Board 8 > The Last Guardian is really, really bad (no spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

The camera is possibly the worst camera in any game I've played on an HD console. There's so many things wrong with it. First, they try to force Trico down so many cramped hallways that they really weren't making it easy for themselves to get the camera right. Second, even when you're in a big open area, the camera zooms in WAY too far on Trico and he takes up most of the screen, so you still can't see much around you. Third, the camera legit moves on its own sometimes. You'll walk forward while Trico is behind you and the camera will fight you to turn 180 degrees and look back at Trico. How did they mess it up this bad?

The feel of the game is really poor too. Why does the little boy have noodle legs? Why does Trico take so long to respond (and in some cases doesn't respond at all)? Why is it so hard to climb up Trico? Why is it so hard to push a box in a straight line?

Then there's the gameplay design. I've played Shadow of the Colossus. That game had awesome gameplay (although the feel and controls were a tad clunky there too). This game shits the bed on gameplay. The puzzles are typically so easy that they only serve to make the game longer, but honestly I don't want them to be any harder cause then I'd have to run around rooms with these shitty controls some more trying to figure things out. Then there's the enemy encounters which also add no challenge and only make the game longer. A suit of armor comes and grabs me and barely moves for a couple seconds before I break free and run away. Oooooh scary.

This would all be maybe excusable if I had a good reason for putting up with it, but so far, I still don't have much of a clue of what's going on. Trico is such a pain in the ass that I don't really like him, so the connection isn't driving me through the game. Other than that, there isn't much context and I'm already halfway? through the game. There's another dogbird thing, and I'm only slightly intrigued as to what those stained glass eyes are all about.

I hear the ending is pretty good, but it's gonna have to be amazing to make up for how bad its been so far.

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No one else play this game?

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I feel like this game just came and went without anyone really caring

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I didn't like Shadow of the Colossus much and this sounds like it's just taking all the problems I already had with that game and turning them up to 11.
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I couldn't even finish it, Trico was cute but that's not enough for a game to keep me interested.

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https://youtu.be/V351kmhfJDA

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That's a shame, I love it

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pyresword posted...

I didn't like Shadow of the Colossus much and this sounds like it's just taking all the problems I already had with that game and turning them up to 11.

What problems did you have with SotC?

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Johnbobb posted...

https://youtu.be/V351kmhfJDA

lmao i wish trico would do this to me but it's scripted so i can stop playing

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I actually loathed this game for maybe about half of my time with it and then somehow everything fell into place. Granted, it was in a really specific way that I don't know many people will relate to.

The camera, controls, AI and everything are all absolutely abominable, but in learning to manipulate the game (and especially Trico) better and better, I actually did end up feeling like I was getting closer to Trico. Like our bond was growing stronger and he was listening to me more often - even though all that was really happening was I was learning how to work around his janky ass.

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I have no doubt that the game probably isn't great, but also every Solio topic I've seen in 2020 is [insert any game ever] is bad so naturally it makes me want to try it.

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ninkendo posted...

I have no doubt that the game probably isn't great, but also every Solio topic I've seen in 2020 is [insert any game ever] is bad so naturally it makes me want to try it.

It's easier to talk about things I don't like than things I do like lol. I need someone to share in my pain

Nioh 2 was fantastic though. That's the game I played before The Last Guardian and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

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Hi Solio, feels like I haven't seen you around in ages man

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In fact, here's all the games I've played this year for a scope of what I enjoyed:

Fantastic:
The Last of Us Part II (9.5/10)
Nioh 2 (9/10)
Control (8.5/10)
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Good:
Call of Duty WWII (7/10)
Bloodborne (6.5/10)
Yakuza 0 (6.5/10)
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Mediocre:
Borderlands 3 (5/10)
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Bad:
Yakuza Kiwami (3/10)
Goat Simulator (meme/10)

No rating:
Call of Duty MW2 Campaign Remastered (Still a great game, but not really different from the original).
Everybody's Golf (I love HSG. Yet I understand the flaws with how the single player is set up in this version).
Tekken 7 (I'm a competitive SoulCalibur player so I can't judge this game without comparing the two).
The Witness (It's not my thing, but I'm sure others would appreciate it for what it is)

The Last Guardian would be sitting right around Yakuza Kiwami lmao. I finally got some kind of story progression last night but it came too late.

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Pokalicious posted...

Hi Solio, feels like I haven't seen you around in ages man

Hi Poka

I don't post except to talk about the games I played recently, but I still look around every now and then. Hope you're doing well.

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Xiahou Shake posted...

I actually loathed this game for maybe about half of my time with it and then somehow everything fell into place. Granted, it was in a really specific way that I don't know many people will relate to.

The camera, controls, AI and everything are all absolutely abominable, but in learning to manipulate the game (and especially Trico) better and better, I actually did end up feeling like I was getting closer to Trico. Like our bond was growing stronger and he was listening to me more often - even though all that was really happening was I was learning how to work around his janky ass.

pretty sure that was the goal

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Whats your no spoilers reason for Yakuza sucking?

