Poll of the Day > Geez, there's some butthurt fishermen in Nova Scotia forming racist mobs...

(+) Yeah! (+)

Because the natives are fishing lobster out of season... which they are allowed to do anyways

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Now I want a lobster roll

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Mead posted...

Now I want a lobster roll

Lobsters can't roll, they're not isopods

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theyll do what I say

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I heard a boat got set on fire this week

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Last night, they burned down a warehouse full of lobster caught by native fishermen.

So many Canadians have absolutely no clue about the treaties between the federal government and the First Nations people. They have every right to continue fishing in the off season. I worry that the ignorance of so many Canadians will lead to us being in a Donald Trump situation eventually.

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faramir77 posted...

Last night, they burned down a warehouse full of lobster caught by native fishermen.

So many Canadians have absolutely no clue about the treaties between the federal government and the First Nations people. They have every right to continue fishing in the off season. I worry that the ignorance of so many Canadians will lead to us being in a Donald Trump situation eventually.

Thing is, even if they were outright pirate fisherman that doesn't give everyone else the right to literally use torches and pitchforks

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Any country that thinks they're immune to someone like him getting elected is sorely tempting fate.

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Lokarin posted...

Thing is, even if they were outright pirate fisherman that doesn't give everyone else the right to literally use torches and pitchforks

Agreed.

Oblivion_Hero posted...

Any country that thinks they're immune to someone like him getting elected is sorely tempting fate.

Scary, but agreed.

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It's pretty ridiculous. The plant was burned last night, a few days ago some Mi'kmaq fishermen were literally barricaded in the same plant while an angry mob dumped their lobster catch and torched a van (under police supervision and with no arrests, I might add). This is escalating from a couple weeks back when said mob was personally harassing suspected buyers of Mi'kmaq lobster, or a week or two before that when hordes of commercial fishing trawlers were literally ramming Mi'kmaq fishing boats, firing flares at the fishermen, and destroying their traps (again, under coast guard supervision, but no arrests were made). It's a very bad situation, caused entirely by a bunch of racist yokels with more missing chromosomes than teeth.

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Disgusting.

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adjl posted...

Mi'kmaq fishermen

I already know where this is going. Have fun with your pet semetary situation.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ipYMpwYs1rM

It's really a complex situation that goes beyond "Grr, fisherman racist." Well I definitely don't approve of the tactics used by the fisherman they have legitimate concerns about their livelihood. They have a fishing season for a reason. That's when the lobsters are more mature and as such they are larger. So fishing off season means they need to catch more of them and they are a finite resource. So now there is two groups lobster fishing as well and eventually the area is gonna be over fished and there will be no lobsters. Then the non=native fisherman and the native fisherman will both be out of luck.

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Antbregante posted...

It's really a complex situation that goes beyond "Grr, fisherman racist." Well I definitely don't approve of the tactics used by the fisherman they have legitimate concerns about their livelihood. They have a fishing season for a reason. That's when the lobsters are more mature and as such they are larger. So fishing off season means they need to catch more of them and they are a finite resource. So now there is two groups lobster fishing as well and eventually the area is gonna be over fished and there will be no lobsters. Then the non=native fisherman and the native fisherman will both be out of luck.

The non-native fishermen vastly outnumber the native fishermen. Native fishing will not make a significant impact on lobster stocks. Furthermore, native groups are almost exclusively the ones taking part in the annual seal hunt, which has a much greater positive impact on lobster stocks than native fishing has a negative impact.

The treaties are law. Harvesting rights were one of the few good things native people got from the treaties. The non-native fishermen need to gain a better historical understanding of this issue.

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faramir77 posted...

The treaties are law.

This is true.

Technically speaking, if treaty people were so inclined, would be permitted to use warfare... even nuclear weapons (hyperbole) to defend their assets just like any other nation against any other aggressor.

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Crazy how overfishing is only a concern when white people aren't allowed to do it

These natives make up like 1% of fished lobster, if that

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Antbregante posted...

