Board 8 > Casual chess topic

(+) Yeah! (+)

I've always kind of liked chess but never bothered to git gud. I recently downloaded a chess app to have something free to pick up and play in short stretches of idle time.

I'm just playing against a basic starter level AI so this isn't anything extraordinary, but I felt like chatting about it and I figure at least a handful of users here are into chess.

Here's my board right now. Black to move. Can we just discuss this board state for a minute?

Up until this point I've been making a deliberate point to not consider my moves super deeply and just kinda see where my instincts get me. But this is the first move where I'm like hmmm let's take a bit to consider.

A few things:

- I feel like black has a stronger position here because rooks are already aligned and pawns are more consolidated. Is that a valid take?

- Most "obvious" move that jumps out to my instinctive play is rook to g1. Then white either trades rooks, pinning its knight, or moves rook to d2, also pinning its knight.

- White's D pawn...I'm kind of fine with it being in the D file because it's inhibiting the white rooks in a way. Does that stance make sense?

Is something with the pawns or knight better than pressuring with the rook? Does rook to D8 have some merit?

As black, where do you go from here?

Random thought: it would be really funny to see a head to head "Twitch plays chess" where two streams face off against one another

black is winning here because its pawns are connected and can protect each other. at first glance, black can play c3, d4 and protect with the rook/play Nc6 to defend the base point. the rooks can pick off those pawns and itll be over soon thereafter. you can see moves like Rg2 causing huge problems for white, locking down his pieces to defend threats everywhere.

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Tag. Speaking in general I play quite a bit of chess. Not so much over-the-board, but I've got probably thousands of games online through the years. Current username is Estelle_Bright on lichess. (For those that don't know, lichess.org is free and easy site to play chess on that has people of all skill levels up to and including top grandmasters. Chess24 and chess.com I believe are also good but I don't have experience with those myself)

I'm not great at rook endgames but I'll try and offer my thoughts about this position.

- I feel like black has a stronger position here because rooks are already aligned and pawns are more consolidated. Is that a valid take?

This looks like a position that should be drawn but I'd probably favor black if anything. The main benefits I see are that for the moment black has more active rooks and a better pawn structure (isolated pawns=bad as a general rule), though for various reasons I think in this specific position they don't generate as much concrete advantage as they typically do. In particular, the d3 pawn is ready to undermine blacks pawn majority and allow white to connect his rooks in the process

- Most "obvious" move that jumps out to my instinctive play is rook to g1. Then white either trades rooks, pinning its knight, or moves rook to d2, also pinning its knight.

There's a few different plans I see here and it's not immediately obvious to me which is best (I'm not good at rook endgames...), but here's my thoughts

--Rg1 does look reasonable. It trades off white's good rook (though I would probably respond Kc2 as white) and for the moment leaves white's knight passive if he accepts the trade. However, I think it also might be that black wants to maximize the value of having 2 active rooks while he has the chance, and trading now might lead the game more straightforwardly into a draw.

--I can see some merit to Rg2 and immediately start threatening his pawns. Black can also defend his weaker backward pawns with R8g5, so actually because of that I'm thinking this might be my favored move. My main worry for black is being able to hold onto these pawns that are behind other pawns and far from his king, but once I found this Rg5 idea it makes me a lot more comfortable with this plan and black's position in general.

--Another thing I'm thinking about is trying to get black's king and knight into the game and provide more defense of the d5 and b6 pawns, so something like Kc7 or Nd7/Nd6. I feel like black might have the opportunity to immediately exploit his stronger rooks though with one of the other options.

- White's D pawn...I'm kind of fine with it being in the D file because it's inhibiting the white rooks in a way. Does that stance make sense?

Generally yes, but in this position white's probably going to trade it off pretty quickly anyways. (Side note: Putting rooks behind passed pawns is very strong and is not something you should be happy about, but this is not a passed pawn so that doesn't matter)
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transcience posted...

black is winning here because its pawns are connected and can protect each other. at first glance, black can play c3, d4 and protect with the rook/play Nc6 to defend the base point. the rooks can pick off those pawns and itll be over soon thereafter. you can see moves like Rg2 causing huge problems for white, locking down his pieces to defend threats everywhere.