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Solioxrz362 posted...

What problems did you have with SotC?

Not great controls.

Gameplay that is deliberately clunky and not fun due to a misguided attempt at immersion.

I'm aware there is reasonable room for disagreement on the artistic value of minimalism and the way this story leaves things up to the player, but in this extreme form from my perspective the story will always be lazy and totally devoid of substance.
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Webbernet posted...

Whats your no spoilers reason for Yakuza sucking?

The gameplay in Yakuza is terribly designed. The core loop is the fighting, which is loaded with unnecessary artificial depth (mostly useless upgrade trees) and it's not really fun. But then there's a ton of minigames, right? Sometimes the story introduces you to these, sometimes it doesn't, and in most cases, you have very little incentive to actually play them. They don't improve the core loop, they earn money very inefficiently, and some of them are just bad (pocket circuit, catfight arena). Most of them aren't even original, they're just real life games like mahjong and koi koi. So if the minigames are the fun part of the gameplay, why don't I just go play those games instead?

Yakuza 0 was good because the characters were really charming and the story was fun. Plus, it has an awesome minigame with the cabaret club that actually earns money pretty quickly and leads to interesting substories, so I had more of a reason to play that other than "you need it for the platinum".

Yakuza Kiwami had less fun minigames, the story was not very good and had a weak ending, and the mission structure was worse than in Yakuza 0. You could chalk a lot of the problems up to it being a remake of the original PS2 game, but after playing Yakuza 0, it was pretty clear which game did the Yakuza formula better.

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i actually played through to the end, which was mildly interesting considering the lack of story leading up to it.

It was a visually appealing game at times, but the mechanics were awful.

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pyresword posted...

Not great controls.

Gameplay that is deliberately clunky and not fun due to a misguided attempt at immersion.

I'm aware there is reasonable room for disagreement on the artistic value of minimalism and the way this story leaves things up to the player, but in this extreme form from my perspective the story will always be lazy and totally devoid of substance.

I partially agree. I think SotC is a great game but it's a bit overrated. The controls could be better and the story was overrated. I disagree on the gameplay though - almost every colossus had something awesome about it. The 3rd, 5th, 10th, and especially 13th were all incredible experiences even when revisiting the game on PS4.

You're right in your thought that TLG shares the poor controls/camera, but I think they're even worse in TLG. And since there's no cool big enemies to fight with that awesome soundtrack behind you, it's kinda boring too.

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Solioxrz362 posted...

and some of them are just bad (pocket circuit

no

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StealThisSheen posted...

no

Think about it. You win if you pay enough, put up with enough trial-and-error, and get lucky on not having any stabilization issues.

What is fun about a luck-based money sink that takes too much time?

Also it has 0 connection to the core gameplay loop. You get some mildly entertaining substories, but if they weren't in the game, I wouldn't feel like the game was missing something important.

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the "core gameplay loop" of yakuza is "run around the city, beat up random people, help people with their problems and goof around in minigames"

"the game is bad because the game is fighting which is bad fighting. also it has a bunch of other stuff to do which is bad because it isnt the game which is bad fighting"

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NFUN posted...

the "core gameplay loop" of yakuza is "run around the city, beat up random people, help people with their problems and goof around in minigames"

"the game is bad because the game is fighting which is bad fighting. also it has a bunch of other stuff to do which is bad because it isnt the game which is bad fighting"

Yeah. Story and gameplay, ideally, should be tied to each other in some way. The fighting is bad and it's the only thing actually connected to the story. The minigames, for the most part, have no consequences or connection to the story.

In your core gameplay loop, I think running around the city isn't fun, beating up random people isn't fun, and only a few of the minigames are fun. The substories have some fun parts, but they don't make a good game. In Kiwami 1, most of the substories are throwaway distractions. Yakuza 0 does a better there, but you still can't build a strong game solely around the substories.

If the minigames were all good, then maybe they'd get more of a pass for being inconsequential. But look at the minigames:

• RNG poker games (Baccarat, Roulette)
• Poker and blackjack, which I suppose are better than the RNG casino games.
• RNG gambling den games
• Koi-koi, which is less RNG than the other gambling den games
• Rock paper scissors with a catfighting skin (Catfight Arena / Mesuking)
• Hot wheels with RNG elements (Pocket Circuit)
• Mahjong
• Shogi (this is almost inconsequential to the platinum too)
• Pool
• Bowling
• Darts
• Older arcade games
• A skill crane
• A vanilla rhythm game for karaoke
• A more interesting rhythm game for dancing
• A photo booth
• In Yakuza 0, an idle game (Real Estate)
• In Yakuza 0, Cabaret Club Czar

How many of these are full RNG? How many are pre-existing games that you can play without Yakuza? How many add 0 value? In my opinion, Koi-koi, Mahjong, a couple of the arcade games, Cabaret Club Czar, and dancing are the only fun ones. Only two of these are games that I couldn't play without buying Yakuza.

