Current Events > Caitlyn Jenner Backs Bans on Trans Girls Competing in Female Sports

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Conflict posted...

That's literally not what that means.

There is a transgender person that disagrees with you further in the topic. Feel free to tell them how you feel.
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I love it when "allies" get pissy and try to claim that they support the trans community more than trans people

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Conflict posted...

There's also multiple transgender people in this topic telling you that's grossly inaccurate. So don't even pull that card.

You don't decide what your gender is. Do you think you personally decided that you were male?

So...no matter what, I'm wrong in someone's eyes?

You're nitpicking regardless, I explained my sentiment further in the topic.
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Slayer_22 posted...

There is a transgender person that disagrees with you further in the topic. Feel free to tell them how you feel.

Trans people can be wrong about what words mean. Choices are voluntary. People sometimes use "choose" in place of "realize" or something similar when discussing gender identity or sexual orientation. That doesn't change the meaning of the word, it just means the word was used wrong.

FlameTurtle posted...

I love it when "allies" get pissy and try to claim that they support the trans community more than trans people

It's absolutely incredible how much of a hard on you have for completely missing the point of what I'm saying. Look, same thing you did!

I was saying that being keyboard warriors helps no one, so let's all(myself included) donate to the organization. Though, I'm gonna be doing it for their benefit.

Lol.
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Conflict posted...

Btw saying you're gonna donate to a transgender cause solely because people are calling you out on a message board is literally the exact opposite of genuine support. You wouldn't do it if this discussion wasn't happening, so I don't know why on earth you think that's supposed to make you look good lol

It's more to wash the taste of the argument out of my mouth, and so everyone can feel like they actually did something good lol.
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Conflict posted...

Btw saying you're gonna donate to a transgender cause solely because people are calling you out on a message board is literally the exact opposite of genuine support. You wouldn't do it if this discussion wasn't happening, so I don't know why on earth you think that's supposed to make you look good lol

Yeah, not to forget that he's bragging about withholding "support" if two trans posters don't grovel in front of him.

Much support, such ally

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UnfairRepresent posted...

I don't even think you know what you're trying to say anymore.

Gender and biology aren't the same thing. A woman born in a man's body is a woman... In a man's body.

The body part is still there. Socially the mind/soul/attitude whatever? Who cares. Everyone deserves equality and it's a dumb thing to hate on others for.

But the literal physical body? In physical contests against literal physical female bodies? That's not fair.

And again I point to all the people like you (all of which curiously can't raise nor respond too a single actual point) that scream about transphobia can't explain why none of the "transphobes" have any issue with FtM Transgenders playing in the male leagues.

It still looks like you're saying trans people are making a choice. You shouldn't respect their choice. You should respect their natural existence.

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FlameTurtle posted...

Yeah, not to forget that he's bragging about withholding "support" if two trans posters don't grovel in front of him.

Much support, such ally

Actually, I already donated. Just was hoping to get them to post again to actually try and show support or be positive instead if griping all day like usual. Maybe even get more donations. But whatevs, I did good and I feel like I did a good thing, and that's enough for me lol

https://imgur.com/a/zouKYE0
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Again, how shitty of a person do you have to be to try and claim that two trans women don't actually support the trans community

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Slayer_22 posted...

I did good and I feel like I did a good thing, and that's enough for me lol

Because it's all about you.

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FlameTurtle posted...

Again, how shitty of a person do you have to be to try and claim that two trans women don't actually support the trans community

Lol, quote when I said that. As far as I remember, I said they could support it in a positive way by simply posting. This is legitimately sad that you will go this far to try and paint me as a bad person.

Unknown5uspect posted...

Because it's all about you.

I mean, it's more about feeling good by doing a good thing. If that's selfish, then fuck, I'm gonna be selfish all the damn time.
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Orchestrion posted...

Another topic full of bad faith transphobic shitposting that mods are cool with

So when someone doesn't agree with you, you want them punished?

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super_clout posted...

