IN favor 99% of the men on this board could have a call girl out to their place in under 4 hours if they wanted with no risk and spend less than $300 probably. It's "illegal" for the poor, and to get caught on the streets etc. It's been "legal" if you have money the whole time. --- Tacobot 3000 "Saving the world from not having tacos." Friends don't make their friends die Hanz. Psychopathic friends do. <cite>wolfy42 posted [p:953805713] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>MondoMan180 posted... </cite> <quote>You're not intelligent. Lots of sex workers are high end call girls who are very empowered and in control of their lives. The types of women addicted to drugs are generally not attractive and therefore not in high demand, they would not be bothered. If its legal it can be policed and regulated, so you should actually be IN favor</quote> 99% of the men on this board could have a call girl out to their place in under 4 hours if they wanted with no risk and spend less than $300 probably. It's "illegal" for the poor, and to get caught on the streets etc. It's been "legal" if you have money the whole time. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BlackJackCat 05/11/21 8:15:50 PM #81:	MondoMan180 posted... You're not intelligent. Lots of sex workers are high end call girls who are very empowered and in control of their lives. The types of women addicted to drugs are generally not attractive and therefore not in high demand, they would not be bothered. If its legal it can be policed and regulated, so you should actually be IN favor Once again, I'm not arguing against this. I am sorry your reading comprehension is lacking. Also you're going to tell me the average individual can frequent "high end call girls?" People will pay for sex with all sorts of strange, don't pretend your standards are everyone else's. --- This issues still comes to mind now and then Cake was baking in the oven and mother was making tea for us <cite>BlackJackCat posted [p:953805759] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>MondoMan180 posted... </cite> <quote>You're not intelligent. Lots of sex workers are high end call girls who are very empowered and in control of their lives. The types of women addicted to drugs are generally not attractive and therefore not in high demand, they would not be bothered. If its legal it can be policed and regulated, so you should actually be IN favor</quote> Once again, I'm not arguing against this. I am sorry your reading comprehension is lacking. Also you're going to tell me the average individual can frequent "high end call girls?" People will pay for sex with all sorts of strange, don't pretend your standards are everyone else's. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kyuubi4269 05/11/21 8:40:52 PM #82:	BlackJackCat posted... So it's between the pain of withdrawal, and having sex for money to score drugs. Which do you think is going to happen more often than not? Once again, the illusion of choice is not a choice. Stop fucking acting like banging prostitutes in this current situation isn't on some level a scummy thing. You're just kidding yourself and trying to justify potentially taking advantage of people who need real help. You think you're helping by giving them less options? You think you're helping them by making them have to rob someone at knifepoint instead? There's still no support for drug addicts, they still don't have a good option in their life, but I would feel better getting fucked to pay for things I want than just robbing people. What you're doing is an oversimplification, you just feel justified since it supports your morals. --- Doctor Foxx posted... The demonizing of soy has a lot to do with xenophobic ideas. <cite>Kyuubi4269 posted [p:953806574] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>BlackJackCat posted...</cite> <quote>So it's between the pain of withdrawal, and having sex for money to score drugs. Which do you think is going to happen more often than not? Once again, the illusion of choice is not a choice. Stop fucking acting like banging prostitutes in this current situation isn't on some level a scummy thing. You're just kidding yourself and trying to justify potentially taking advantage of people who need real help.</quote> You think you're helping by giving them less options? You think you're helping them by making them have to rob someone at knifepoint instead? There's still no support for drug addicts, they still don't have a good option in their life, but I would feel better getting fucked to pay for things I want than just robbing people. What you're doing is an oversimplification, you just feel justified since it supports your morals.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BlackJackCat 05/11/21 8:50:42 PM #83:	Kyuubi4269 posted... You think you're helping by giving them less options? You think you're helping them by making them have to rob someone at knifepoint instead? There's still no support for drug addicts, they still don't have a good option in their life, but I would feel better getting fucked to pay for things I want than just robbing people. What you're doing is an oversimplification, you just feel justified since it supports your morals. I never said they shouldn't have the option. Once again you people are putting words in my mouth that I never said. I'm saying you're not less scummy for having sex with a person in desperation for money. End of story. People will do what they will need to do to survive, and I'm not begrudging that, all I said is that consenting to do something you don't want to do is still not consent. How is that a hard concept to grasp? --- This issues still comes to mind now and then Cake was baking in the oven and mother was making tea for us <cite>BlackJackCat posted [p:953806856] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>Kyuubi4269 posted... </cite> <quote>You think you're helping by giving them less options? You think you're helping them by making them have to rob someone at knifepoint instead? There's still no support for drug addicts, they still don't have a good option in their life, but I would feel better getting fucked to pay for things I want than just robbing people. What you're doing is an oversimplification, you just feel justified since it supports your morals.