Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 279: Bye-Don.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Dancedreamer posted...

Nobody has really ever sold me on Biden. What does he offer that... Amy Klobuchar doesn't offer? That Mayor Pete doesn't offer? That Hillary Clinton didn't offer? That Kamala Harris doesn't offer?

name recognition and the hope that he doesn't crater in October. the Dems are in a good position in that they can run a weak candidate and still beat Trump. that's why so many people ran in this primary. I'm not saying 'do just enough to barely beat an historically unpopular president' is a good strategy but it's what they went with and why so many people thought this was their window.

Biden's being treated with kid gloves by the media and that can paper over a lot of his weaknesses. So if he's the guy, I guess the Dem plan is to hope he isn't hurt too much by a corruption scandal in the fall.

Reg posted...

Spoilers, people who "are happy with" their current insurance coverage are the people who do not have to use it in significant ways. The kinds of people who just maybe get a checkup once every year or two.

also who is happy with their insurance? who loves that you have to stay with a certain job or in a marriage just for the chance to navigate coverage networks and premiums and co-pays and shit? people are happy in the same way they're happy that the person holding a gun in a hostage situation hasn't shot them yet.

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pyresword posted...

Biden is proposing to expand health insurance coverage without taking away coverage people are already happy with.

This is a good thing which Sanders is not doing.

Reg posted...

Spoilers, people who "are happy with" their current insurance coverage are the people who do not have to use it in significant ways. The kinds of people who just maybe get a checkup once every year or two.

And expanding private insurance does nothing to solve the choice between crushing debt or death/greatly reduced quality of life that the worse-off face when something serious happens to them.

Literally what does this mean

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iiicon posted...

the Dems are in a good position in that they can run a weak candidate and still beat Trump

I think that the fact that anyone is dumb enough to beleive this why Biden being there is so dangerous.

Like, there are LEGIT people high up the totem poll who are still under the impression of "hell, there's NO WAY we can lose to Trump, so let's just get our guy in there even if he sucks, because he's definitely gonna win."

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Also, Bernie gets an equivalent amount of support with Latinos, but for some reason we can safely ignore that.

Defend it.

Please ask white Liberals supporting Biden to explain why Biden gets 8% of the Hispanic vote.

1) the article was about the black community dude of course we are ignoring an unrelated group

2) Sanders obviously does well with Latinos because he does a SHIT LOAD of outreach with that community! Which is great. So again, when every candidate claims to be building a "diverse coalition" why do they have to pick and choose which groups to exclude?

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

I think that the fact that anyone is dumb enough to beleive this why Biden being there is so dangerous.

well an issue is I don't think they see Biden as weak

but also it's kinda true. everything had to break right for Trump to win and he only barely did it. now he's even more unpopular! he also has an election machine behind him that's four years strong and extremely wealthy so I don't think it's a given, but I do believe every major Dem candidate would have varying degrees of success against him.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Literally what does this mean

1. If you're currently getting ACA subsidies, you will pay ~15% less for healthcare
2. Currently subsidies instantly turn off when your family income hits 400% of the poverty line (basically creating in reality the dumb scenario where some people think they'll get less money if they make enough to move into the next tax bracket). He's eliminating that hard cutoff.

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I think I am done with people too stupid to not understand how healthcare works. Like, I have had enough with "people are happy with their insurance"

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metroid composite posted...

Which surprised me; I thought maybe Elizabeth Warren would have more appeal to African Americans than Bernie, but no, not even close; her white support was way higher than her African American support.

There's a good article in the NYT about how Warren's campaign was really good with connecting to activist groups and leaders in the demographics she needed (particularly with black women) but bad at getting actual normal voters on her team. Some real nerd shit. I'll try to find it again and edit this post

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/28/us/politics/elizabeth-warren-black-vote.html#click=https://t.co/cHaSlBAIdd

This particular author's campaign coverage is really good btw

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I think I am done with people too stupid to not understand how healthcare works. Like, I have had enough with "people are happy with their insurance"

Like I've said several times, it's much more accurate to say "a lot of people are happy enough with their insurance that they don't want to gamble it all on completely replacing the system."