Can black hold onto the pawns if white responds to c3 by playing d4 himself? I didn't look to closely at it but this seemed sketchy to me.

If there is a way for black to hold the pawns here this is probably the best plan

Edit: No I don't really think he can because playing d4 also immediately threatens Rxc3 and I don't think there's a way to stop it.
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taggo

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as you mentioned, rook and pawn endgames take time so its always hard to say definitively. my weakness is definitely calculation of endgames. but, I think you could definitely have winning chances with moves like Nc6 threatening d4, or getting counterplay via Rg2 or even playing b5/b4.

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I like chess but I'm bad at strategy at it, I do like you said at first and just sort of wing every move

pyresword posted...

--Rg1 does look reasonable. It trades off white's good rook (though I would probably respond Kc2 as white) and for the moment leaves white's knight passive if he accepts the trade. However, I think it also might be that black wants to maximize the value of having 2 active rooks while he has the chance, and trading now might lead the game more straightforwardly into a draw.

What is meant by "active" in this case? Is it cause the white rooks are kind of locked in more by their own other pieces? Does a player typically want their rooks in the same column?
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I used to play chess a whole bunch a few years ago, and I was in chess club in high school.

Rook to g1 seems good on the outset but I've never been a big fan of trading pieces unless absolutely necessary. I honestly think it leaves you too open to a counterplay with the f3 Rook that feels a little too open from then on for my liking and I think costs you more material in the long run.

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Yeah to be clear about one thing: I said the position was "probably drawn", but I do think black is clearly the one fighting for a win whereas white is fighting to maintain a draw.
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Emeraldegg posted...

What is meant by "active" in this case? Is it cause the white rooks are kind of locked in more by their own other pieces? Does a player typically want their rooks in the same column?

Yeah "active" just means free to move around the board, and in this case I'm saying white's rooks aren't as active because he's got other pieces in the way.

I'd say a lot of times connected rooks is good, but mostly because it provides you with an avenue by which to easily activate your rooks and infiltrate the opponent's position while making it harder to challenge them. Incidentally though, I put this position into a computer and one of its top choices is Re8, which is not a move I totally see the appeal of. It controls both open files, but it's not super clear to me that that is worthwhile.
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pyresword posted...

I put this position into a computer and one of its top choices is Re8

I can safely say I would not have found that myself. But looking at it now I feel like it's some kind of thing that leads to swift pressure of a mate within a few moves or something.

Well maybe not mate but an inevitable winning state anyway.

I ended up playing b5

Not because I necessarily thought it was the "best" move, but more because I thought it was the most fun.

White took c4, which I took back from d5.

White then challenged my rook with h3.

Rg2
Rd5
Rg5
Rf5
Rxf5
Rd2??

Easy win after that

Guess I should up the difficulty? Lol

Final position:

lichess stockfish level 1 is pretty funny. sometimes it plays really good moves all in a row and then it hangs a queen.

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stockfish 1 kicks my butt every time :\

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I've played several more games against stockfish level 1 and am starting to form the conclusion that as long as I don't just hang pieces I'll basically never lose. And even if I do hang a piece, as long as it's not endgame yet and I don't hang any more after that, it will usually end up throwing the game.

Here's a game where I've only been paying a quarter attention because I'm celebrating a birthday.

White has queen rook knight, Black has rook rook bishop with a coupl extra pawns.

What is black's move?

Im not sure if it saves you but Ba2 might win the knight

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Fair point. I feel like now that white finally moved the rook out of H, my home rook is no longer doing anything important so getting it into the fray might be good. But Ba2 seems much more immediately good

Hello everyone! Ive played chess casually for years and joined a club recently. Im rated 1400 OTB with a 1600 blitz rating online. mostly trying to focus on calculating lines better and learning new openings to improve.

As for this queen rook vs two rook game, i think its completely lost for black. Ba2 cannot win the knight on b1 because it will leave the bishop hanging, unless you move the H rook to A1. And if you do that, white plays Rh6, Rxh7 And has a passed h-pawn thats going to be very dangerous and likely impossible to stop without giving up all your pawns to the Queen

oh Im mistaken, there is no white H pawn in this position. thats much better. i still think the queen and rook can mow over all of blacks pawns but in this case i think you ought to be playing for ideas like Rc1 and trying to push the C and B pawns up then

Well fortunately for me this is a pretty low level AI :)

yeah, I dont think black has much hope here given how exposed his king is. but, Rxb1 is with check so there might be something? maybe that c pawn has a prayer? probably not. I was thinking that the queen would just not care about the knight and play Qxf5. if there isnt a mate there with rook and bishop, white can really punish blacks king.

