Board 8 > It looks like Dan Avidan of NinjaSexParty/Game Grumps is accused of grooming.

(+) Yeah! (+)

I would deifnitely wager that there are a lot of morally questionable things going on in the background of Twitch.

Theres a lot of mini-celebrity culture going around.


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red13n posted...

I would deifnitely wager that there are a lot of morally questionable things going on in the background of Twitch.

Theres a lot of mini-celebrity culture going around.

Honestly I find the whole idea of subs weird. Like why would I donate money to someone who's already making more than me just by playing video games.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

I mean I'm not saying you're wrong, but then almost the entirety of Twitch is unethical.

I'd say there's an argument that it is, yeah.

But there are certainly degrees between Twitch streamers trying to lure people into subbing/donating and a man manipulating women for sex.

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There sure is a lot of accepting that the world has a lot of fucked up, but not super fucked up, people in it and saying we shouldn't ever even try to strive for any better in this topic.

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StealThisSheen posted...

But there are certainly degrees between Twitch streamers trying to lure people into subbing/donating and a man manipulating women for sex.

Eh it's still the same concept, there's just usually not sex involved. Streamers and YouTubers will let you be a mod or join the Discord if you pay enough. Essentially having people pay just so they can feel like they're friends with an internet celeb.

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BetrayedTangy posted...

Eh it's still the same concept, there's just usually not sex involved.

I mean that's a pretty big qualifier

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StealThisSheen posted...

I mean that's a pretty big qualifier

Maybe I'm thinking this way because I'm a guy, but I'd rather be manipulated into sex (especially if I already had a desire for it) than give away constant amounts of money to someone I'm never even going to meet irl.

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MrSmartGuy posted...

There sure is a lot of accepting that the world has a lot of fucked up, but not super fucked up, people in it and saying we shouldn't ever even try to strive for any better in this topic.

Most people have a pretty pessimistic outlook of humanity in general (I ran a B8 poll about this a while back, and the split between "people suck" vs "people are cool" was at least 75/25), and a fair number of us have a shitty view of ourselves.

That said, I do think we should strive to better. In this example, a guy like Dan is never gonna stop living out his rock fantasy and hooking up with fans, so he should at least mitigate the emotional damage and be upfront as fuck with his intentions, the way someone like Gene Simmons probably is.

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BetrayedTangy posted...

Maybe I'm thinking this way because I'm a guy, but I'd rather be manipulated into sex (especially if I already had a desire for it) than give away constant amounts of money to someone I'm never even going to meet irl.

A Twitch sub is what, like 5 bucks a month?

I'd think being manipulated and used for sex has a higher chance of causing emotional distress than that.

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StealThisSheen posted...

A Twitch sub is what, like 5 bucks a month?

I'd think being manipulated and used for sex has a higher chance of causing emotional distress than that.

It goes further than that. A lot of people buy Twitch Subs in bulk, plus they buy gift subs for other people. Then there's Patreon which has several different payment options with different perks. Not to mention people who donate to multiple streamers as well as all the time spent watching their content as opposed to doing literally anything else.

I guess I really don't view sex as that big of a deal anymore. Most women I've met usually go for sex right away then worry about dating after that. So I guess to me it doesn't really make sense getting emotionally invested before even having sex.

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StealThisSheen posted...

But there are certainly degrees between Twitch streamers trying to lure people into subbing/donating and a man manipulating women for sex.

because you don't believe in women's capability of autonomy?

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Santa, given your previous takes in topics like these, it'd probably be a good idea to not join in on this one.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

i just don't see how "the girls were really dumb" is an argument for them not being victims. like, if i lose all of my money because i'm really dumb and i responded to a scam e-mail, i'm still a victim.

I'm also late to this, but the guys name is "Danny Sexbang"

If the scam email was signed off with "phone center scam artist" I'd say I probably don't fault that guy for any money he makes.

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StealThisSheen posted...

Santa, given your previous takes in topics like these, it'd probably be a good idea to not join in on this one.

Hey I'm just pointing out your incredibly sexist take.

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what are y'all even arguing about here

i feel like everyone pretty much agrees but a few people REALLY want Dan to be labeled as an irredeemable scumbag over this and so the reaction is similar from the other side in response to that extreme

can't we just say "Yeah he kinda sucks" and call it a day.

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Geosanta posted...

Hey I'm just pointing out your incredibly sexist take.

You're like the most rapey sounding dude on this board every time you get into these kinds of debates. It's a legitimate suggestion.