</quote> I never said they shouldn't have the option. Once again you people are putting words in my mouth that I never said. I'm saying you're not less scummy for having sex with a person in desperation for money. End of story. People will do what they will need to do to survive, and I'm not begrudging that, all I said is that consenting to do something you don't want to do is still not consent. How is that a hard concept to grasp? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
wolfy42 05/11/21 8:59:58 PM #84:	BlackJackCat posted... I never said they shouldn't have the option. Once again you people are putting words in my mouth that I never said. I'm saying you're not less scummy for having sex with a person in desperation for money. End of story. People will do what they will need to do to survive, and I'm not begrudging that, all I said is that consenting to do something you don't want to do is still not consent. How is that a hard concept to grasp? Many people have jobs that they don't want to do, or portions of it that they hate etc. Child care workers may love working with kids/babies, but hate changing diapers etc. You can give consent for things you don't want to do, wanting to do something has nothing at all to do with consent. If someone WANTS to make money and they can do it having sex, but they wouldn't normally have sex with that person if money was involved, they are still giving consent to have sex with them for money, and there is nothing wrong with that. I personally try for jobs I WANT to do, and that pay me money. I would rather make less money making money doing something I enjoy or want to do, than more money doing something I don't like. In a perfect world sex workers would ENJOY sex, and want to do it, but also get money for it as well so they can support themselves. If men were offered the option to have sex for more (with the gender they prefer) many would jump on that. There are 100% for sure women who enjoy sex just as much as men, and have a high sex drive as well. Nothing wrong with them getting paid for something they love to do anyway. --- Tacobot 3000 "Saving the world from not having tacos." Friends don't make their friends die Hanz. Psychopathic friends do. <cite>wolfy42 posted [p:953807142] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>BlackJackCat posted... </cite> <quote>I never said they shouldn't have the option. Once again you people are putting words in my mouth that I never said. I'm saying you're not less scummy for having sex with a person in desperation for money. End of story. People will do what they will need to do to survive, and I'm not begrudging that, all I said is that consenting to do something you don't want to do is still not consent. How is that a hard concept to grasp?</quote> Many people have jobs that they don't want to do, or portions of it that they hate etc. Child care workers may love working with kids/babies, but hate changing diapers etc. You can give consent for things you don't want to do, wanting to do something has nothing at all to do with consent. If someone WANTS to make money and they can do it having sex, but they wouldn't normally have sex with that person if money was involved, they are still giving consent to have sex with them for money, and there is nothing wrong with that. I personally try for jobs I WANT to do, and that pay me money. I would rather make less money making money doing something I enjoy or want to do, than more money doing something I don't like. In a perfect world sex workers would ENJOY sex, and want to do it, but also get money for it as well so they can support themselves. If men were offered the option to have sex for more (with the gender they prefer) many would jump on that. There are 100% for sure women who enjoy sex just as much as men, and have a high sex drive as well. Nothing wrong with them getting paid for something they love to do anyway. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BlackJackCat 05/11/21 9:05:47 PM #85:	wolfy42 posted... In a perfect world sex workers would ENJOY sex, and want to do it, but also get money for it as well so they can support themselves. Right, but that's the whole point. Yes you consent to doing shitty jobs because of capitalism, but I'm talking about consent in the carnal sense, which is not the same thing, and not just because of my morals, but by our society. Sex and the unwanted violation of a persons body isn't treated the same way. In a perfect world everyone would do what they want because they want to, and I don't doubt people do do sex work because they want to. Again, nothing I'm disputing. But the sex industry has its scumbags, and these people who delude themselves on the client end of it, be it porn or prostitution, if someone felt forced or coerced into doing something they normally wouldn't do with their body because they felt compelled to (continued