Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 342: Biden: His Time

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Peace___Frog posted...

Imagine how much the value for homes would go up if people could actually save up for a house

Oh lordy. I've already paid off my student loans and i don't own a house

I guess i should selfishly be opposed to forgiveness, or maybe buy a house right now

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If you have equity, you desperately want college kids to be able to pump money into houses/stocks (which is where the money would go)

I would be mindful of not providing stimulus to those without college loan debt and without equity. I'm all for college loan reform and college reform in general, but I guess I worry about giving one group of people a boost, which would then further boost wealthier people, and letting other people fall behind.

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Sorozone posted...

I agree.

Honestly(to the surprise of no one) the whole education system just needs to be completely reworked. Unfortunately I don't see anything being fundamentally changed anytime soon.

I don't disagree that post-secondary education in the US is completely broken. I read up on tuition costs in the US versus Canada and I was shocked. I was able to pay for my 4 year Bachelors without any government loans just by working a part time job while going to school. What I have a hard time grappling with is why smart, hard working people need to pay off the debts of people that just wanted to party for 4 years. It's the exact opposite of a meritocracy.


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Ben Carson tested positive for covid, he was at the election night party at the WH

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BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

What I have a hard time grappling with is why smart, hard working people need to pay off the debts of people that just wanted to party for 4 years. It's the exact opposite of a meritocracy.

1.) Life shouldnt be a meritocracy

2.) Canceling debt doesnt mean other people are paying the debt, it just means theyre not collecting
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What are you talking about? Do you not understand how loans work?

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Jakyl25 posted...

1.) Life shouldnt be a meritocracy

2.) Canceling debt doesnt mean other people are paying the debt, it just means theyre not collecting

Additionally, even if BT's logic was sound, you'd likely have 4-year partiers paying off the debt of hard workers as well, because the job market is screwing EVERYONE equally, and the ability to convert your college degree into well-paying employment is a complete crapshoot right now.

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BT has made this post several times before, he is just trolling. He does not want an answer.

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BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

I don't disagree that post-secondary education in the US is completely broken. I read up on tuition costs in the US versus Canada and I was shocked. I was able to pay for my 4 year Bachelors without any government loans just by working a part time job while going to school. What I have a hard time grappling with is why smart, hard working people need to pay off the debts of people that just wanted to party for 4 years. It's the exact opposite of a meritocracy.

And many people don't like welfare because there's that small percentage of people who abuse it.

But you don't abandon doing a good thing just because a select few will use that good thing to receive something that they didn't deserve.

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Also no one goes into debt to party for 4 years unless you live in, like, a movie about college, rather than real life.

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You know, I think one of the biggest problems with our country is that most people never read articles past the headline.

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Inviso posted...

Additionally, even if BT's logic was sound, you'd likely have 4-year partiers paying off the debt of hard workers as well, because the job market is screwing EVERYONE equally, and the ability to convert your college degree into well-paying employment is a complete crapshoot right now.

Every person I know that has a real degree has a job. Pretty much the only people that have this problem are the ones that decided to go into arts/humanities programs, not understanding that those degrees are useless for getting a job.

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Kenri posted...

Also no one goes into debt to party for 4 years unless you live in, like, a movie about college, rather than real life.

Toga! Toga! Toga!
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BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

real degree

Ok
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Kenri posted...

Also no one goes into debt to party for 4 years unless you live in, like, a movie about college, rather than real life.

Admittedly it has been 10 years since I was in school, but at least 50% of people in first year were there to party and had no interest in actually learning anything. That does taper off as those people fail or drop out, but it is 100% a huge problem with this plan. How do the "progressives" plan to address these people that just wasted everyone's time and money?

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Jakyl25 posted...

Ok

$5 says you went to school to get a Philosphy degree

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For what it's worth, young people are aware of the changes in the global economy, which is why STEM is more popular than it was 20 years ago, and why liberal arts degrees are way less popular.

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Black Turtle is trolling no way how could we have seen this coming

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BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

Admittedly it has been 10 years since I was in school, but at least 50% of people in first year were there to party and had no interest in actually learning anything. That does taper off as those people fail or drop out, but it is 100% a huge problem with this plan. How do the "progressives" plan to address these people that just wasted everyone's time and money?

By forgiving their debt and increasing how much they can contribute to society?
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What people really need to be doing is getting back into the trades. That's where the real money is, and it is so in demand you won't have trouble getting a job. I think people are starting to shift back this way, my youngest brother is a mechanic, and i have a bunch of other younger relatives that are getting into the trades and making bank.