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no real abuse happened here btw.

shitty actions by a likely shitty person but abuse? c'mon

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ExThaNemesis posted...

what are y'all even arguing about here

i feel like everyone pretty much agrees but a few people REALLY want Dan to be labeled as an irredeemable scumbag over this and so the reaction is similar from the other side in response to that extreme

can't we just say "Yeah he kinda sucks" and call it a day.

ExThaNemesis posted...

no real abuse happened here btw.

shitty actions by a likely shitty person but abuse? c'mon

A shitty action with actual intent can be abuse, yes.

If a man hits a woman once, do you say that's abuse or do you say "this is just a shitty action by a shitty person"?

You guys frankly don't understand how being lied to for months to over a year can fuck someone up, then be used for sex, and then never contacted again can really mess someone up.

If you can't understand that's abuse, I don't know what to tell you. Just because he didn't pump and ghost them more than once somehow doesn't make it less than abuse.

And it's not even an isolated incident. This is what he's done to at least a dozen witnesses, all of which are women in their early 20s fresh out of high school.

These pathetic takes of "wow what about a women's autonomy" are gross. If these women went into this WITHOUT being lied to, being told up front "Yeah, we're just going to have sex. No strings attached" and that was it, sure. If it was some rando and not a celebrity they've witnessed a thousand hours of them, yeah. Sure. But talking about a women's autonomy when they're lied to for months upon months and led to believe that there is something more to come from this, and it's by someone they idolize and adore and made them feel special? No, it's not that simple anymore. You don't actually have full autonomy anymore. Because someone else is warping the stakes of it to such a degree that, if they knew the actual truth of the situation and the dynamic was different, they likely wouldn't make the same decision.

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Abuse: use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse.

It's the very definition of abuse. He's literally abusing his celebrity to take advantage of women.


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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

all of which are women in their early 20s fresh out of high school.

I feel like you keep saying this, trying to make it sound even worse. You could also say fresh out of college and be correct. But you're clearly trying to paint him as bad as possible.

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BetrayedTangy posted...

Honestly I find the whole idea of subs weird. Like why would I donate money to someone who's already making more than me just by playing video games.

For me I see it as payment for services rendered. You've entertained me for a few hours, and I want to pay you back and see you succeed.

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TheRock1525 posted...

It's the same conceptually as a boss promising a promotion if you sleep with them.

You take something a lesser party desires, use it to fulfill your own sexual desires, then cast them aside when the deed is done because you never intended to follow through on the promise.

No, no it really REALLY is NOT. Your employer controls your fate in a way, an eccentric Let's Player does not. Not unless you work for him.

The White Knighting in this topic is kind of gross. Why do you all think of-age women can't think for themselves?

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wg64Z posted...

The White Knighting in this topic is kind of gross. Why do you all think of-age women can't think for themselves?

Yes, the issue is clearly "women's ability to think for themselves" and not "men using power imbalances to make false promises to garner favors."

It's apparently white knighting to believe women shouldn't be used and emotionally abused for the sake of a man's sexual desires.

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It was her sexual desires too. If she didn't have those, it wouldn't have happened. You're way too narrow in your scope of this situation. It's not a power imbalance at all. If she said No, nothing in her life would have changed. A power imbalance comes from the fear/threat of losing something if you don't comply.

If it did, and Dan actively tried to ruin her life in some way after she said No, THEN I would agree with you. But he most likely would've moved on immediately.

And to top this all off, we have NO idea how she acted in the moment. She could've said and done some weeeeeeeeeeeeeeird stuff that Dan did not want anything to do with. Sometimes ghosting IS the best way out when you're dealing with certain people. And even if it isn't, again, IT'S NOBODIES BUSINESS BUT THEIR OWN.

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wg64Z posted...

If it did, and Dan actively tried to ruin her life in some way after she said No

You do realize that's a legit fear, right? That celebrity can turn a legion of fans against you over a perceived slight? If she had said no, you don't think he could have gone on Grumps and said "hey, this girl x seemed really interested in me and then suddenly she said she wasn't interested in me anymore, and she broke my heart." You don't think a legion of fangirls wouldn't swarm this poor girl? Did you miss when information about ProJared and CommanderHolly's infidelity that Holly was harrassed to the point that the man she cheated on, RubberRoss, had to step in and say cool it? Hell, on a Game Grump episode, Arin and Dan made fun of a literal Gamefaqs FAQ written years ago and said it was horribly written and the user who made it was an idiot. Fans went and harrassed this man who made a Sonic Adventure FAQ over a decade ago to the point where they had to go back and censor the episode so they didn't say his name anymore so the poor guy could be left in peace.

You don't think that plays into the girls decision making? That there's a personal army of fans they can unleash if you ever harm poor innocent Danny?

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TheRock1525 posted...

