Current Events > Twenty-nine German police suspended for sharing pictures of Hitler

(+) Yeah! (+)

One_Day_Remains posted...

Unfair sure doesn't know when to give up.

Probably because I am 100% right and just pointing out basic facts

SO much so no one can even respond to them as they would be literally arguing that I invented and wrote the German Consitution

spikethedevil posted...

@Choco What are the laws on it under interest? As unfair is determined to argue against a guy from Germany lol.

Being from Germany doesn't mean you can't be wrong. Half of America supports Trump.

Choco is just too embarrased to confess he didn't know his own nation's consitution

Hornezz posted...

I called you a liar because you are lying.

It's illegal to fly Nazi flags and spread Nazi propaganda, it's by no means illegal to talk about them.
Also, I currently live about a 15 min drive away from Germany and have spent plenty of time there, some of which was spent talking about WW2 and Nazis.

I've lived in Germany too.

"I did stuff there" doesn't mean it's not illegal, 1/3rd of Americans have smoked pot and what was the context of your conversation? Was it educational?

The point is that the authorities could arrest you for it if they felt it was propaganda. You yourself handwave "Oh only if it's propaganda" but they have the right to determine anything outside of a educational context can be.

This is an undeniable fact.

No I'm not claiming it's big brother and German cops will kick down your door because you and mom made full of Rudolf Hess's trip to England.

But there are no protections on free speech related to the Nazis in Germany and all of the things I said are illegal. You can't joke about Nazis or promote them in any non education media. If you made a Nazi Chatroom in Germany and started posting Nazi memes, you would be breaking the law.
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So you have lived in the UK and Germany? Which parts of each did you live in? Which country in the UK?

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He claims he was working or vacationing in the UK when the pandemic hit so he's stuck over there. It's flagrant bullshit for sure.

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Im interested in which country and city also flights are still going so he wouldnt even be stuck lol. @UnfairRepresent

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There you go lying again.

I do wonder, what do you get out of this? Do you enjoy it when people think of you as ignorant? Like a masochism thing or something?

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spikethedevil posted...

@Choco What are the laws on it under interest? As unfair is determined to argue against a guy from Germany lol.

now i'm no law expert but basically
nazi symbols like swastikas are illegal unless used for purposes of education or art (video games had to be censored because they weren't considered art)
it's also illegal to deny the holocaust or do stuff like nazi salutes
talking about nazis and hitler is not illegal at all; some ppl online have the impression that germans don't make nazi jokes and that isn't true at all. jokes about nazis and hitler are definitely a thing.
there is a nazi party (i don't mean the far-right AfD, but the literal neonazi NPD) and there were several attempts to ban it. i don't know much about the previous attempts but the latest one was rejected because the party isn't relevant enough to pose a threat to the constitutional order.

UR's most egregiously wrong statement was "The theory is that if eveyone ignores the Nazis all the time they will go away" which is a direct contradiction of his first point anyway.

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Cool thanks for the info. ^5

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Endgame posted...

As there shouldn't be.

Language that incites violence is already illegal in America. You can't shout "FIRE!" in a crowded theater. So why the fuck is it okay to promote genocide?

Lock up all the fucking Nazis.

I get that this is a gray area but I'm a big pro-free speech guy and I think the rise of Right-Wingers in Germany has shown that the approach doesn't work.

Just telling people that they are not allowed to talk about this stuff and not allowed to have their opinions just makes them feel validated, like they are cool freedom fighters standing up against authority

I think the better system is free speech but just have a society where bad ideas are constantly challenged.

If a guy denies the holocaust or claims some idiotic racist claptrap tell him how he's wrong. Removing him from your sight just makes him convince 12 people behind your back.

This is why the first thing all religions try to do is make talking about them/criticizing them illegal. Because they know they can't stand up to scruntity.

I mean look at how Daryl Davis and Wade Watts took down KKK Chapters:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChfgiMGNxfo

I mean I get the argument, as you say you can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre as people might die or get hurt. So how can you allow "hateful rhetoric" that will lead to people dying or getting hurt?

I see the point. I just feel when the Government decides what opinions are views are "acceptable." then that's a dangerous path to go down. I think yelling "FIRE!" when there is no fire to a crowd isn't an opinion, it's more like a con.

Saying some dumb right wing bullshit isn't the same thing in my eyes. I think the solution is to challenge the rhetoric not to try to silence the people saying it as you never truly can.

Hornezz posted...

There you go lying again.

What single thing have I lied about? I've literally posted the German Consitution directly and cited like a dozen examples and you have ignored every one

I do wonder, what do you get out of this? Do you enjoy it when people think of you as ignorant? Like a masochism thing or something?

