Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 306: McMuffin Times Matter

(+) Yeah! (+)

UshiromiyaEva posted...

Oh boy it's gonna be fun waiting for Tim to get banned again. I appreciate you trying to get as calm a take as you can before he gets banned again, Jakyl.

Its not going well
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That's inevitable, but still an honest who pity is appreciated. I'm not going to be capable of engaging with him period without completely losing my cool, so just not going to try.

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Tim, you do realize that in your best efforts to defend police behavior, you immediately equated them to people you're calling out as actual criminals and their victims, right.

That's...not a good direction to go.

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Inviso posted...

You do realize that a taxpayer-funded, paramilitary organization should be held to a higher standard than the civilian population, right? And the fact that your immediate response is "well you don't care what THEY do" is part of the problem with the police and their line of thinking, right? Especially since, on paper, the police hold and exert greater authority over those high crime neighborhoods than the high crime neighborhoods exert over the police.

Like, dude, you have so much power and control...why do you NEED to have zero oversight or accountability for your actions? We pay your salary.

I didn't say "you don't care what they do," I pointed out how easily your views can become racist when applied to another group of people in the same way, because your views are bigoted at their core. And you can argue that we choose to be cops so it's not the same, well people choose their religion too.

We do not have zero oversight or accountability. It's the complete opposite actually. I can't speak for every department as I happen to work for the largest one in the world, but the oversight we have in insane. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least 10 different units and agencies, both civilian and job related (and all redundant with each other) whose job it is to ACTIVELY investigate police misconduct. Not to wait something to be brought to them, but to actually go out into the field and spy on us and set up traps. For every "dirty" cop they catch, they get ruin the lives of 100 clean ones. Ironically a friend of mine with a sparkling record after 20 years of service just got in trouble for letting an undercover posing as a drunk driver sleeping in his car walk home a few months ago.

The problem is, when one of these police shootings happen, the public either isn't afforded all of the information because of the ongoing investigation or media bias; or they see things they don't really understand do to inexperience; or their unconscious bias alters their view of what they're seeing (which I admit happens to me in the other direction.) Thus, when the correct determination is reached, it feels like a miscarriage of justice. This cop shot a guy on video and still got away with it. Of course people would be mad if they don't see the whole picture.

Also, cops pay taxes too.


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kevwaffles posted...

Tim, you do realize that in your best efforts to defend police behavior, you immediately equated them to people you're calling out as actual criminals and their victims, right.

That's...not a good direction to go.

It's not my problem if you completely misunderstand the point of my post.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

That's inevitable, but still an honest who pity is appreciated. I'm not going to be capable of engaging with him period without completely losing my cool, so just not going to try.

You're not going to try because you're wrong, and you have spent thousands of posts "debating" with people who are also wrong, and now that someone with a grip on reality shows up all of a sudden you clam up.

This should be exciting for you! Now when you make shit up about me brutalizing protesters in an insane attempt to get me fired, you can reference protests that I was actually on the job for (since I was in college during Occupy Wall Street.)

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Jim_Tab posted...

I didn't say "you don't care what they do," I pointed out how easily your views can become racist when applied to another group of people in the same way, because your views are bigoted at their core. And you can argue that we choose to be cops so it's not the same, well people choose their religion too.

We do not have zero oversight or accountability. It's the complete opposite actually. I can't speak for every department as I happen to work for the largest one in the world, but the oversight we have in insane. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least 10 different units and agencies, both civilian and job related (and all redundant with each other) whose job it is to ACTIVELY investigate police misconduct. Not to wait something to be brought to them, but to actually go out into the field and spy on us and set up traps. For every "dirty" cop they catch, they get ruin the lives of 100 clean ones. Ironically a friend of mine with a sparkling record after 20 years of service just got in trouble for letting an undercover posing as a drunk driver sleeping in his car walk home a few months ago.

The problem is, when one of these police shootings happen, the public either isn't afforded all of the information because of the ongoing investigation or media bias; or they see things they don't really understand do to inexperience; or their unconscious bias alters their view of what they're seeing (which I admit happens to me in the other direction.) Thus, when the correct determination is reached, it feels like a miscarriage of justice. This cop shot a guy on video and still got away with it. Of course people would be mad if they don't see the whole picture.

Also, cops pay taxes too.

Do you not understand why your mindset in the bolded section is part of the problem? You're making it seem like the people in charge of providing oversight on the police are the bad guys for providing oversight on an organization that has the power and authority to inflict harm and execute people with impunity.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Who is saying this? The white wokes? BLM activists arent saying this.