You wouldn't buy GTA to go play the bowling minigame, right? Or RDR to play blackjack and poker?

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"I could do these without buying a video game!" seems like a pretty silly argument. Nobody is buying it to do those things, but it doesn't mean people can't have fun with them or that they shouldn't be included.

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To understand Solio's tastes, just assume that the closer a game is to being a Naughty Dog game in terms of tone, technical fidelity, cinematics, and gameplay, the more he'll like it

This isn't necessarily a bad thing but it's extremely consistent!

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StealThisSheen posted...

"I could do these without buying a video game!" seems like a pretty silly argument. Nobody is buying it to do those things, but it doesn't mean people can't have fun with them or that they shouldn't be included.

That's fair, but considering I thought the rest of the gameplay wasn't fun, I'm not gonna give the game high marks because it has Koi-koi and Mahjong in it. I rate Yakuza Kiwami low because it had a weak main story, tons of throwaway substories, and boring combat. The minigames were worse in Kiwami than in 0, but even if it had more interesting minigames, that wouldn't save the rest of the game.

Please remember I think Yakuza 0 is a good game. It had a good main story, good characters, decent substories, and a unique minigame that was both fun and tied back to Majima's storyline. But I didn't think it was great because it also had boring combat and lots of bad or pointless minigames to make the gameplay overall subpar.

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I always viewed The Last Guardian as a game all about its aesthetics and story rather than the core gameplay. The last 1/4th or so of the game is magnificent and I was definitely teary eyed at parts of the ending.

Honestly the ending is one of my favorite moments of this generation for me but I still probably couldn't bring myself to give the game anything over an 8. All of your complaints are valid and it can get incredibly tedious for sure. The story is so good though, easily the best game narrative-wise from Team Ico.

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KamikazePotato posted...

To understand Solio's tastes, just assume that the closer a game is to being a Naughty Dog game in terms of tone, technical fidelity, cinematics, and gameplay, the more he'll like it

This isn't necessarily a bad thing but it's extremely consistent!

You're mostly right! Naughty Dog has made quite a few of my favorite games since the PS3/360 era. The Last of Us (#1) and Uncharted 4 hold spots in my top 5 games. God of War PS4 is my #2 and that's pretty close in the aspects you mentioned (save gameplay) to a Naughty Dog game. I really appreciate the stories that they tell, and I think the high production value of these games help tell those stories. It's much easier to buy into a character's arc when you can see the emotion written on their face so clearly and the VA is so expressive.

However, I'll challenge you on the gameplay aspect of this. Outside of TLOU multiplayer, none of the ND games really wow me on gameplay. It's usually good, very polished, but not my favorite. Some of the games that have my favorite gameplay are Call of Juarez: Gunslinger, Furi, Soul Calibur VI, Ratchet & Clank, and Horizon. I'd give nods to Papers Please, Portal, and Mirror's Edge (especially Catalyst) too. While these aren't the top of the top, they're close for how unique and fun they are.

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StartTheMachine posted...

I always viewed The Last Guardian as a game all about its aesthetics and story rather than the core gameplay. The last 1/4th or so of the game is magnificent and I was definitely teary eyed at parts of the ending.

Honestly the ending is one of my favorite moments of this generation for me but I still probably couldn't bring myself to give the game anything over an 8. All of your complaints are valid and it can get incredibly tedious for sure. The story is so good though, easily the best game narrative-wise from Team Ico.

I am pushing myself to finish it because the ending is the only part of the game I've seen be universally praised. I don't want to say it's definitively bad when I haven't gotten to the best part, it's just that I think what I've played so far has been bad.

I would've liked to have gotten some of the story after Trico eats you the first time. I was so glad to finally get a bit of context after Trico ate me the second time, and I'm really wondering why I didn't get part of that earlier.

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I got I think maybe halfway through the game and just got fed up with Trico not responding to me. But I still own it and I believe I still have BOTH the Shadow Of The Colossus remake on PS4 AND the Ico/Shadow Of The Colossus HD collection for PS3. So maybe I'll give the whole series a whirl one of these years. Though with the way I've been playing games lately (get on to finish Maneater, instead I play Broforce for 3-4 hours) I sincerely doubt it.

Yes, The Last Guardian was a severe disappointment.

All I remember about that game is my immense frustration. The camera, the controls, the framerate, Trico not responding, not knowing what to do, etc.

It's easily the worst of the Team Ico games. Ico is a bit overrated; while I loved it when it first came out because it was so different, it didn't hold up that well playing it a few years back. Shadow of the Colossus was still awesome on replay and is one of the finest PS2 games.

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I had a great time with Yakuza 0 but I came out of it with the idea of, "Alright I think that's enough Yakuza for me", especially knowing that 0 is one of the better ones and that they all have the same gameplay and mini game loops.

I just don't think I want to do all of the same things again.

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