It's really a complex situation that goes beyond "Grr, fisherman racist." Well I definitely don't approve of the tactics used by the fisherman they have legitimate concerns about their livelihood. They have a fishing season for a reason. That's when the lobsters are more mature and as such they are larger. So fishing off season means they need to catch more of them and they are a finite resource. So now there is two groups lobster fishing as well and eventually the area is gonna be over fished and there will be no lobsters. Then the non=native fisherman and the native fisherman will both be out of luck.

Conservation is being used as a pretense for this, but it's obviously nonsense to anyone that actually considers the facts. The natives in question had something like 250 total traps. The commercial lobster fishery has permits for a couple hundred thousand. The lobster being fished by the natives is not enough to make an appreciable dent in available lobster stock, nor even in the bottom line of the commercial fisheries. Also, if conservation was actually a concern, they lost any right to make that argument when they destroyed several thousand pounds of already-fished lobster.

Furthermore, even if the Mi'kmaq fishery were significantly impacting the commercial one, that is their legal right, and it's the commercial fishery that is legally obligated to suffer that loss however they need to in order to uphold their end of the treaty. That won't happen, because the treaty specifies a "moderate livelihood" (i.e. you can make a living doing it, but you won't get rich any time soon) and that precludes the off-season native fishery from growing into a serious competitor, but it's still what the government is legally required to enforce in exchange for using the land.

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Blightzkrieg posted...

Crazy how overfishing is only a concern when white people aren't allowed to do it

These natives make up like 1% of fished lobster, if that

It was a concern before hence the lobster season. There are 10 native boats to 67 non-natives. If the natives fish during the lobster season and the off season that will be the equivalent of 20 boats. Not sure if they will want to be on the waters when the other fisherman are there or not. I don't know how much of an impact this all will have on the fisheries sustainability but I'm sure some impact will be felt. I'm not arguing one way or the other but I don't think the things is 100% about race.(Admittedly I'm sure there are some racists among the fisherman)

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adjl posted...

Conservation is being used as a pretense for this, but it's obviously nonsense to anyone that actually considers the facts. The natives in question had something like 250 total traps. The commercial lobster fishery has permits for a couple hundred thousand. The lobster being fished by the natives is not enough to make an appreciable dent in available lobster stock, nor even in the bottom line of the commercial fisheries. Also, if conservation was actually a concern, they lost any right to make that argument when they destroyed several thousand pounds of already-fished lobster.

Furthermore, even if the Mi'kmaq fishery were significantly impacting the commercial one, that is their legal right, and it's the commercial fishery that is legally obligated to suffer that loss however they need to in order to uphold their end of the treaty. That won't happen, because the treaty specifies a "moderate livelihood" (i.e. you can make a living doing it, but you won't get rich any time soon) and that precludes the off-season native fishery from growing into a serious competitor, but it's still what the government is legally required to enforce in exchange for using the land.

So basically they'd be legally able to completely deplete the supply of lobsters ensuring no more lobster seasons occur there? Sounds like a lousy law.


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Zeus posted...

So basically they'd be legally able to completely deplete the supply of lobsters ensuring no more lobster seasons occur there? Sounds like a lousy law.

Maybe but the way to protest a law isn't to burn down buildings and shoot flares at innocent people doing what the law allows them to do.

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Zeus posted...

So basically they'd be legally able to completely deplete the supply of lobsters ensuring no more lobster seasons occur there?

adjl posted...

That won't happen, because the treaty specifies a "moderate livelihood" (i.e. you can make a living doing it, but you won't get rich any time soon)

Reading is fun!

Zeus posted...

Sounds like a lousy law.

It's a treaty. They've been granted that right in exchange for use of their land. I think most people would agree that a little subsistence-level lobster fishing is a reasonable price to pay for the entirety of Nova Scotia. Actually, I think most people would agree that the natives got utterly ripped off by that deal, but as you say, it's a lousy law, and that's very much par for the colonial course.