You do realize that's a legit fear, right? That celebrity can turn a legion of fans against you over a perceived slight? If she had said no, you don't think he could have gone on Grumps and said "hey, this girl x seemed really interested in me and then suddenly she said she wasn't interested in me anymore, and she broke my heart." You don't think a legion of fangirls wouldn't swarm this poor girl? Did you miss when information about ProJared and CommanderHolly's infidelity that Holly was harrassed to the point that the man she cheated on, RubberRoss, had to step in and say cool it? Hell, on a Game Grump episode, Arin and Dan made fun of a literal Gamefaqs FAQ written years ago and said it was horribly written and the user who made it was an idiot. Fans went and harrassed this man who made a Sonic Adventure FAQ over a decade ago to the point where they had to go back and censor the episode so they didn't say his name anymore so the poor guy could be left in peace.

You don't think that plays into the girls decision making? That there's a personal army of fans they can unleash if you ever harm poor innocent Danny?

Mmmm no, I really don't. That's pretty naive too.

Actually can you link me to an example where Dan has done this in the past?

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wg64Z posted...

Mmmm no, I really don't.

Then you really don't understand celebrity culture or fandom.

Or did you miss how lying about something literally led to a fucking riot at the Capitol building?

Or for a more analogous example, the treatment of Monica Lewinsky.

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Yeah what do any of those examples have to do with Dan? Does Dan have a history of sending an army of fans on people who say no to sex?

Can you show me a single example of when he's done this?

Dan could also grab a machine gun and shoot up a mall CAUSE OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DONE THAT!!

...But he hasn't. So what's your point?

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Internet celebrities could theoretically unleash their fan legions to harass just about anyone and the threat would be about the same regardless of whether the target themselves was also one of their fans. The argument basically amounts to internet celebrities not being allowed to have sex with someone unless the latter is completely off the grid.

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wg64Z posted...

Yeah what do any of those examples have to do with Dan? Does Dan have a history of sending an army of fans on people who say no to sex?

Can you show me a single example of when he's done this?

Dan could also grab a machine gun and shoot up a mall CAUSE OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DONE THAT!!

...But he hasn't. So what's your point?

You are moving the goal posts here. Badly. All that matters is that he has the ability to do that. His history is irrelevant.

If your boss asks you for sex, thats still wrong even if no one can prove that hes ever fired anyone for turning him down.

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You're hopeless.

Dan literally has had a legion of fans harass someone because they wrote a FAQ. Not even a bad one, they were literally did not understand that Knuckles stages were randomly generated and blamed the guy who wrote the FAQ.

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K so anyone with a fanbase isn't allowed to have sex. Not because of what they would do, but because of what they COULD do. Got it.

ITT We judge people based on their potential actions and not their actual ones. What a world!

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wg64Z posted...

K so anyone with a fanbase isn't allowed to have sex. Not because of what they would do, but because of what they COULD do. Got it.

ITT We judge people based on their potential actions and not their actual ones. What a world!

Like I said, hopeless.

The issue isn't that Dan had sex with fans.

The issue is that Dan had sex with fans under false pretenses and lies.

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TheRock1525 posted...

Dan literally has had a legion of fans harass someone because they wrote a FAQ. Not even a bad one, they were literally did not understand that Knuckles stages were randomly generated and blamed the guy who wrote the FAQ.

I'm sorry what are we debating here?

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TheRock1525 posted...

Like I said, hopeless.

The issue isn't that Dan had sex with fans.

The issue is that Dan had sex with fans under false pretenses and lies.

Hopeless because I don't agree with you. And yet you yourself are unwilling to see any different angle other than your own. Hypocrisy thy name is TheRock1525

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wg64Z posted...

Hopeless because I don't agree with you. And yet you yourself are unwilling to see any different angle other than your own. Hypocrisy thy name is TheRock1525

It's not about "a different angle." Its about you not understanding there's a massive difference in a relationship between two random adults and a celebrity/fan.

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CaptainOfCrush posted...

I'm sorry what are we debating here?

https://www.reddit.com/r/gamegrumps/comments/3hndux/apology/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

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redrocket posted...

https://www.reddit.com/r/gamegrumps/comments/3hndux/apology/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

Wow what a fucking monster.

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I dunno Rock, you bring up the fear of fan retribution, and I take it to mean that you're implying she may have felt coerced/pressured into giving him what he wants, which is a more serious allegation than him lying about commitment.

What are you implying here?

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TheRock1525 posted...

Like I said, hopeless.

The issue isn't that Dan had sex with fans.

The issue is that Dan had sex with fans under false pretenses and lies.

Sure.

its just that the latter part being wrong has no real connection to Dan also having a large internet fanbase that could be used for nefarious purposes.