employment, paying the rent, feeding their kids, etc.) that's still not really a conscious choice made 100% on their own, and if someone takes advantage of that, no matter how you try to dress it up, is still taking advantage of someones body against their otherwise wishes. Again, this is not a hard concept to follow. Sex workers should do their job because they want to, but right not all of them do. That's all I have ever said. If people take issue with the feeling that they are teetering close to giving people unwanted sex, then they should change the system. --- This issues still comes to mind now and then Cake was baking in the oven and mother was making tea for us <cite>BlackJackCat posted [p:953807337] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>wolfy42 posted... </cite> <quote>In a perfect world sex workers would ENJOY sex, and want to do it, but also get money for it as well so they can support themselves.</quote> Right, but that's the whole point. Yes you consent to doing shitty jobs because of capitalism, but I'm talking about consent in the carnal sense, which is not the same thing, and not just because of my morals, but by our society. Sex and the unwanted violation of a persons body isn't treated the same way. In a perfect world everyone would do what they want because they want to, and I don't doubt people do do sex work because they want to. Again, nothing I'm disputing. But the sex industry has its scumbags, and these people who delude themselves on the client end of it, be it porn or prostitution, if someone felt forced or coerced into doing something they normally wouldn't do with their body because they felt compelled to (continued employment, paying the rent, feeding their kids, etc.) that's still not really a conscious choice made 100% on their own, and if someone takes advantage of that, no matter how you try to dress it up, is still taking advantage of someones body against their otherwise wishes. Again, this is not a hard concept to follow. Sex workers should do their job because they want to, but right not all of them do. That's all I have ever said. If people take issue with the feeling that they are teetering close to giving people unwanted sex, then they should change the system. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
wolfy42 05/11/21 9:13:06 PM #86:	BlackJackCat posted... Right, but that's the whole point. Yes you consent to doing shitty jobs because of capitalism, but I'm talking about consent in the carnal sense, which is not the same thing, and not just because of my morals, but by our society. Sex and the unwanted violation of a persons body isn't treated the same way. In a perfect world everyone would do what they want because they want to, and I don't doubt people do do sex work because they want to. Again, nothing I'm disputing. But the sex industry has its scumbags, and these people who delude themselves on the client end of it, be it porn or prostitution, if someone felt forced or coerced into doing something they normally wouldn't do with their body because they felt compelled to (continued employment, paying the rent, feeding their kids, etc.) that's still not really a conscious choice made 100% on their own, and if someone takes advantage of that, no matter how you try to dress it up, is still taking advantage of someones body against their otherwise wishes. Again, this is not a hard concept to follow. Sex workers should do their job because they want to, but right not all of them do. That's all I have ever said. If people take issue with the feeling that they are teetering close to giving people unwanted sex, then they should change the system. I 100% agree that right now not all of them do, in fact that is at least partially (and i think primarily) because sex work is considered illegal so pimps/criminals etc force women into the sex trade, get them addicted to drugs etc. If it was legal, monitored, taxed etc, I think it would be better for everyone, especially the people in the actual sex trade. I do believe that would lead to more people doing such jobs because they want to, and less because they have to, or are forced into doing it. I'm pretty open about sex etc, but I don't believe in forcing anyone, even through financial means, but I do think if a person WANTS to have sex for money, they should be able to do so. I think it would also be good for society, possible cause less freaking insane young idiots to go around shooting people etc. Anyway I certainly wasn't attacking your comments, I get where your coming from, and pretty much agree with it. I do think sex work should be legal for everyone, not just the rich/wealthy, and most importantly I think sex workers should be protected, given methods to get out of the trade if they want, ways to report pimps etc (just like any other abuser) and help getting off drugs etc they were addicted to (all paid for with all the new taxes we get from prostitutes). Funnily enough if they had a pimp etc, even paying taxes they would probably make significantly more than before lol....and they would have the same protections as every other citizen. --- Tacobot 3000 "Saving the world from not having tacos." Friends don't make their friends die Hanz. Psychopathic friends do. <cite>wolfy42 posted [p:953807549] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>BlackJackCat posted... </cite> <quote>Right, but that's the whole point. Yes you consent to doing shitty jobs because of capitalism, but I'm talking about consent in the carnal sense, which is not the same thing, and not just because of my morals, but by our society. Sex