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Correction: I previously stated that the commercial fishery has a couple hundred thousand traps. That was a mistake, the actual number is approximately 390,000. The figure of 250 Mi'kmaq traps is still correct.

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Zeus posted...

So basically they'd be legally able to completely deplete the supply of lobsters ensuring no more lobster seasons occur there? Sounds like a lousy law.

Wait until you find out that, in return the native people were driven from their land and systematically had their culture destroyed by a colonial power.

Also, there's no way in hell that they'd deplete the supply on their own.

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Lokarin posted...

Because the natives are fishing lobster out of season... which they are allowed to do anyways

Are they allowed to do that anywhere or just on their land? Or is it on their land?

I know they dont pay taxes if they work on the rez, and they can hunt whenever, but Im not sure if thats also limited to the rez.

Zeus posted...

So basically they'd be legally able to completely deplete the supply of lobsters ensuring no more lobster seasons occur there? Sounds like a lousy law.

Im pretty sure Japan doesnt have any legal requirements for fishing.

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Lokarin posted...

Because the natives are fishing lobster out of season... which they are allowed to do anyways

They're fishing out of season with big fuck off vessels, they're profiting off it. I doubt they're allowed to fish out of season so they can strip harvest the sea; the rule needs to change.
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faramir77 posted...

I worry that the ignorance of so many Canadians will lead to us being in a Donald Trump situation eventually.

That cant happen because Ontario and Quebec control the elections. Although it wouldnt necessarily be a bad thing. You guys would still have oil and not be looking at having to implement a PST and paying for healthcare.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

They're fishing out of season with big fuck off vessels, they're profiting off it. I doubt they're allowed to fish out of season so they can strip harvest the sea; the rule needs to change.

They can basically do whatever they want if its on their land. Im just not sure if where this is happening is on a rez.

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Not surprised to see the usuals in here defending racist whites for going after minorities

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OrangeDawn posted...

Not surprised to see the usuals in here defending racist whites for going after minorities

Dude, it's complaining about racial preferential treatment.
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First Nations people have been terrorized by Canadians and had their culture systemically wiped out but yeah, them fishing at 0.064% of the capacity out of season so the rest of Canada can fish there the rest of the season is just waaaaay too much special treatment

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You know a good deal of these fucks think natives should be thankful towards us for not genociding them completely. They don't even understand what a treaty is.

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Actual quote from the RCMP spokesperson: "We don't see this as a police issue, but we understand both sides." They've literally watched people commit unambiguous acts of assault and vandalism, there have been tens - if not hundreds - of thousands of dollars in obviously criminal damages, but it's "not a police issue." Yep.

Meanwhile, if the situations were reversed and you had a couple hundred natives protesting like this, the crowd would be massacred within minutes of the first stone being thrown.

faramir77 posted...

Also, there's no way in hell that they'd deplete the supply on their own.

Pretty much. The Mi'kmaq have had a sustainable lobster fishery since before white people even knew what lobster was. Despite the government's best efforts, that culture hasn't been completely eradicated, even if we consider the simple practical reality of how few traps they're setting.

zebatov posted...

Are they allowed to do that anywhere or just on their land? Or is it on their land?

I know they dont pay taxes if they work on the rez, and they can hunt whenever, but Im not sure if thats also limited to the rez.

The treaty specifies that Mi'kmaq are allowed to fish for a "moderate livelihood" anywhere in the province without restrictions. Really, it's all "their land" in some sense, since the whole thing is unceded, but that's largely irrelevant here. I'm guessing standard trespassing rules still apply that prevent them from hunting/fishing on private property, but I believe anything that's public land (including the ocean) is fair game.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

they're profiting off it.

The treaty allows for a moderate livelihood. They're well within their rights to profit off of it. It's only if they were to operate on a larger, commercial scale that they'd be doing anything wrong.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

I doubt they're allowed to fish out of season so they can strip harvest the sea;

They're operating 250 traps, compared to the 390,000 operated by the commercial fishery. They're not "strip harvesting the sea." That's ridiculous, paranoid pearl-clutching.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

the rule needs to change.