Right now slight amusement as you think insulting me 36 times will distract anyone from the fact you haven't actually made a point and just ignored everything I said.
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It's completely backfired as a stratergy though because the amount of far-right nutbags in Germany has shot up over the past few generations

Also I'd argue that since the rise of far-right peeps is (ironically) an international phenomenon it's hard to argue that one country in particular did X thing wrong when the same thing happened in other countries without doing X thing.

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You know unfairrepresent is mad and backed into a corner when he starts busting out his big guns (that wade watts guy)
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spikethedevil posted...

Im interested in which country and city also flights are still going so he wouldnt even be stuck lol. @UnfairRepresent

So where in the UK are you? And youre literally ignoring the guy from Germany lol.

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imagine responding to literal UR

btw this isn't even the first time he's tried arguing with people who lived in the country of interest, he's also tried doing that with @ssjevot with Japan as well

Choco posted...

UR's most egregiously wrong statement was "The theory is that if eveyone ignores the Nazis all the time they will go away" which is a direct contradiction of his first point anyway.

Lol

Okay then so why did they ban all Nazi discussion or promotion outside of educational context if it wasn't an attempt to stop the rise of Nazi-ism and the far right in the future?

You're now claiming they did it to make them stick around? That doesn't even make any sense. Just so you can pretend I'm lying about your own constitution (that I posted and I notice you're ignoring)
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Where did/do you live in the UK?

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Arrest them all.

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Choco posted...

Also I'd argue that since the rise of far-right peeps is (ironically) an international phenomenon it's hard to argue that one country in particular did X thing wrong when the same thing happened in other countries without doing X thing.

Eh that's fair argument that you can't really quantify either way but the point is that making it illegal hasn't stopped anyone from doing it. It's just made people do it in the shadows which IMO is more dangerous.

You can reason with a man who is pointing a gun at you.

You can't reason with the sniper that you don't know is pointing a gun at you.

Making Nazi Discussion outside of educational contexts illegal does not hinder the creation of the new Far Right, in fact it empowers it. I don't think the rise of right wing idiots elsewhere changes that.

Hell the new far right groups in Germany probably love the far right nuts in other nations because they can actually talk to them about all this shit that's illegal to say in Germany. Which to the nutbags must feel so refreshing and only make them bolder and grant a feeling of persecution.
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Choco posted...

nazi symbols like swastikas are illegal unless used for purposes of education or art (video games had to be censored because they weren't considered art)

This is something I'm genuinely curious about. And I swear it's not a "whataboutism"

For Eastern religions that use the original swastika design, are they exempt from this? Does the government crack down on their usages? Or is it something that has never been an issue?

I know Germany isn't as lax as the US is regarding Freedom of Religion. I'm not comparing the two at all but I know Scientology is illegal in Germany right? So I wasn't sure how that translated to religions that aren't cults.


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The far east version is slightly different isnt it?

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spikethedevil posted...

The far east version is slightly different isnt it?

It's mirrored

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spikethedevil posted...

The far east version is slightly different isnt it?

It is. It's horizontal while the Nazi one is diagonal.

But I wasn't sure how far the government went in regards to swastikas. Like does it just outlaw the Nazi one or do they go for the religious ones as well.

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Fair enough.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

What single thing have I lied about? I've literally posted the German Consitution directly and cited like a dozen examples and you have ignored every one

You keep saying talking or joking about Nazis is forbidden in Germany. It isn't. The law you cited doesn't support your claim at all.

You're spreading some weirdass American right wing meme, which is a blatant lie.


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Choco posted...

just a prank bro i was only pretending to be a nazi calling for refugee genocide

they even signed off emails with a gang name that implied they were continuing the work of a far-right extremist gang who killed 10 people. It'd be like if some racist dipshits sent some internal emails in the US and signed each email with "KKK V2".

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He still wont say where he lived in the UK.

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Hornezz posted...

You keep saying talking or joking about Nazis is forbidden in Germany. It isn't. The law you cited doesn't support your claim at all.

86 StGB Dissemination of Means of Propaganda of Unconstitutional Organizations

Whoever domestically disseminates or produces, stocks, imports or exports or makes publicly accessible through data storage media for dissemination domestically or abroad, means of propaganda:
of a party which has been declared to be unconstitutional by the Federal Constitutional Court or a party or organization, as to which it has been determined, no longer subject to appeal, that it is a substitute organization of such a party;
...
means of propaganda, the contents of which are intended to further the aims of a former National Socialist organization,
shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.