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I did play Ba2 and it responded Qa4, for the record

oh wow, the computer actually says that black is winning after Rha8. Ba2 is about equal but not in the top 5 moves. who knew!

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transience posted...

oh wow, the computer actually says that black is winning after Rha8

Nice! I didn't play that move but I liked it lol

turbopuns3 posted...

Random thought: it would be really funny to see a head to head "Twitch plays chess" where two streams face off against one another

Madness mode only

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Yeah white totally tanked it. Guess I need to bump it up soon. But for now I kinda like playing carelessly and then hitting the point where I have to stop and be careful and meticulously and work my way out of it.

Does anyone follow pro chess? Candidates tournament is starting soon and I am pretty excited for that. Hoping for Ding Liren to win because I like him and I want to see a match of him vs Magnus.

Not too surprised that position ended up winning for Black in the engine. I don't know if I'd have stated that just analyzing myself, but it does seem true that the knight is a goner and also those passed pawns seem deadly. (Also worthy of note is that after the computer's suggestion of Rha8--which I probably would not have found--white can't even break the pin on the knight because doing so would allow black to pin the queen to the king) White's rook seems strong at first glance but black's pieces are all nicely defended so I'm not sure it's actually doing much.
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I do! I'm going to be paying extra attention this time around because there's literally nothing else going on in the entertainment world. I'm expecting Caruana to win, think Ding has a chance if the China stuff/lack of seconds hasn't completely distracted him, and hope that Giri continues to draw every game.

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If I were betting I'd go with Caruana again yeah. I might have gone Ding before the COVID-19 stuff started but that almost certainly affected his ability to prep and his general mental state. (Though at the point we're at now that might be true of everyone...) They're the pretty clear top 2 in my eyes though, and in pretty much everyone else's I think.

I like Giri. I don't think he'll win but I hope he ends up positive, especially because I think his drawing reputation is not necessarily deserved or is at least way overstated.
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I've sort of got into it after following Caruana v Carlsen back in 2018. I watched a good chunk of Wijk ann Zee (or however you write it...), mostly to see if Carlsen could keep his unbeaten run.

I've been playing a lot of chess lately because I've been sick (not coronavirus). I'm bad (rating 1100) but since I play the same openings every game (Alekhine's or reverse Queen's Gambit as black if possible; Italian Game into Fried Liver attack as white if at all possible) I get quite a lot of wins at this level. I've been playing on chess 24 but it's honestly not very good (bit glitchy, lot of bad mannered opponents e.g. going afk when beaten rather than just resigning).

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I'm going through a bit of an opening crisis at the moment. As white I play almost exclusively Queen's Gambit and it works well enough. (Or troll openings when I'm tilted on online blitz...1. c3 2. Na3 3. Nc2 is a favorite for this...also things like trying to put all of my pawns on the 3rd rank for no reason...)

As black though I've been playing lately the French, Caro-Kann, and Sicilian vs 1. e4 and none of them really feel right to me. Maybe it is time for me to transition to 1...e5 but I've hated that since I started playing chess. I tend to prefer solid positional lines to sharp lines that tactical and/or double-edged...so maybe the Petrov? That feels so uninspired though.
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i've read that sicilian is the best answer to 1. e4.

don't know if bold statements like that are actually accurate, though!

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its not the best, or any better than e5, but it does offer the most interesting games, I think. I play a sicilian and then basically a reverse sicilian as white because I like the dynamic play so much.