I mean, you're welcome to try renegotiating a treaty in which we get the entire goddamn province in exchange for a pretty trivial amount of hunting/fishing, but I have a feeling you won't get quite such favourable terms now as 270 years ago. Native or otherwise, people are generally a lot more legally literate now than they were then, and I suspect the Mi'kmaq wouldn't be quite so content with being utterly shafted this time around.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Dude, it's complaining about racial preferential treatment.

It's very much not racial preferential treatment. It's a contract between sovereign nations that dictates the terms under which each nation is allowed to use the land. If you want to talk about racial preferential treatment, compare how the violent mob is being treated by police here (half a dozen RCMP deployed to watch them commit theft, vandalism, and arson while they twiddle their thumbs) to how peaceful natives are treated whenever they try to protest their land (as in, land that's been specifically allocated as being part of their current territory, not any considerations of ancestral territory) being endangered and/or outright poisoned by the oil industry (basically Tank Man with more feathers).

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dont argue with zues and kyuubi, they probably think its only fair that the natives gave us all their land, it would be racist if they kept it and the whites had nothing

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They also probably are fans of Starlight tours.

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Look at the righteous Americans itt sleeping well at night because they recently gave Native Americans one day of acknowledgement.

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TheSlinja posted...

dont argue with zues and kyuubi, they probably think its only fair that the natives gave us all their land, it would be racist if they kept it and the whites had nothing

I know I've personally seen Kyuubi explicitly expressing pride in Britain's colonial history. He's generally the sort of person to say "you're all just lucky we haven't exterminated you stop whining and eat your gruel." Notions like honouring treaties and not committing cultural genocide are likely a bit beyond him.

Veedrock- posted...

Look at the righteous Americans itt sleeping well at night because they recently gave Native Americans one day of acknowledgement.

For bonus points, October is officialy Mi'kmaq history month. You can see how well that's going.

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I am kind of glad that attention has been brought to all this (not that it will make the RCMP get off their fat assed). A couple weeks ago I saw a story on this and the comments were almost universally anti-native.

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Blightzkrieg posted...

A couple weeks ago I saw a story on this and the comments were almost universally anti-native.

I saw a post linked a while back of a guy suggesting that we should be petitioning the federal government to reopen the residential schools. The whole thing has really brought out some of the shittiest examples of subhuman slime Canada has to offer.

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Stories like this are always kind of weird because growing up in the city I had basically zero interaction with native Canadian populations.

And then I interact with or hear about people who absolutely fucking despise native Canadians with a shocking degree of openness. It really makes me feel sheltered.

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adjl posted...

I know I've personally seen Kyuubi explicitly expressing pride in Britain's colonial history. He's generally the sort of person to say "you're all just lucky we haven't exterminated you stop whining and eat your gruel." Notions like honouring treaties and not committing cultural genocide are likely a bit beyond him.

Correction: "You're lucky you weren't exterminated, so stop your whining and play on the same rules as everybody else."

When it's your land by pity, there's not much to stand on.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Correction: "You're lucky you weren't exterminated, so stop your whining and play on the same rules as everybody else."

They are playing on the same rules as everyone else. Everyone else is also expected to adhere to the terms of the treaty.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

When it's your land by legal contract, there's plenty to stand on.

FTFY.

Blightzkrieg posted...

Stories like this are always kind of weird because growing up in the city I had basically zero interaction with native Canadian populations.

And then I interact with or hear about people who absolutely fucking despise native Canadians with a shocking degree of openness. It really makes me feel sheltered.

Yep. It's really quite disturbing how much vitriol people have toward natives, especially in a country that so often prides itself on not being as racist as Americans. Canadians have no place being smug in that regard.

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adjl posted...

They are playing on the same rules as everyone else.

They fish out of season, that's not the same rules.

adjl posted...