So when someone doesn't agree with you, you want them punished?

Like has been demonstrated with this entire topic: yes.
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Slayer_22 posted...

As far as I remember, I said they could support it in a positive way

You would have to be a really shitty person to think that you can dictate how trans people should support the community that they're a part of.

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FlameTurtle posted...

You would have to be a really shitty person to think that you can dictate how trans people should support the community that they're a part of.

I'm sorry, but flaming people on message boards supports no one. Idgaf who you are or what you support, but pushing away people from a positive movement is not gonna help anyone and drives people away. It hurts.
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FlameTurtle posted...

You would have to be a really shitty person to think that you can dictate how trans people should support the community that they're a part of.

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super_clout posted...

So when someone doesn't agree with you, you want them punished?

You are "disagreeing" about people's rights and their ability to participate in society on an equal basis. Some people might get mad about that, yes.

I remember these exact same types of debates about gay marriage happening in 2010 where straight people who "supported equal rights" would not so subtlety threaten to stop supporting those rights if gay people weren't sufficiently nice or deferential in asking to have them respected.

That's what many of you are doing right now.

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So , former Olympic athlete / trans person tells the truth about a topic that they happen to accidentally be qualified to speak on and is roundly criticized.

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Slayer_22 posted...

I'm sorry, but flaming people on message boards supports no one. Idgaf who you are or what you support, but pushing away people from a positive movement is not gonna help anyone and drives people away. It hurts.

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Just get Blair White to run for governor instead. She has the same contributions and politics as Jenner does but at least she's attractive and hasn't killed anyone because they were talking on their cell phone while driving.

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legendary_zell posted...

would not so subtlety threaten to stop supporting those rights if gay people weren't sufficiently nice or deferential in asking to have them respected.

Yeah, it's always super shitty when people do things like this

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YourLovelyTina posted...

Notice no-one is crying about Transboys competing in male sports...

Gee, I wonder why that is

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legendary_zell posted...

You are "disagreeing" about people's rights and their ability to participate in society on an equal basis. Some people might get mad about that, yes.

You can participate in all of Men's Sports Leagues without issue, that puts you on equal footing.

Plenty of room on the Men's side for everybody to join in, everybody is welcome to participate.

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Even though i know it wouldn't be fair at all, a part of me wants to see trans girls be allowed to participate in Women's professional sports

Imagine the influx of trans girls or guys pretending to be trans women entering pro leagues just to get paid. I would definitely watch that, and I'm sure a lot would too just for sheer curiosity. Which would mean more ratings, meaning more revenue and incentive for trans girls entering women's pro leagues, to the point when biological females would be driven out of the league completely.

Imagine any male tennis player who was great in collegiate ranks but couldn't quite make it to the pros, always knew she was female and joins the women's tennis pro league. She would be the instant GOAT, Serena in her prime wouldnt even be able to compete.


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Man this topic got derailed pretty quickly. I'd like to pose an honest question and hopefully not receive too much blow-back as I'm genuinely curious on what the other side has to say about this.

If we take a very basic athletic event, like the mile run, for example. To me, this is just flat-out raw athleticism. Sure, there's strategy in training and breathing but at the end of the day, it's just a person running as fast as they can while trying to push their body to the absolute limit.

The world record for men is around 3:43. From what I've read, the "four-minute barrier" has been broken by over 1,400 male athletes. This statistic may be a little outdated so I'd imagine more have crossed it by now. The world record for women is about 4:13, which is a full 30 seconds slower then the men's world record. But even more interesting, it's not even remotely close to being a 4-minute mile.

How does one argue that biological sex doesn't come into play for athletic advantage? The fastest documented woman who ever lived wouldn't even rank among the top several thousand fastest men. You'd think there might be one or two women who could run a sub-4-minute mile, but no. Heck, I had a buddy who ran a 4:25 mile for track once in high school. It legit boggles my mind that he can run it faster than 99.9% of women on the planet. While I wouldn't propose to call this whole mile-run analysis a fully-sanctioned scientific study, can anyone honestly look at the above data and dismiss it to something other than sex?