Dan being a notorious harasser of FAQ writers or whatever could potentially make him a creep in that regard as well and someone who itd be wise to avoid. Even if this was the case though, Im having difficulty seeing why he shouldnt ever be allowed to have any sex with anyone

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

And it's not even an isolated incident. This is what he's done to at least a dozen witnesses, all of which are women in their early 20s fresh out of high school.

Not only that, but these women all used to be in elementary school. Let that sink in. This guy is a creep!

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Dude all of these women were BABIES once wtf DAN

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CaptainOfCrush posted...

I dunno Rock, you bring up the fear of fan retribution, and I take it to mean that you're implying she may have felt coerced/pressured into giving him what he wants, which is a more serious allegation than him lying about commitment.

What are you implying here?

It's not implying anything. Its understanding why people keep saying "there's a power imbalance" because their literally is one. A woman turning me down is significantly different than a woman turning a celebrity down. Same as me criticizing a politician is different than Tucker Carlson criticizing a politician, or me praising a video game is different than PewDiePie praising one.

There no woman out there going "man, I really love you as TheRock1525" the same way someone is going "man, I really love you as Danny Sexbang."

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AxemRedRanger posted...

Sure.

its just that the latter part being wrong has no real connection to Dan also having a large internet fanbase that could be used for nefarious purposes.

Dan being a notorious harasser of FAQ writers or whatever could potentially make him a creep in that regard as well and someone who itd be wise to avoid. Even if this was the case though, Im having difficulty seeing why he shouldnt ever be allowed to have any sex with anyone

Why does it always jump to "why isn't he allowed to have sex?!?!?"

He is allowed to have sex. Hell, he's allowed to have sex with fans, too. The point is to be open and honest with these women about what he wants instead of literally preying on their fanhoods and emotions in such a way to make false promises he never intended to keep.

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I mean, I totally understand that fans being starstruck can lead to illogical behavior, but people make illogical decisions all the time. It ain't the celebrity's responsibility to think on behalf of the consenting adult who is capable of their own decisions and expressing their own desires.

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TheRock1525 posted...

Why does it always jump to "why isn't he allowed to have sex?!?!?"

He is allowed to have sex. Hell, he's allowed to have sex with fans, too. The point is to be open and honest with these women about what he wants instead of literally preying on their fanhoods and emotions in such a way to make false promises he never intended to keep.

Oh, so if hes honest about his intentions suddenly the alleged power imbalance is now totally okay and his potential online harassment army is irrelevant, meaning those were never serious issues to begin with and the real issue was his dishonesty?

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CaptainOfCrush posted...

I mean, I totally understand that fans being starstruck can lead to illogical behavior, but people make illogical decisions all the time. It ain't the celebrity's responsibility to think on behalf of the consenting adult who is capable of their own decisions and expressing their own desires.

I think you keep missing the lying and manipulating part. She's consenting but under false pretenses. Dan is promising things he never intends to deliver. If Dan is being upfront with his desires and she's still choosing to more forward, then yes she would have nothing to stand on. But based on shared messages and texts so far Dan absolutely isn't being upfront about his desire to fuck and bail.

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Ever cross your mind that maybe he did intend to deliver, but happened to discover that "shit she cray cray"?

Again, this doesn't matter whatsoever to the allegations, but it might help your brain a bit.

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AxemRedRanger posted...

Oh, so if hes honest about his intentions suddenly the alleged power imbalance is now totally okay and his potential online harassment army is irrelevant, meaning those were never serious issues to begin with and the real issue was his dishonesty?

The power imbalance is still there, but at the very least it gives the fan a better shield against backlash and harassment.

Its always an issue, but there's scenarios where it can be less of an issue.

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Im not going to defend Dan too much, as I agree he acted sleazy and ghosting is never a cool move, but its worth noting that Dan did start dating his current girlfriend sometime in 2018, which is around when the bulk of these accusations are and who is around the same age as the specific girl that kicked this whole thing off (and maybe also a fan?) so its possible he was genuinely looking for a relationship at the time. Doesnt excuse his behaviour, but food for thought.

Also, not sure this has been brought up yet, but Dan did respond to all this:

I stand by the fact that any interactions that took place of a sexual nature with the person in question were done so when she was 22 years old and we were both consenting adults, Dan said. To claim I engaged in any predatory behavior is simply untrue. I have made mistakes in the past, and I apologize if my actions or words ever made anyone upset, but those mistakes were never ill-intentioned, exploitative or illegal in any capacity.

https://www.gamerevolution.com/news/677141-game-grumps-dan-avidan-responds-allegations-apology

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