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Jakyl25 posted...

By forgiving their debt and increasing how much they can contribute to society?

They aren't contributing to society though. In fact, most of them are actively leeching on society already

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BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

Admittedly it has been 10 years since I was in school, but at least 50% of people in first year were there to party and had no interest in actually learning anything. That does taper off as those people fail or drop out, but it is 100% a huge problem with this plan.

You mean 18-19 year olds taking mostly GE requirements preferred partying to classes? Weird.

It tapers off into effectively no one by senior year though. If you make it that far, and especially if you go into debt for it, you're getting a degree, not (exclusively) partying.

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BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

What people really need to be doing is getting back into the trades. That's where the real money is, and it is so in demand you won't have trouble getting a job. I think people are starting to shift back this way, my youngest brother is a mechanic, and i have a bunch of other younger relatives that are getting into the trades and making bank.

This is has no relevance to the subject of preexisting debt.

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BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

Admittedly it has been 10 years since I was in school, but at least 50% of people in first year were there to party and had no interest in actually learning anything. That does taper off as those people fail or drop out, but it is 100% a huge problem with this plan. How do the "progressives" plan to address these people that just wasted everyone's time and money?

ain't a progressive but you basically answered your own question in here.
say 50% of people were there to party, it means 50% weren't.
of that 50% who were, a bunch of them failed or dropped out. there's also a matter of who paid for it here - there's a good chance that those who just went to party came from well off families in the first place. but if you're figuring half of those got culled then 75% of people were either serious about it or got a degree.

so the answer you're left with is just:

• forgiveness happens upon completion of a degree, this eliminates those who just went to party and failed.
• you can make additional qualifiers for certain humanities by including grad school.
• this would realistically apply to public colleges so private ones, which are where the major parties occur and the largest concentration of wealth, are irrelevant.

i also had no idea bullet point formatting was a thing in text now. cool feature.

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BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

Every person I know that has a real degree has a job. Pretty much the only people that have this problem are the ones that decided to go into arts/humanities programs, not understanding that those degrees are useless for getting a job.

For a lot of people, the major they choose in college has nothing to do with their eventual job (and I'm referring specifically to hard workers). I have a Masters' Degree in Geography, and I have not utilized that in any way since entering the job market. I currently work as an office supervisor for a government agency. Similarly, my mother majored in animal husbandry, yet she's currently the office manager for a branch of nationwide nursing homes.

Unless you specifically go to college for a "real degree" as you put it, odds are you don't really know what sort of career you intend on having after college. Yes, people who go into the STEM field are likely going to translate that into STEM employment, but it's not like English majors or Philosophy majors or Art majors are completely SOL. A lot of the reason people look for college degrees in today's job market is because it's less about the major, and more about the ability to prove you can handle the potential workload in an increasingly office-based economy.

Meanwhile, just to counter your point a little bit, people who go to college to become teachers are very much seeking "real" degrees for an important job, yet teachers are paid shit in our society, and suffer under the weight of college loans that their salary will not be able to fully pay off for a LONG time.

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Also, as a Physics/Math double major which is probably as "real" as a degree gets without selling your soul to engineering, please never dismiss "non-real" degrees again thanks

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Inviso posted...

A lot of the reason people look for college degrees in today's job market is because it's less about the major, and more about the ability to prove you can handle the potential workload in an increasingly office-based economy.

Great point. The emotional person's reaction to an office manager with a Masters Degree in English is always to yell "see, they didn't even need a degree for that job!" when the real-world response is that non-college educated people would never be considered for that job in the first place. This is 2020, not 1990.

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North Carolina just released their first update in nearly 3 days...13 votes.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

North Carolina just released their first update in nearly 3 days...13 votes.

At this rate, the vote will be counted by the time someone born today is old enough to run for President.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

North Carolina just released their first update in nearly 3 days...13 votes.

BUT WHAT WAS THE PERCENTAGE SPLIT BETWEEN TRUMP AND BIDEN?! IS BIDEN ON TRACK TO WIN THE STATE?!

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Trumps lead increased by 14 votes after additional reports from Richmond County. Were still waiting for additional votes in 70 counties. 20m ago

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You joke, but the results we start seeing once these mail counts come in are going to be super important for the senate race.

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Oh trust me, I truly hope the senate seat in NC is still in play.