I support CJ's stance on this. To me, it's just common sense.

And for the "Well what about FTM competing in male sports???"

Sure, go ahead. They won't dominate the podium and smash records due to their male physiology, and thus it won't be as inequitable as MTF competing with the ladies.

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Cyberwrath posted...

Man this topic got derailed pretty quickly. I'd like to pose an honest question and hopefully not receive too much blow-back as I'm genuinely curious on what the other side has to say about this.

If we take a very basic athletic event, like the mile run, for example. To me, this is just flat-out raw athleticism. Sure, there's strategy in training and breathing but at the end of the day, it's just a person running as fast as they can while trying to push their body to the absolute limit.

The world record for men is around 3:43. From what I've read, the "four-minute barrier" has been broken by over 1,400 male athletes. This statistic may be a little outdated so I'd imagine more have crossed it by now. The world record for women is about 4:13, which is a full 30 seconds slower then the men's world record. But even more interesting, it's not even remotely close to being a 4-minute mile.

How does one argue that biological sex doesn't come into play for athletic advantage? The fastest documented woman who ever lived wouldn't even rank among the top several thousand fastest men. You'd think there might be one or two women who could run a sub-4-minute mile, but no. Heck, I had a buddy who ran a 4:25 mile for track once in high school. It legit boggles my mind that he can run it faster than 99.9% of women on the planet. While I wouldn't propose to call this whole mile-run analysis a fully-sanctioned scientific study, can anyone honestly look at the above data and dismiss it to something other than sex?

I understand your point, but I have a feeling 99% of CE are the farthest from the athletic type,

There are many here who have a very skewed idea of how males are just naturally physically superior, probably because most people (male and female) were athletically superior than them in school.

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Cyberwrath posted...

How does one argue that biological sex doesn't come into play for athletic advantage?

You're comparing cis men to cis women. Trans women are not cis men.

TheOtherMike posted...

You're comparing cis men to cis women. Trans women are not cis men.

They're not cis women either

Do you think it's just a giant coincidence that a transgendered female has absolutely crushed female power lifting records?

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shockthemonkey posted...

Post receipts and I will too

I did.

Slayer_22 posted...

https://imgur.com/a/zouKYE0

Good shit, my dude! Maybe we can get more people on board for a charity train! :D
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Cyberwrath posted...

The world record for men is around 3:43. From what I've read, the "four-minute barrier" has been broken by over 1,400 male athletes. This statistic may be a little outdated so I'd imagine more have crossed it by now. The world record for women is about 4:13, which is a full 30 seconds slower then the men's world record. But even more interesting, it's not even remotely close to being a 4-minute mile.

The average person probably can't get close to those records, male or female. That takes a lot of time and training to accomplish. Without a comparison of your everyday typical male and typical female, it's hard to say this couldn't be more even or competitive. If all we looked at was the record, yes, it would suggest there is a physical edge for males here.

But to be honest, I couldn't get close to the women's record, even when I was more fit. I was however not aiming to be a sprinter, so I don't know what factors you could look at outside of just training. Physical standards, as I recall, however, have always been skewed to being 'lighter' on girls in school. I honestly have no clue if this is based on anything scientific, or if it's just the course assumption that women have better things to do than be athletes.

Also I would imagine that a trans woman, depending on what their state of transition is, is going to be pumped up with testosterone to keep up with males. I mean, I'm guessing here, I honestly don't recall off hand. If that were case I don't see why it should matter really.

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>former multiple event elite level olympic gold medalist man turned transwoman backing bill that bans trans women from competing with other females.

"lol ignorant transphobe" from keyboard warriors that probably have trouble lifting a kettlebell themselves.

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Do the people arguing for Jenners position not realize the affected groups or leagues already have rule in place for trans athletes to be eligible for competition. Anthony Davis types arent suddenly going to the WNBA. Tyson Fury types arent suddenly going to start boxing female opponents. There are actual processes these athletes have to go through to be recognized as eligible.