and the unwanted violation of a persons body isn't treated the same way. In a perfect world everyone would do what they want because they want to, and I don't doubt people do do sex work because they want to. Again, nothing I'm disputing. But the sex industry has its scumbags, and these people who delude themselves on the client end of it, be it porn or prostitution, if someone felt forced or coerced into doing something they normally wouldn't do with their body because they felt compelled to (continued employment, paying the rent, feeding their kids, etc.) that's still not really a conscious choice made 100% on their own, and if someone takes advantage of that, no matter how you try to dress it up, is still taking advantage of someones body against their otherwise wishes. Again, this is not a hard concept to follow. Sex workers should do their job because they want to, but right not all of them do. That's all I have ever said. If people take issue with the feeling that they are teetering close to giving people unwanted sex, then they should change the system.</quote> I 100% agree that right now not all of them do, in fact that is at least partially (and i think primarily) because sex work is considered illegal so pimps/criminals etc force women into the sex trade, get them addicted to drugs etc. If it was legal, monitored, taxed etc, I think it would be better for everyone, especially the people in the actual sex trade. I do believe that would lead to more people doing such jobs because they want to, and less because they have to, or are forced into doing it. I'm pretty open about sex etc, but I don't believe in forcing anyone, even through financial means, but I do think if a person WANTS to have sex for money, they should be able to do so. I think it would also be good for society, possible cause less freaking insane young idiots to go around shooting people etc. Anyway I certainly wasn't attacking your comments, I get where your coming from, and pretty much agree with it. I do think sex work should be legal for everyone, not just the rich/wealthy, and most importantly I think sex workers should be protected, given methods to get out of the trade if they want, ways to report pimps etc (just like any other abuser) and help getting off drugs etc they were addicted to (all paid for with all the new taxes we get from prostitutes). Funnily enough if they had a pimp etc, even paying taxes they would probably make significantly more than before lol....and they would have the same protections as every other citizen. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
shadowsword87 05/11/21 9:16:11 PM #87:	MondoMan180 posted... You're not intelligent There's something magical about someone calling someone else stupid, while also not knowing how the world works. <cite>shadowsword87 posted [p:953807648] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>MondoMan180 posted... </cite> <quote>You're not intelligent</quote> There's something magical about someone calling someone else stupid, while also not knowing how the world works. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BlackJackCat 05/11/21 9:22:48 PM #88:	wolfy42 posted... I 100% agree that right now not all of them do, in fact that is at least partially (and i think primarily) because sex work is considered illegal so pimps/criminals etc force women into the sex trade, get them addicted to drugs etc. If it was legal, monitored, taxed etc, I think it would be better for everyone, especially the people in the actual sex trade. I do believe that would lead to more people doing such jobs because they want to, and less because they have to, or are forced into doing it. I'm pretty open about sex etc, but I don't believe in forcing anyone, even through financial means, but I do think if a person WANTS to have sex for money, they should be able to do so. I think it would also be good for society, possible cause less freaking insane young idiots to go around shooting people etc. Anyway I certainly wasn't attacking your comments, I get where your coming from, and pretty much agree with it. I do think sex work should be legal for everyone, not just the rich/wealthy, and most importantly I think sex workers should be protected, given methods to get out of the trade if they want, ways to report pimps etc (just like any other abuser) and help getting off drugs etc they were addicted to (all paid for with all the new taxes we get from prostitutes). Funnily enough if they had a pimp etc, even paying taxes they would probably make significantly more than before lol....and they would have the same protections as every other citizen. I won't make predictions about what would happen if it were legalized. I'm sure it would have a positive effect, but like a lot of things in life people do find ways to game the system and cause the same if not worse problems than before. I'm in favor of it because as it stands it's pretty obvious that what we're doing now doesn't work. --- This issues still comes to mind now and then Cake was baking in the oven and mother was making tea for us <cite>BlackJackCat posted [p:953807878] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>wolfy42 posted... </cite> <quote>I 100% agree that right now not all of them do, in fact that is at least partially (and i think primarily) because sex work is considered illegal so pimps/criminals etc force women into the sex trade, get them addicted to drugs etc. If it was legal, monitored, taxed etc, I think it would be better for everyone, especially the people in the actual sex trade. I do believe that would lead to more