That's what they mean by "Iconography"

Anything at all that is "Propaganda that furthers the aims of the Nazis or any other group which is akin to the Nazis" is illegal.

If you say "Well talking about the Nazis with a group of like minded people isn't iconography" you're right via the dictionary but wrong via the German Consitution. The police CAN arrest you for "nazi Propaganda" outside of an education context that can just be verbal. This is a fact.

You're spreading some weirdass American right wing meme, which is a blatant lie.

lolwut?

Posting the German Consitution is a right wing meme and a lie?

Okie dokie.

One_Day_Remains posted...

Hey Unfair, protip: Try shutting the fuck up and let the people who are actually from Germany do the talking.

Literally sitting here trying to argue with people that actually live in the country about their own country's laws. What an imbecile.

Cool so every Trumpster is right about America then?

Good to know.

Not like people with agendas are biased or anything

Not like I'm saying anything that wasn't said in this very news article you are responding too.

Guess those reporters weren't German either then.

Hell guess the New Far Right groups in Germany Choco himself can't even pretend don't exist are also right as well then about anything they say involving Germany.

What an inane fallacy.

Are you one of those people who can't watch LAst Week Tonight because John Oliver is British?
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Kastrada posted...

This is something I'm genuinely curious about. And I swear it's not a "whataboutism"

For Eastern religions that use the original swastika design, are they exempt from this? Does the government crack down on their usages? Or is it something that has never been an issue?

I know Germany isn't as lax as the US is regarding Freedom of Religion. I'm not comparing the two at all but I know Scientology is illegal in Germany right? So I wasn't sure how that translated to religions that aren't cults.

i don't know of any instances where this has ever been an issue but i doubt that religions are banned from using their religious swastika.
even the official German version of the Naruto manga kept Neji's swastika tattoo (and comics aren't considered art or at least weren't at the time, so nazi usage would have been censored). So it seems like they're not being completely stupid about what is and isn't allowed.

but you probably shouldn't put a buddhist swastika on a red flag w/ a white circle >_>

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@UnfairRepresent
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look_Who%27s_Back_(film)

This film jokes about Hitler. Is it illegal?


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The police CAN arrest you for "nazi Propaganda" outside of an education context that can just be verbal. This is a fact.

Your reading comprehension is embarrassingly bad. Spreading propaganda isn't the same as 'talking about', 'joking about' or 'bringing it up'.

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Why wont you say where you lived in the UK?

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Hornezz posted...

@UnfairRepresent
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look_Who%27s_Back_(film)

This film jokes about Hitler. Is it illegal?

The Government could have banned it yes.

They tried to stop Valkyrie from being filmed in Germany because of Scientology.

If you're argument with the Consitution is that it's implementation is immensely inconsistent you will get no argument from me or anyone else (except probably Choco)

But it's inconsistency doesn't change its existence. Only that in that case they decided it was educational under Art and therefore okay.
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Hornezz posted...

Your reading comprehension is embarrassingly bad. Spreading propaganda isn't the same as 'talking about', 'joking about' or 'bringing it up'.

Okay quantify the difference?

Because as far as I am aware "Verbally spreading propaganda" has never been quantified and it's not quantified in the German Constitution.

Memeing about Nazis can be considered illegally spreading propaganda by the German authorities interpretation of the Constitution. There are no free speech protections. This is undeniable

Going "Well when it's enforced it's spreading propaganda but when its not enforced you're just bringing it up." about the same thing is doublethink
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Choco posted...

but you probably shouldn't put a buddhist swastika on a red flag w/ a white circle >_>

.....god dammit. Where were you BEFORE I started sewing this Nazi-Buddhist flag?

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Whoa, UR was wrong about something and is refusing to admit it? That seems so unlike him.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odUqwjujE6o

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FlameTurtle posted...

Whoa, UR was wrong about something and is refusing to admit it? That seems so unlike him.

Please tell me what I was wrong about?

The guys who wrote the German Constitution really need to know since I'm just quoting them (and this news article you're responding too, apparently all of us are wrong somehow in a way you cannot specify)
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UnfairRepresent posted...

The Government could have banned it yes.

But they didn't, because it isn't illegal.

Okay quantify the difference?

Nobody ever gets charged for just talking about nazis. Because it isn't illegal. I'm not using any difficult words here, this isn't hard to understand.


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Choco posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odUqwjujE6o

B7 illegal activities

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I live in Germany and woooow at this topic.

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Hornezz posted...

But they didn't, because it isn't illegal.

Yeah because they decided it was art and therefore protected.

What's your point?

Hornezz posted...