Frankly you dont know the impact it would have on womens sports because its such a statistical anomaly as it stands that everyone just pulls anecdotal shit of the few times it has happened. For every MMA fight ending in injury or powerlifting record broken you also have WNBA player who isnt blowing away competition or MMA fighter who gets her ass wiped against competition. Almost like athletic skill widely varies regardless of identity. So if they fall within the confines of the rules of whatever league they want to compete in, let them compete, and if it truly affects competition that greatly those organizations can literally just adjust their rules accordingly. Its not a hard concept.

How many of you arguing against allowing them to compete actually watch womens sports anyway? Youd think with how hot button of a topic this has been lately womens sports viewership would be at a much higher level than it is, or that they as athletes were more closely compensated as their male counterparts as a result. Almost like people dont actually give a shit about the sanctity of womens sports but just find another avenue to shit on what they dont want to take the time to understand.

Also find it incredibly interesting that in the middle of a pandemic this is the shit certain political members have decided to focus on instead of actually helping their constituents

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Shitty, shittier, shittiest, this thread!

Glad I missed this.

Damn.

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transwomen are women and should be allowed to compete

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DezDroppedFreak posted...

Do the people arguing for Jenners position not realize the affected groups or leagues already have rule in place for trans athletes to be eligible for competition. Anthony Davis types arent suddenly going to the WNBA. Tyson Fury types arent suddenly going to start boxing female opponents. There are actual processes these athletes have to go through to be recognized as eligible.

Frankly you dont know the impact it would have on womens sports because its such a statistical anomaly as it stands that everyone just pulls anecdotal shit of the few times it has happened. For every MMA fight ending in injury or powerlifting record broken you also have WNBA player who isnt blowing away competition or MMA fighter who gets her ass wiped against competition. Almost like athletic skill widely varies regardless of identity. So if they fall within the confines of the rules of whatever league they want to compete in, let them compete, and if it truly affects competition that greatly those organizations can literally just adjust their rules accordingly. Its not a hard concept.

How many of you arguing against allowing them to compete actually watch womens sports anyway? Youd think with how hot button of a topic this has been lately womens sports viewership would be at a much higher level than it is, or that they as athletes were more closely compensated as their male counterparts as a result. Almost like people dont actually give a shit about the sanctity of womens sports but just find another avenue to shit on what they dont want to take the time to understand.

Also find it incredibly interesting that in the middle of a pandemic this is the shit certain political members have decided to focus on instead of actually helping their constituents

Its not a statistical anomaly at all. Across basically every track and field sport in history with so many thousands of documented events, the participants in the male category are 10% faster than the ones in the women's category. From the 100m right through to the mile and beyond. Swimming and cycling and the rest too.

That's just track and field. In weightlifting its about 30% or more of a difference.

The point here is that we have the data on like for like "typical male" and "typical female", as well as "elite male" vs "elite female", because we have so much of it. The conclusion you can draw is that there's a large overlap, but not any overlap at all at the top end.

And thats important because hypothetically if you were to do a "we are all the same, let's just have one category" type experiment, you could say goodbye to women in elite sports, cis and trans. There wouldn't be any.

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While a trans woman saying something provocative is not rare, I'm sure at least a few people found Jenner's statement a shock considering the relation. However, this would also not be the first time a trans celeb said something against the presumed status quo...

Similar to how other folk in the LGBTQ do not think uniformly, neither do trans folk.

Although I think it's fair to say this likely comes at the cost of Jenner's shot at being the governor of California. If there was any US state that would consider that tweet a sin...

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OpenlyGator posted...

While a trans woman saying something provocative is not rare, I'm sure at least a few people found Jenner's statement a shock considering the relation. However, this would also not be the first time a trans celeb said something against the presumed status quo...

Similar to how other folk in the LGBTQ do not think uniformly, neither do trans folk.

Although I think it's fair to say this likely comes at the cost of Jenner's shot at being the governor of California. If there was any US state that would consider that tweet a sin...