people doing such jobs because they want to, and less because they have to, or are forced into doing it. I'm pretty open about sex etc, but I don't believe in forcing anyone, even through financial means, but I do think if a person WANTS to have sex for money, they should be able to do so. I think it would also be good for society, possible cause less freaking insane young idiots to go around shooting people etc. Anyway I certainly wasn't attacking your comments, I get where your coming from, and pretty much agree with it. I do think sex work should be legal for everyone, not just the rich/wealthy, and most importantly I think sex workers should be protected, given methods to get out of the trade if they want, ways to report pimps etc (just like any other abuser) and help getting off drugs etc they were addicted to (all paid for with all the new taxes we get from prostitutes). Funnily enough if they had a pimp etc, even paying taxes they would probably make significantly more than before lol....and they would have the same protections as every other citizen.</quote> I won't make predictions about what would happen if it were legalized. I'm sure it would have a positive effect, but like a lot of things in life people do find ways to game the system and cause the same if not worse problems than before. I'm in favor of it because as it stands it's pretty obvious that what we're doing now doesn't work. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MondoMan180 05/11/21 9:29:36 PM #89:	shadowsword87 posted... There's something magical about someone calling someone else stupid, while also not knowing how the world works. <cite>MondoMan180 posted [p:953808081] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>shadowsword87 posted... </cite> <quote>There's something magical about someone calling someone else stupid, while also not knowing how the world works.</quote> </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
shadowsword87 05/11/21 9:32:26 PM #90:	MondoMan180 posted... You remind me of the old internet, friend. <cite>shadowsword87 posted [p:953808176] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>MondoMan180 posted... </cite> <quote></quote> You remind me of the old internet, friend. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ZBug_ 05/11/21 9:51:00 PM #91:	Nichtcrawler X posted... When it is properly arranged and taxed and protected like every other job it is allowed. Then again, I do not live in the US. It should be this in the US. Its only illegal because its bad to be promiscuous and worse to get paid for it. Probably one of those laws too heavily influenced by the Bible. --- This party's gettin' crazy NNID: LLBCrook - PSN/Steam: ZBugCrook <cite>ZBug_ posted [p:953808802] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>Nichtcrawler X posted... </cite> <quote>When it is properly arranged and taxed and protected like every other job it is allowed. Then again, I do not live in the US.</quote>It should be this in the US. Its only illegal because its bad to be promiscuous and worse to get paid for it. Probably one of those laws too heavily influenced by the Bible. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BlackJackCat 05/11/21 9:58:15 PM #92:	ZBug_ posted... It should be this in the US. Its only illegal because its bad to be promiscuous and worse to get paid for it. Probably one of those laws too heavily influenced by the Bible. I don't totally subscribe to the "because religion!" argument that prostitution is illegal, though it's without a doubt probably a factor. In many places around the country you can still find old laws against certain kinds of sex that isn't missionary, which is undoubtedly due to a skewed morality formed from the bible. Kind of like how prohibition was aimed at one thing with the passive hope of cleaning up other aspects of life, people way back probably saw legal prostitution as attracting unsavory elements. Even if they say "not in my Christian neighborhoods!" it was probably on the speculation of it being an inherent negative to the environment. --- This issues still comes to mind now and then Cake was baking in the oven and mother was making tea for us <cite>BlackJackCat posted [p:953809018] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>ZBug_ posted... </cite> <quote>It should be this in the US. Its only illegal because its bad to be promiscuous and worse to get paid for it. Probably one of those laws too heavily influenced by the Bible.</quote> I don't totally subscribe to the "because religion!" argument that prostitution is illegal, though it's without a doubt probably a factor. In many places around the country you can still find old laws against certain kinds of sex that isn't missionary, which is undoubtedly due to a skewed morality formed from the bible. Kind of like how prohibition was aimed at one thing with the passive hope of cleaning up other aspects of life, people way back probably saw legal prostitution as attracting unsavory elements. Even if they say "not in my Christian neighborhoods!" it was probably on the speculation of it being an inherent negative to the environment. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