I fear that it isn't, but I would love to be proven wrong. If Cal's race can get flipped then we could be looking at a potential 51 if the GA runoffs go well.

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I have more hope for Alaska than NC

though if Mitch isnt an asshole and just bipartisan governs I would rather republicans keep the senate because I think court packing is going to end up being the end of the constitution.

But I dont think anyone wants to be civil any more

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Cal is behind by 100k which seems like a huge ask considering that (according to the New York Times) there's only 180k votes left to count in general. He would need 78% of the remaining votes to win.

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masterplum posted...

I think court packing is going to end up being the end of the constitution

Plum. I have plenty of respect for you as a person.

But if this is your fear, then I think you've been too inundated with bad faith arguments by those on the right. In what world is democrats taking back stolen court seats worse than anything that the Republicans have already done?

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masterplum posted...

But I dont think anyone wants to be civil any more

Why should we be civil, when Republicans want to rip our rights away from us?

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Peace___Frog posted...

Plum. I have plenty of respect for you as a person.

But if this is your fear, then I think you've been too inundated with bad faith arguments by those on the right. In what world is democrats taking back stolen court seats worse than anything that the Republicans have already done?

Oh it's absolutely not. But I believe this is a situation where Democrats stooping to the Republicans level will permanently damage the country.

It sucks

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The damage done to the country by packing the courts with liberal justices would be less than the damage done by leaving it 6-3 in the GOP's favor.

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masterplum posted...

I have more hope for Alaska than NC

though if Mitch isnt an asshole and just bipartisan governs I would rather republicans keep the senate because I think court packing is going to end up being the end of the constitution.

But I dont think anyone wants to be civil any more

Why, exactly, would he start doing this now? He refused to bipartisan govern under Obama, going so far as to say his goal was to ensure Obama was a one-term president. He refused to bipartisan govern under Trump, first forcing through a series of Supreme Court justices on 52-48 votes (and using budget reconciliation to force through tax cuts for the rich), then utterly refused to acknowledge any bills put forth by the Democratic House once Dems won the House in 2018.

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Peace___Frog posted...

But if this is your fear, then I think you've been too inundated with bad faith arguments by those on the right. In what world is democrats taking back stolen court seats worse than anything that the Republicans have already done?

Even if you drop the retaliatory framing, it doesn't make sense.

Congress controlling the makeup of the Supreme Court is literally in the Constitution. Expanding it is following the powers it has by law. How would that lead to a constitutional crisis? You can complain that it'll escalate tensions, but the fact of the matter is that the structure of government remains completely intact.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

North Carolina just released their first update in nearly 3 days...13 votes.

Trumps lead increased by 14 votes after additional reports from Richmond County.

we did it guys we found the fraud

I'm going to assume these are different updates

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KamikazePotato posted...

The damage done to the country by packing the courts with liberal justices would be less than the damage done by leaving it 6-3 in the GOP's favor.

Yep. GOP stole a seat, and if we let them get away with it they'll see what else they can get away with. There has to be consequences.

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KamikazePotato posted...

The damage done to the country by packing the courts with liberal justices would be less than the damage done by leaving it 6-3 in the GOP's favor.

I think that is tough to say. I internalize this argument as having no supreme court would be better than a temporarily conservative one.

Which I think is short sighted, but an understandable position

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Dancedreamer posted...

Yep. GOP stole a seat, and if we let them get away with it they'll see what else they can get away with. There has to be consequences.

Sometimes people mistreat you and the best course of action isn't to get revenge as badly as you want it.

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Stealing court seats isn't the same as someone stealing your lunch out of the fridge.

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Court packing would be the end of the rule of law in this country.

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masterplum posted...

though if Mitch isnt an asshole and just bipartisan governs

You may as well be asking for the sun to rise from the west tomorrow

Mitch spent the past ten years proving he will actively avoid doing this at every opportunity

masterplum posted...

though if Mitch isnt an asshole and just bipartisan governs I would rather republicans keep the senate because I think court packing is going to end up being the end of the constitution.

For what it worth, the Dems wouldn't have the votes to pack the courts even if they somehow win North Carolina, Alaska, and both Georgia seats. Even if every Dem senator thought it was a good idea, there's too many swing/red state senators who would have to vote against it or lose their next election.
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masterplum posted...

Sometimes people mistreat you and the best course of action isn't to get revenge as badly as you want it.

Maybe tell this to the GOP?

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