She never had a chance. She is running as a republican.

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DezDroppedFreak posted...

Do the people arguing for Jenners position not realize the affected groups or leagues already have rule in place for trans athletes to be eligible for competition. Anthony Davis types arent suddenly going to the WNBA. Tyson Fury types arent suddenly going to start boxing female opponents. There are actual processes these athletes have to go through to be recognized as eligible.

She's talking about schools

You're talking so much shit and yet you don't even know what you're mad about

Frankly you dont know the impact it would have on womens sports because its such a statistical anomaly as it stands that everyone just pulls anecdotal shit of the few times it has happened. For every MMA fight ending in injury or powerlifting record broken you also have WNBA player who isnt blowing away competition or MMA fighter who gets her ass wiped against competition. Almost like athletic skill widely varies regardless of identity. So if they fall within the confines of the rules of whatever league they want to compete in, let them compete, and if it truly affects competition that greatly those organizations can literally just adjust their rules accordingly. Its not a hard concept.

This is such a bad argument.

1. There is research that you're ignoring
2. Going "Well the number is so low so the transgenders dominating their sports don't count" makes no sese... That's even more damning if the numbers are that low and yet the issues are that apparent.
3. If your argument truly is "the numbers are that low." then the ball is in your court to keep the ban in place until you can prove that there is no advantage (which will never happen) not just insist the advantage doesn't matter because the number is low.

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Government should not regulate whether trans women can participate in women's sports.

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CyricZ posted...

Government should not regulate whether trans women can participate in women's sports.

Why not?

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pinky0926 posted...

Its not a statistical anomaly at all. Across basically every track and field sport in history with so many thousands of documented events, the participants in the male category are 10% faster than the ones in the women's category. From the 100m right through to the mile and beyond. Swimming and cycling and the rest too.

That's just track and field. In weightlifting its about 30% or more of a difference.

Its not a statistical anomaly
>quotes me differences in biological men and women categories when I specifically said trans women competing in womens sports, once again showing a lack of understanding there is a difference between biological men and trans women undergoing treatment that blocks components that help them maintain that muscle mass that makes the difference and that every journey into transitioning starts at different points of life.

UnfairRepresent posted...

She's talking about schools

You're talking so much shit and yet you don't even know what you're mad about

? What point do you think youre making here? Im aware of that. If anything that greatly amplifies it because kids identifying as trans would most likely be able to be on puberty blocking agents which just further solidifies the point. This is also not the first time in the last few months this issue has been in the news. The whole point of those comparisons was those are the disaster scenarios people jump to in their mind when discussing this.

UnfairRepresent posted...

There is research that you're ignoring

There are literally studies showing both ends of the argument as have already been posted in here, all with relatively small
sample sizes, which is an inherent trait of the population being studied. Its also debatable how much the differences found inherently matter and varies across sport. You can be able to do more push-ups than your competition and still suck ass at whatever sport youre trying to compete in.

UnfairRepresent posted...

Going "Well the number is so low so the transgenders dominating their sports don't count" makes no sese... That's even more damning if the numbers are that low and yet the issues are that apparent.

The main issue I see is this being highly politicized and being used to score points with a base. Its not about protecting womens sports or whatever bullshit people tell themselves.

UnfairRepresent posted...

If your argument truly is "the numbers are that low." then the ball is in your court to keep the ban in place until you can prove that there is no advantage (which will never happen) not just insist the advantage doesn't matter because the number is low.

If they fall within current guidelines, let them compete and adjust accordingly.

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https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1388132937707802629

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DezDroppedFreak posted...

Its not a statistical anomaly
>quotes me differences in biological men and women categories when I specifically said trans women competing in womens sports, once again showing a lack of understanding there is a difference between biological men and trans women undergoing treatment that blocks components that help them maintain that muscle mass that makes the difference and that every journey into transitioning starts at different points of life.

I actually misread your post and missed the context, so I apologise.

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