aiyobro 05/11/21 11:17:44 PM #93:	wolfy42 posted... By "religion" I mean Catholicism/Christianity which has it's fingers all up inside our government. Saying feminism didn't exist is crazy as it's always existed to some degree, it's an idea, and it certainly has been an idea far before it was such a strong movement and women in general had so much power and the ability to exercise it themselves. Religion doesn't exist in a vacuum, but it can be created in a distant past and follow rules that society as a whole no longer agrees with. I think, in today's world, if there was a vote in many states, prostitution would become legal. I'm pretty sure it would for CA, WA, Oregon, probably NY etc. It should be a right to do with your body what you want, as long as you are not harming anyone else. Government should not be involved in that, or protecting marriage (a big reason to make prostitution illegal, and a big reason it might not pass if voted on are wives who don't want husbands easily tempted to cheat etc). Even if a majority wanted prostitution to be illegal, it should be a basic human right, and the government should not be able to tell us what to do with our own bodies, what to spend our money on etc, if it is not causing harm to others (or possibly ourselves). funny how you redefine illegal immigration as sex trafficking --- "That's a Blu Ray player, not a PS3, that's why it can't read the game"-rswsc0407 <cite>aiyobro posted [p:953811281] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>wolfy42 posted... </cite> <quote>By "religion" I mean Catholicism/Christianity which has it's fingers all up inside our government. Saying feminism didn't exist is crazy as it's always existed to some degree, it's an idea, and it certainly has been an idea far before it was such a strong movement and women in general had so much power and the ability to exercise it themselves. Religion doesn't exist in a vacuum, but it can be created in a distant past and follow rules that society as a whole no longer agrees with. I think, in today's world, if there was a vote in many states, prostitution would become legal. I'm pretty sure it would for CA, WA, Oregon, probably NY etc. It should be a right to do with your body what you want, as long as you are not harming anyone else. Government should not be involved in that, or protecting marriage (a big reason to make prostitution illegal, and a big reason it might not pass if voted on are wives who don't want husbands easily tempted to cheat etc). Even if a majority wanted prostitution to be illegal, it should be a basic human right, and the government should not be able to tell us what to do with our own bodies, what to spend our money on etc, if it is not causing harm to others (or possibly ourselves).</quote> funny how you redefine illegal immigration as sex trafficking </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MondoMan180 05/11/21 11:19:55 PM #94:	aiyobro posted... funny how you redefine illegal immigration as sex trafficking Where did he mention immigration?? --- Just call me M80 Matey ;) <cite>MondoMan180 posted [p:953811341] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>aiyobro posted... </cite> <quote>funny how you redefine illegal immigration as sex trafficking</quote> Where did he mention immigration?? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
wolfy42 05/11/21 11:47:27 PM #95:	aiyobro posted... funny how you redefine illegal immigration as sex trafficking Dude, I didn't in any way. Sex trafficking is abhorrent, and yes in some cases illegal immigrants are forced into the sex trade, but sex traffickers often abduct young girls from around the world (including in the US) and transfer them against their will to other countries where they can control them and force them to have sex with others against their will. It''s horrible, and one of the primary reasons I'm pro making prostitution legal. Our current system offers very little protection to those girls that are brought to this country, and even opens up doors/avenues for criminals to abduct girls from here and transfer them to other countries (since there is so much traffic going this way already, and since there is already an underground because sex work is illegal etc). If we shine a light on the whole thing, make it all on the up and up, tax it, use those taxes to protect the workers, get them off drugs, arrest anyone who tries to abuse them/pimp them out etc, we would only be helping people. Every year girls (primarily, though boys as well) all over the world are abducted and forced into sex work. We can't fix the world, but we COULD help prevent that from happening here, identify it when it does right away and stop/save them asap. Sex trafficers are evil and should be tortured for awhile before being killed (and i'm not even pro-torture). Illegal immigration is certainly a problem, and personally I believe we should close our borders and only allow those who have jobs and apply for a visa etc (like many other countries) to enter, but I don't consider it nearly as bad as abducting people against their will, yanking them often from loving families etc, and forcing them into the sex trade. --- Tacobot 3000 "Saving the world from not having tacos." Friends don't make their friends die Hanz. Psychopathic friends do. <cite>wolfy42 posted [p:953812041] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>aiyobro posted... </cite> <quote>funny how you redefine illegal immigration as sex trafficking</quote> Dude, I didn't in any way. Sex trafficking is abhorrent, and yes in some cases illegal immigrants are forced into the sex trade, but sex traffickers often abduct young girls from around the world (including in the US) and transfer them against their will to other countries where they can control them and force them to have sex with others against their will. It''s horrible, and one of the primary reasons I'm pro making prostitution legal. Our current system offers very little protection to those girls that are brought to this