Come on now. We can't have an honest debate if you're gonna be willfully obtuse.

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You're moving the goalposts Inviso. I don't have a problem with police oversight, in fact I support it like everybody else because it is 100% necessary. I do have a problem with malicious and frivilous oversight though, where a cop can lose 20 vacation days because an undercover brings them an empty wallet they "found" and the cop throws it in the garbage.

That's all besides the point here though, I only referenced that as an example that police oversight very much exists.

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Jim_Tab posted...

You're moving the goalposts Inviso. I don't have a problem with police oversight, in fact I support it like everybody else because it is 100% necessary. I do have a problem with malicious and frivilous oversight though, where a cop can lose 20 vacation days because an undercover brings them an empty wallet they "found" and the cop throws it in the garbage.

That's all besides the point here though, I only referenced that as an example that police oversight very much exists.

Your tone is specifically hostile towards oversight in general, and you keep using examples of frivolity to try and paint the process in a negative light as a whole. I mean, even in your original post, you couldn't even say 1 dirty cop for every 100 clean ones punished. You had to put quotation marks around "dirty" to imply that you believe it's bullshit even under those circumstances.

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Jim_Tab posted...

It's not my problem if you completely misunderstand the point of my post.

The point you're trying to make is completely obvious. In your case, it pretty much always is.

A toddler flailing in a temper tantrum isn't trying to bang their elbow and hurt themselves, but it's been known to happen.

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Reading through Roberts's opinion and lol at taking the time to dunk on Kavanaugh's dissent that wants to allow the Trump Administration to use new reasons after the fact to terminate DACA when the entire basis of the lawsuit is that they illegally terminated it based on the reason they gave at the time.

Sotomayor files her own concurrence in part saying she thinks Roberts is wrong to say there's no Equal Protection Argument in this case and she would rather have both sides argue it out further. Also blasts Roberts for dismissing Trump's comments on immigrants as "unilluminating" re: this case.

Thomas's dissent (joined by Alito and Gorsuch) is basically "DACA was always illegal."

Alito then files a separate dissent that adds on hand-wringing about how terrible it is that the Trump Administration tried to kill DACA early on and now in 2020 this decision is telling them to try again so it's been stalled out over nearly an entire presidential term (ignoring the fact that the reason the court is telling them to start over is because they did not follow the law as required.)

Kavanaugh has his dissent that I note Roberts dunking on in the Court's opinion.

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It's just stunning how some of these people are comic book villains.

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That's fair, I'll grant you that point. I shouldn't have used the quotation marks, that's honestly not what I meant to imply but I could see why it would be taken that way.

The reason why I'm using frivolous examples is because that's what 99% of police oversight is. Regardless of how rampant you believe police brutality and misconduct is, it isn't, and there are so many resources devoted to overseeing so little actual misconduct that they are forced to justify their existence. They certainly catch actual criminal cops, or cops that acted improperly in their official duties. But that is exceedingly rare compared to the nonsense they will jam a cop up on.

The Civilian Complaint Review Board is even more ridiculous. They will investigate complaints made by civilians you arrested (and thus have every reason to want to get back at you) and make judgments on non-criminal matters with literally zero evidence. "This guy says you called him the N-word, and you can't prove that you didn't, so we're ruling that the charge is unsubstantiated and recommending a penalty of five vacation days." The best part is when you do end up needing to shoot someone, the news can report you have 35 prior complaints against you and a history of racism, none of which is true, but on paper it is. I shouldn't have an issue with that?

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kevwaffles posted...

The point you're trying to make is completely obvious. In your case, it pretty much always is.

A toddler flailing in a temper tantrum isn't trying to bang their elbow and hurt themselves, but it's been known to happen.

The point you're trying to make is exceedingly less obviousm


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And I'm saying that while being aware that the point of my post seems to have gone right over your head

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Sounds like the decision is a mess.
But also one that's pretty easy to solve going forward for Trump.

Do the memo and stuff first.
Eliminate after.

Basically follow the procedure.

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Literally everyone in the case (all 9 justices and the side defending DACA) agrees that the executive branch has the authority to rescind DACA - it was a unilateral executive branch decision to begin with. This administration is just so fucking incompetent it can't do anything right. Which I mean, that's good that it saved DACA for the moment, but a Trump win in November basically would leave it to actually be rescinded... provided they don't screw up again which admittedly you can't be certain of.

It's basically the citizenship question part 2 although Roberts's opinion doesn't sound nearly as pained that he couldn't talk himself into letting the administration win this time.

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Kinglicious posted...