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here are the responses to 1. e4 and their percentage results

https://i.imgur.com/6O2ftKO.png

and here's 1. d4 if you're curious

https://i.imgur.com/e7MBxop.png

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Well the Sicilian would probably be the best performer by most metrics, but the differences are so small among a few of the top choices it's more about playstyle than anything I think, at least at everything below the top level. (Not the same, but the reason I play 1. d4 as white despite the fact that I consider 1. e4 the "better" opening is because I think closed positional play suits my playstyle better than openings like the Sicilian or some 1. e4 e5 lines)

Grandmasters do overwhelmingly play 1...e5 or 1...c5 (the Sicilian) I think, but even in top classical matches you'll still see stuff like 1...c6, 1...e6, and a few others on occasion.
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yeah, among the top top players you don't see a ton of c5 as it is a little more double edged, though Magnus made a real strong case for his pet line in the last world championship. I think the consensus top line (or at least, the most played) is probably the ruy lopez (e4 e5 Nf3 Nc6 Bb5).

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pyresword posted...

Well the Sicilian would probably be the best performer by most metrics, but the differences are so small among a few of the top choices it's more about playstyle than anything I think, at least at everything below the top level. (Not the same, but the reason I play 1. d4 as white despite the fact that I consider 1. e4 the "better" opening is because I think closed positional play suits my playstyle better than openings like the Sicilian or some 1. e4 e5 lines)

Grandmasters do overwhelmingly play 1...e5 or 1...c5 (the Sicilian) I think, but even in top classical matches you'll still see stuff like 1...c6, 1...e6, and a few others on occasion.

The NM who runs my local club advised me to learn d4 openings first as e4 has so many common lines that you could find yourself running into Black's pet line more easily. Also, playing against c5 and e5 are radically different, whereas I feel that d4 openings will often result in more familiar positions regardless of Black's response.

Yeah that's all also true. Requiring less knowledge of theory is another big reason why I started playing d4. I did play e4 for a bit but got tired of getting 10 moves deep in a Najdorf Sicilian with no idea wtf is happening while feeling like my opponent is still in book.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Defence

This wiki article has quite a lot of info on the Sicilian. Each time I read these sorts of pieces I learn a bit more!

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there's lots of good youtube videos on openings too, or just people who go over games. chess is more popular now than it has been in decades thanks to online streaming.

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I've been playing on stockfish 2 for a handful of games now. I've made a point to play black several times in a row for whatever reason. Generally I've found that I respond well until the mid game starts, after a couple pawn breaks when there are lots of pieces in the mix, I have a tendency to hang a piece to either a discovered attack or to a three way attack that's coming from all different corners of the board or something.

Been reminding myself to slow down and focus on undefended pieces. I've started to see some wins. Here's a fun board where I favored development over pawns.

What say ye about this one? Black to move.

Well your knight is trapped but I don't think it matters? You can play Bxg5 and the bin on d2 seems like it will trade to what seems like it should be a winning endgame. (You don't actually win the piece I don't think but you're already a piece up, and it either allows your knight to escape or forces a bishop for knight trade, unless there's a clever resource I'm missing which there sometimes are in these positions.)
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Yeah, I noticed how obviously good the pawn take was immediately when I posted it.

I, too, was a little worried that there might be some quick clever counter thing white could do if I was too aggressive, but nah it was super in the bag at that point.

Ding v Caruana starting now: https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-tournaments/fide-candidates-2020/3/1/1

Ding's had a horrible start with two losses to Vachier-Legrave and Wang Hao, but maybe he can get something going today.

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turbopuns3 posted...

I've always kind of liked chess but never bothered to git gud. I recently downloaded a chess app to have something free to pick up and play in short stretches of idle time.

I'm just playing against a basic starter level AI so this isn't anything extraordinary, but I felt like chatting about it and I figure at least a handful of users here are into chess.

Here's my board right now. Black to move. Can we just discuss this board state for a minute?

Up until this point I've been making a deliberate point to not consider my moves super deeply and just kinda see where my instincts get me. But this is the first move where I'm like hmmm let's take a bit to consider.

A few things:

- I feel like black has a stronger position here because rooks are already aligned and pawns are more consolidated. Is that a valid take?

- Most "obvious" move that jumps out to my instinctive play is rook to g1. Then white either trades rooks, pinning its knight, or moves rook to d2, also pinning its knight.

- White's D pawn...I'm kind of fine with it being in the D file because it's inhibiting the white rooks in a way. Does that stance make sense?

Is something with the pawns or knight better than pressuring with the rook? Does rook to D8 have some merit?

As black, where do you go from here?

Knight to c6 imo

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