FTFY.

A contract between nations has only as much validity as it can enforce.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

They fish out of season, that's not the same rules.

And you eat different sandwiches from your neighbour. Not every difference between populations is meaningful in every context. The notion of a fishing season means nothing in the context of Mi'kmaq land use because the land use agreement explicitly specifies that.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

A contract between nations has only as much validity as it can enforce.

Civilized nations honour their contracts without relying on the threat of genocide. You would do well to learn from them if you want to function in modern society.

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adjl posted...

And you eat different sandwiches from your neighbour.

By choice.

adjl posted...

The notion of a fishing season means nothing in the context of Mi'kmaq land use because the land use agreement explicitly specifies that.

Fuck the agreement.

adjl posted...

Civilized nations honour their contracts without relying on the threat of genocide. You would do well to learn from them if you want to function in modern society.

Civilized nations honour their contracts with people who play in good faith. Setting up a fishing company to exploit the agreement is just as bad as the EU trying to force servitude on the Independent Britain. Fuck the EU and fuck natives taking the piss.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Civilized nations honour their contracts with people who play in good faith. Setting up a fishing company to exploit the agreement is just as bad as the EU trying to force servitude on the Independent Britain. Fuck the EU and fuck natives taking the piss.

The fuck are you on about? That's the intended purpose of the agreement. They have free hunting and fishing rights, the goal of that is super clear. Why does it bother you that those people are fishing, legally, even if it's out of season. It's having no negative impact on the normal fishing business so who gives a fuck other than clearly racist bastards looking for an excuse?

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YoukaiSlayer posted...

The fuck are you on about? That's the intended purpose of the agreement. They have free hunting and fishing rights, the goal of that is super clear. Why does it bother you that those people are fishing, legally, even if it's out of season. It's having no negative impact on the normal fishing business so who gives a fuck other than clearly racist bastards looking for an excuse?

This is like 90% of kyuubi posts

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Kyuubi4269 posted...

By choice.

Okay.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

f*** the agreement.

That's not how contracts work, I'm afraid.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Setting up a fishing company to exploit the agreement

Is well within the confines of "moderate livelihood." If we have a contract that allows me to pick six apples from your yard, and I pick six apples from your yard, I am not remotely acting in bad faith, nor is "exploiting the agreement" a reasonable way to frame it. Again, the fishermen in question had less than a thousandth of the traps that comprise the actual commercial fishery. The lobster fishery is not so delicate that a 0.07% increase in harvesting will cause it to collapse (especially by a people who have fished it sustainably for millennia), nor is the industry so fragile that a 0.07% loss in revenue can be seen as the end of the world. Even if it were, that's still on them to account for because this treaty long predates any of their companies and business plans, and any failure to account for it can be seen purely as them failing to do their homework.

This is not the first time this has come into question. This issue has been brought before the Supreme Court of Canada on many different occasions since the treaty was written 250 years ago, and each time it has been affirmed that fishing out of season is fair game. There are currently calls on Ottawa to intervene in this matter by more explicitly defining "moderate livelihood" so that there's a more concrete basis upon which to tell the racist skidmarks to shove it up their portholes, which I think is a good idea, but I can guarantee that the end result will not be to renege completely on the central tenet of allowing them Mi'kmaq to fish out of season.

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Kyuubi is seriously in here advocating that Canada commit a genocide against the Mikmaq people so white people can catch more lobster.

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correction, he isnt advocating for genocide, he is simply claiming that they should be greatful that they weren't genocided, and that we took pity on them

I miss when trolls had gimmicks other than "be a piece of shit"

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TheSlinja posted...

correction, he isnt advocating for genocide, he is simply claiming that they should be greatful that they weren't genocided, and that we took pity on them

I miss when trolls had gimmicks other than "be a piece of shit"

Thing is, according to international law we did and still are genociding them... I think in terms of percentages (as in, how close to extinction as genocide gets) we're among the worst in history

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