Sounds like the decision is a mess.
But also one that's pretty easy to solve going forward for Trump.

Do the memo and stuff first.
Eliminate after.

Basically follow the procedure.

Definitely should have seen this take coming.

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Kinglicious posted...

But also one that's pretty easy to solve going forward for Trump.

Kinglicious posted...

Basically follow the procedure.

Pick one
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/us/rayshard-brooks-atlanta-shooting-wednesday/index.html

Just wanted to mention, since I think it got lost in all the other discussion, that after Rayshard Brooks was shot and dying on the pavement, there's video evidence of the officer kicking him, rather than administering immediate medical aid (as I believe is police procedure).

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Jim_Tab posted...

The best part is when you do end up needing to shoot someone, the news can report you have 35 prior complaints against you and a history of racism, none of which is true, but on paper it is. I shouldn't have an issue with that?

The complaint counts arent true? If you have 35 complaints against you, no matter how many are accurate, you still do actually have that amount of complaints.
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Jakyl25 posted...

The complaint counts arent true? If you have 35 complaints against you, no matter how many are accurate, you still do actually have that amount of complaints.

That's sort of like when the police/DA charge a defendant with 35 counts for doing 1 thing.

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Big surprise, murdering thug kicks his victim while they're down.

It's almost like we've been seeing this constantly for weeks, though admittedly they usually kick them after they've been gassed or hit with rubber bullets instead of real ones.

Hopefully will make it easier for the murder conviction to stick.

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Jim_Tab posted...

Come on now. We can't have an honest debate if you're gonna be willfully obtuse.

Im not trying to be obtuse. Youd be remiss if you thought black activists arent doing work to improve Chicagos black communities outside of any police reforms. It just doesnt make the news because its not sexy like cops vs the public. We all agree that the media is awful.

I have no doubt that there are a bunch of performative woke people claiming that Chicago shooters arent at any fault because theyre systemically oppressed, but those people are irrelevant to the actual protests IMO
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Jakyl25 posted...

The complaint counts arent true? If you have 35 complaints against you, no matter how many are accurate, you still do actually have that amount of complaints.

No, the complaints shouldn't count if they're from people who got arrested. Those people are obviously criminals and just trying to discredit the police. Have the police ever mistreated anyone who wasn't pure evil?
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hold up everyone

trump gave us a new holiday

https://twitter.com/rebeccaballhaus/status/1273641804198555650

"I did something good: I made Juneteenth very famous. It's actually an important event, an important time. But nobody had ever heard of it."

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Its amazing how he keeps one-upping himself
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God the debates are just gonna be two cranks yelling insane soundbytes at each other
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Jakyl25 posted...

God the debates are just gonna be two cranks yelling insane soundbytes at each other

The great thing about democracy is we get the government we deserve.

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Jim_Tab posted...

And I'm saying that while being aware that the point of my post seems to have gone right over your head

"BLM doesn't care about actual criminals." Happy?

I don't need to reiterate the issues multiple people have made with your logic to point out the simple fact you have to bring up people you are calling out as criminals in order to defend your overall position.

Technically, I wasn't trying to say you were wrong (nor right) by pointing out what I did. I was trying to make you have the slightest bit of introspection and realize that maybe you shouldn't feel too good about the bar you're setting.

Of course I didn't think I'd succeed to start, but you've failed to meet even my lowest expectations by instead acting that you made a point that had a deep enough meaning for anyone to miss.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Pick one

But that's why i preferred Trump to the competition last time around!

His incompetence prevents the worst aspects possible on most issues. Like i remember those arguments, the incompetence of trump vs. cruz or pence or ryan, where it's actually intelligent and calculated. Hell, since he's in the news now again, I'll just point out that Bolton is from the same cloth as Ryan only a significantly worse human being too. I'll gladly take incompetence because courts slapping Trump down left and right is by far the best feature this administration has had.


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"Cops have murdered people, and we think it's unacceptable"

"But look at all those murderers that are murdering people!"

Hell of a defense.

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Kinglicious posted...

His incompetence prevents the worst aspects possible on most issues.

Remember that time he did everything he could to dismantle the past 3 administrations efforts on pandemic prevention and preparation?
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It's interesting that Tim genuinely believes there's no problem...

This is why things are ramping up - the police departments all genuinely believe there's no problem, and they should just keep doing what they are doing. It's the public that's wrong. How do we bridge this view?