country, and even opens up doors/avenues for criminals to abduct girls from here and transfer them to other countries (since there is so much traffic going this way already, and since there is already an underground because sex work is illegal etc). If we shine a light on the whole thing, make it all on the up and up, tax it, use those taxes to protect the workers, get them off drugs, arrest anyone who tries to abuse them/pimp them out etc, we would only be helping people. Every year girls (primarily, though boys as well) all over the world are abducted and forced into sex work. We can't fix the world, but we COULD help prevent that from happening here, identify it when it does right away and stop/save them asap. Sex trafficers are evil and should be tortured for awhile before being killed (and i'm not even pro-torture). Illegal immigration is certainly a problem, and personally I believe we should close our borders and only allow those who have jobs and apply for a visa etc (like many other countries) to enter, but I don't consider it nearly as bad as abducting people against their will, yanking them often from loving families etc, and forcing them into the sex trade. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
aiyobro 05/12/21 12:15:45 AM #96:	Dude, I didn't in any way. Sex trafficking is abhorrent, and yes in some cases illegal immigrants are forced into the sex trade, but sex traffickers often abduct young girls from around the world (including in the US) and transfer them against their will to other countries where they can control them and force them to have sex with others against their will. yeah all those cat fishing women so desperately afraid --- "That's a Blu Ray player, not a PS3, that's why it can't read the game"-rswsc0407 <cite>aiyobro posted [p:953812685] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote><quote>Dude, I didn't in any way. Sex trafficking is abhorrent, and yes in some cases illegal immigrants are forced into the sex trade, but sex traffickers often abduct young girls from around the world (including in the US) and transfer them against their will to other countries where they can control them and force them to have sex with others against their will.</quote> yeah all those cat fishing women so desperately afraid </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Metalsonic66 05/12/21 10:44:05 AM #97:	aiyobro posted... yeah all those cat fishing women so desperately afraid --- PSN/Steam ID: Metalsonic_69 Big bombs go kabang. <cite>Metalsonic66 posted [p:953822837] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote>aiyobro posted... </cite> <quote>yeah all those cat fishing women so desperately afraid</quote> </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
aiyobro 05/12/21 11:00:48 AM #98:	A 19-YEAR-OLD US model claims to have sold her virginity to an Abu Dhabi-based businessman for nearly $3.9 million on a controversial auction website. Cinderella Escorts, a Germany-based website which encourages young women to auction their virginity to wealthy older men, says the winning bid of 2.5 million euro ($3.87 million) beat an offer of $US2.4 million ($3.16 million) from a Hollywood actor and $US1.8 million ($2.37 million) from a Russian politician. The woman, known as Giselle, said in a statement released by the website that it was a dream come true. Every woman has to decide on her own if it is worth to give her virginity for free to a boyfriend who maybe later on will break up with her, rather than selling it, she said. But I made my decision and now I can study wherever I want, buy a new house and travel around the world. It gives me a lot of opportunities. Giselle described the trend of women selling their virginity as a form of emancipation, saying she was shocked at people who were against it. In other words, these people want to tell you what to do with your body as a woman, but they accuse somebody who is selling it of being against emancipation, she said. This is absurd. The fact that women can do what they want with their bodies and have the courage to live their sexuality free against the critics sets a sign for emancipation. Giselle said if she wanted to spend my first time with someone who is not my first love, thats my decision, and that she was happy to be part of this new trend, part of the womens movement of recent history. A womens movement that advocates freedom and self-determination of sexuality and finally breaks the taboo about a womans virginity, she said. In retrospect, how many would probably give up their first time if they could have 2.5 million euros instead? Now everything has to be organised. The hotel for my meeting with the buyer in Germany is booked. Cinderella Escorts accompanies me to the meeting and stays close by as a security in case of problems. I have the opportunity to cancel the meeting at any time, but I am quite confident. I was able to talk to the buyer before and we are very [sympathetic]. In a statement, Cinderella Escorts said it was glad that we were able to help Giselle because we understood her dream and her motives. On our website you will find a video where girls from all over the world talk about the reasons to sell their virginity, the statement said. Girls from Australia, Europe, Africa, North and South America. From Arab countries and Asian. This shows us that the desire to auction a virginity is no exception. And on the other hand, the high bidding for Giselles auction shows us how high the demand for virgins is. Business people from all over the world have been bidding. Cinderella Escorts has only allowed about 40 