Nobody ever gets charged for just talking about nazis. Because it isn't illegal. I'm not using any difficult words here, this isn't hard to understand.

1. That's not quantified.

2. Yes they do. You can (and people have been) arrested for talking about Nazis.

See you're using doublethink here and ironically demonstrating one of the flaws with the Consitution .

Going "Well if they get arrested for it then it's propaganda, but if they're not arrested for it, then that's fine."

According to you if that film was banned, it would be propaganda and therefore okay to ban.

I think it's well intentioned but I don't think trusting big government to curb free speech to prevent facism is the best idea.

The most idiotic ideas need to be squashed with good ideas. Not silence. Otherwise they fester.

Why do you think Trump wants to censor the media?
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UnfairRepresent posted...

The Government could have banned it yes.

They tried to stop Valkyrie from being filmed in Germany because of Scientology.

If you're argument with the Consitution is that it's implementation is immensely inconsistent you will get no argument from me or anyone else (except probably Choco)

But it's inconsistency doesn't change its existence. Only that in that case they decided it was educational under Art and therefore okay.

So they tried to stop a movie about Nazi's because of Scientology. Your words.

Not because of Nazi's, but because of Tom Cruise.

So then you argument would be centered around the religious freedom part of the constitution and not the Nazi part of the constitution. But you are bringing up the Nazi aspect because of the "educational under art" part.

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Kastrada posted...

So they tried to stop a movie about Nazi's because of Scientology. Your words.

Not because of Nazi's, but because of Tom Cruise.

So then you argument would be centered around the religious freedom part of the constitution and not the Nazi part of the constitution. But you are bringing up the Nazi aspect because of the "educational under art" part.

He is right about that. I remember hearing about about it and the quote from a German publication said their reasoning was tom cruise being part of "the scientology cult"
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Machete posted...

He is right about that. I remember hearing about about it and the quote from a German publication said their reasoning was tom cruise being part of "the scientology cult"

Oh he is right for sure. They tried to ban Chick Corea from playing in Germany as well.

My issue is that the constitutional argument is bringing in something unrelated to argument his original point.

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Machete posted...

He is right about that.

I haven't been wrong about a single thing in the topic.

Notice how not one person can actually say what I was wrong about or respond to the German Constitution or the article itself.

They just say I'm wrong and insult me or run off. No actual point. Apparently I, the reporters who made this article and the guys who wrote the German Consitution itself are all liars in the largest conspiracy in the history of mankind a near century in the making.... Just to win an internet argument against some random guys.

Hell the whole "How can you say this guy (who is too afraid to even mention the Constitution) is wrong. He's FROM Germany. IF you're from a country youcan;t be wrong about it. Just look at Donald Trump and his 50 million supporters who are right about everything in America. No one ever lies or is wrong about things in their own country." as an apparent argument alone in place of any counter points is fucking hilarious.
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Yeah I don't care about any of that. The main takeaway is that Germany was correct in labeling scientology as a cult.
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i wish i could keep arguing but it's illegal

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Machete posted...

Yeah I don't care about any of that. The main takeaway is that Germany was correct in labeling scientology as a cult.

Well you'll get no argument from me.

Then again what's the difference between a cult and a religion beyond size?
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Choco posted...

i wish i could keep arguing but it's illegal

Lmao

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Yeah because they decided it was art and therefore protected.

Do you have a source for this decision the German government made?

2. Yes they do. You can (and people have been) arrested for talking about Nazis.

Examples please. Who are the people who were charged and convicted for just bringing up nazis?

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Hornezz posted...

Do you have a source for this decision the German government made?

The film was released and

outside the contexts of "art or science, research or teaching"

86 StGB Dissemination of Means of Propaganda of Unconstitutional Organizations

Whoever domestically disseminates or produces, stocks, imports or exports or makes publicly accessible through data storage media for dissemination domestically or abroad, means of propaganda:
of a party which has been declared to be unconstitutional by the Federal Constitutional Court or a party or organization, as to which it has been determined, no longer subject to appeal, that it is a substitute organization of such a party;
...
means of propaganda, the contents of which are intended to further the aims of a former National Socialist organization,
shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.

Either the German Goverment decided it was art or the film slipped under their radar. Either is possible. I assume the former.

Hornezz posted...

Examples please. Who are the people who were charged and convicted for just bringing up nazis?

See you're using doublethink again. You'll just declare any example as "actually that's propaganda" because they were arrested for it. Also sneaky adding "And convicted" in there.

You quantify it first (something you refuse to do and the constitution does not do) and when you do that I'll post examples.
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This is fucking pathetic

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