Unrelated question - in that twitter video we saw where a guy was filming a beatdown from his apartment window, and a cop just shoots at the window (i'm assuming with rubber bullets) - what is the ordinary recourse that guy should take? Who does he report that to? My reaction to that is that's insane and somebody should be facing harsh punishments for doing that.... but even if all of this insane rioting wasn't happening and this was a normal day, would that even happen?

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CoolCly posted...

Unrelated question - in that twitter video we saw where a guy was filming a beatdown from his apartment window, and a cop just shoots at the window (i'm assuming with rubber bullets) - what is the ordinary recourse that guy should take? Who does he report that to? My reaction to that is that's insane and somebody should be facing harsh punishments for doing that.... but even if all of this insane rioting wasn't happening and this was a normal day, would that even happen?

There is nobody to report it to, that's kind of the whole issue. Cops are out of control and there's nothing normal citizens can actually do about it but fight back.

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CoolCly posted...

It's interesting that Tim genuinely believes there's no problem...

This is why things are ramping up - the police departments all genuinely believe there's no problem, and they should just keep doing what they are doing. It's the public that's wrong.

The police are fundamentally a conservative institution, dedicated to preserving the status quo. It just so happens that in America the status quo is one hell of a lot of institutionalized racism. So when protesters start saying "hey maybe chill with the casual murdering of Black people" that reads as an attack on the very fabric of the society the police are meant to uphold.

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https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/18/tech/facebook-trump-ads-triangle-takedown/index.html

Zuckerberg can only ignore the obvious for so long.

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I'd really like to know the defense for kicking Brooks while he was down after he had already been shot, and not rendering any type of aid. Even if you think everything up until that point was fine and necessary, surely that's not something to defend?

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xp1337 posted...

hold up everyone

trump gave us a new holiday

https://twitter.com/rebeccaballhaus/status/1273641804198555650

"I did something good: I made Juneteenth very famous. It's actually an important event, an important time. But nobody had ever heard of it."

Best part:

Mr. Trump said he polled many people around him, none of whom had heard of Juneteenth. Mr. Trump paused the interview to ask an aide if she had heard of Juneteenth, and she pointed out that the White House had issued a statement last year commemorating the day. Mr. Trumps White House has put out statements on Juneteenth during each of his first three years.
Oh really? We put out a statement? The Trump White House put out a statement? Mr. Trump said. OK, OK. Good.

This fucking guy

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this Matt gaetz thing is weird huh
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*looks it up*

...bruh

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Kinglicious posted...

I'll gladly take incompetence because courts slapping Trump down left and right is by far the best feature this administration has had.

The issue is that hes packing the courts

Imagine if he gets 4 more years and puts a few more people on the SCOTUS
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xp1337 posted...

hold up everyone

trump gave us a new holiday

https://twitter.com/rebeccaballhaus/status/1273641804198555650

"I did something good: I made Juneteenth very famous. It's actually an important event, an important time. But nobody had ever heard of it."

To be fair, I never heard of it either until like a week or so ago. It's pretty much the consensus I have heard from every one else around here.

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Corrik7 posted...

To be fair, I never heard of it either until like a week or so ago. It's pretty much the consensus I have heard from every one else around here.

Arent you a history student?
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Wait I just realized something for the first time possibly

Corrik, is your community very diverse? Or overwhelmingly white?
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Jakyl25 posted...

The issue is that hes packing the courts

Imagine if he gets 4 more years and puts a few more people on the SCOTUS

Gorsuch, a Trump appointee, wrote the opinion that just came out saying that the Civil Rights Act forbids discrimination based on sexual orientation. The ability of Republican presidents to pack the courts is greatly overstated.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Wait I just realized something for the first time possibly

Corrik, is your community very diverse? Or overwhelmingly white?

We have neighborhoods with some more minorities, but the area is typically very white. Philadelphia region is the major African-American hub of PA. Clairton, Monessen, Donora, parts of Pittsburgh have more diversity, but most neighborhoods in our area are pretty white.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Arent you a history student?

Yeah I have a history degree and a Secondary Education - Social Studies degree. I feel super confident that word Juneteenth has never come up in any of my time, even in African-American history in college. I mean, I know the emancipation date has. But not that specific term, no. I only started hearing it last week, and I thought it was something made up for BLM / George Floyd or something.

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red sox 777 posted...

Gorsuch, a Trump appointee, wrote the opinion that just came out saying that the Civil Rights Act forbids discrimination based on sexual orientation. The ability of Republican presidents to pack the courts is greatly overstated.

We told them all when they were freaking out that the courts weren't going to be the way they acted. They were acting like abortion was gonna be banned day 1 and shit. Fearmongering is a great motivational tool though.

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