virgins on our website so far, because of a long process. We make sure that the girls do not have psychological problems, are grown-up and fully aware of their desires. For this, girls have to see a psychologist who will assure us of these points. The girls all have sex with condoms. We organise the hotel, stay close to the [hotel] as a contact person in case of problems and the girl can cancel the meeting at any time. There are some girls who are looking for a buyer for their virginity on their own. It is safer to run this on our platform. Men who want to have sex with the escorts on the site have put down a 40 per cent deposit by transferring the funds to Cinderella Escorts bank account prior to a meeting. The remaining money is paid in cash to the women at the point of sale of sex, with Cinderella Escorts taking a 20 per cent cut. The websites founder was recently named in local media as 26-year-old Jan Zakobielski, who still lives in his mothers basement. No one makes these young women do anything they dont want to do, he said earlier this year. They have their own minds and their own opinions on sexuality. We also reject girls where we feel that someone else is behind it and they do not want to sell their virginity on their own. --- "That's a Blu Ray player, not a PS3, that's why it can't read the game"-rswsc0407 <cite>aiyobro posted [p:953823352] in Why is pro... [t:79451546]...</cite> <quote><quote>A 19-YEAR-OLD US model claims to have sold her virginity to an Abu Dhabi-based businessman for nearly $3.9 million on a controversial auction website. Cinderella Escorts, a Germany-based website which encourages young women to auction their virginity to wealthy older men, says the winning bid of 2.5 million euro ($3.87 million) beat an offer of $US2.4 million ($3.16 million) from a Hollywood actor and $US1.8 million ($2.37 million) from a Russian politician. The woman, known as Giselle, said in a statement released by the website that it was a dream come true. Every woman has to decide on her own if it is worth to give her virginity for free to a boyfriend who maybe later on will break up with her, rather than selling it, she said. But I made my decision and now I can study wherever I want, buy a new house and travel around the world. It gives me a lot of opportunities. Giselle described the trend of women selling their virginity as a form of emancipation, saying she was shocked at people who were against it. In other words, these people want to tell you what to do with your body as a woman, but they accuse somebody who is selling it of being against emancipation, she said. This is absurd. The fact that women can do what they want with their bodies and have the courage to live their sexuality free against the critics sets a sign for emancipation. Giselle said if she wanted to spend my first time with someone who is not my first love, thats my decision, and that she was happy to be part of this new trend, part of the womens movement of recent history. A womens movement that advocates freedom and self-determination of sexuality and finally breaks the taboo about a womans virginity, she said. In retrospect, how many would probably give up their first time if they could have 2.5 million euros instead? Now everything has to be organised. The hotel for my meeting with the buyer in Germany is booked. Cinderella Escorts accompanies me to the meeting and stays close by as a security in case of problems. I have the opportunity to cancel the meeting at any time, but I am quite confident. I was able to talk to the buyer before and we are very [sympathetic]. In a statement, Cinderella Escorts said it was glad that we were able to help Giselle because we understood her dream and her motives. On our website you will find a video where girls from all over the world talk about the reasons to sell their virginity, the statement said. Girls from Australia, Europe, Africa, North and South America. From Arab countries and Asian. This shows us that the desire to auction a virginity is no exception. And on the other hand, the high bidding for Giselles auction shows us how high the demand for virgins is. Business people from all over the world have been bidding. Cinderella Escorts has only allowed about 40 virgins on our website so far, because of a long process. We make sure that the girls do not have psychological problems, are grown-up and fully aware of their desires. For this, girls have to see a psychologist who will assure us of these points. The girls all have sex with condoms. We organise the hotel, stay close to the [hotel] as a contact person in case of problems and the girl can cancel the meeting at any time. There are some girls who are looking for a buyer for their virginity on their own. It is safer to run this on our platform. Men who want to have sex with the escorts on the site have put down a 40 per cent deposit by transferring the funds to Cinderella Escorts bank account prior to a meeting. The remaining money is paid in cash to the women at the point of sale of sex, with Cinderella Escorts taking a 20 per cent cut. The websites founder was recently named in local media as 26-year-old Jan Zakobielski, who still lives in his mothers basement. No one makes these young women do anything they dont want to do, he said earlier this year. They have their own minds and their own opinions on sexuality. We also reject girls where we feel that someone else is behind it and they do not want to sell their virginity on their own.</quote> </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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