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iiicon posted...

but also it's kinda true. everything had to break right for Trump to win and he only barely did it. now he's even more unpopular!

I think this is a grave misunderstanding. Yes, his popularity on a national polling level is always shit. But if we're talking getting peope out to vote for him, his diehard base is stronger than ever. In a year where turnout is going to increase, I have zero doubt that Trump is stronger now than he was in 2016 when many Republican were still in denial. My parents voted for Hillary in 2016, they are voting for Trump this year because "he's done good by them so far, why risk it.".

I want to point out the most undiscussed and major factor that I can speak from on a personal level with the older generation I am in contact with.

An enormous amount of Republicans didn't vote for Trump in 2016 because they thought he he was a Democrat pretending to be a Republican to get elected and was going to be more liberal than Hillary.

LordoftheMorons posted...

Like I've said several times, it's much more accurate to say "a lot of people are happy enough with their insurance that they don't want to gamble it all on completely replacing the system."

People are dying. I don't care about these people.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

1) the article was about the black community dude of course we are ignoring an unrelated group

2) Sanders obviously does well with Latinos because he does a SHIT LOAD of outreach with that community! Which is great. So again, when every candidate claims to be building a "diverse coalition" why do they have to pick and choose which groups to exclude?

My point is that you dont get to say Bernie is all white Liberals when he literally holds an equivalent share (thus, Biden is excluding just as much diversity) of another minority group.

And yet we do.


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DoomTheGyarados posted...

People are dying. I don't care about these people.

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LotM is the person here to look to for the more positive take on Biden I think, but I'll offer up the cynical version of "why is Biden more electable" which is more where I fall.

Elections are basically glorified popularity contests. Well, popularity contests where some people's votes matter more than others which is bullshit, but I digress. Policy isn't the main, driving force for a lot of voters, perhaps even the majority of them. This should be less true in a primary where I would imagine the electorate consists of more politically plugged in people but even there I think it's a sad truth. A lot of people aren't as wired into politics as most of the posters in this topic. A lot of them find it exhausting that every fucking day we have like half a dozen "jesus christ" stories coming out of the Trump administration. They want a return to "normalcy" and "boring" where they don't have to think about politics and the president every damn day. Biden is the living personification of that. He's literally the VP of the "before times." Is it true that in some respects, and to many other people, this is something of a "negative peace" because the status quo was pretty shitty to them in terms of healthcare or inequality? Yeah, it is. But unfortunately the voting so far has shown what more voters seem to want.

Like to take the devil's advocate side of a comment that was (understandably in many ways to me) mocked - the one about wanting Biden to talk less policy more emotion. Yes, the policy/progressive side of me kinda seethes at that. However, from a pure politics standpoint I think it is accurate. This is Biden's greatest strength - empathy. Say what you want about Biden, his past, his policies... some, perhaps even most, of his greatest moments are when he's talking about the pain he has experienced and connecting to voters that way. That is why many, many people like him and support him. You can dismiss it as not being of substance but it's real and failing to understand that means you're failing to understand what drives many, many voters and you're writing off a huge chunk of potential voters.

I'm not claiming Sanders is completely incapable of taking the same approach but I think we can all agree it's not his main thing. As I think many of his supporters say, he's laser focused on class. There's a power in that to many people, it's why he has the diehard, passionate support bloc he has. But it doesn't look to be enough. I get that that's frustrating and I don't really have any answers on that front. Sanders's platform is popular, it is, people denying that are wrong in my estimate and ignoring the data. However it's more popular than him and that's something that should garner some reflection and introspection on why that is. You can say it's the media or the establishment and that certainly may be a part of it, but if you truly think that's the entirety of it and there's not some disconnect on the side of the Sanders campaign - even if it's one you think is silly and dumb - then I don't know what to say because if that's the case we're seeing the result and I don't know how you change it.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

It breaks for me when the examples he used off the rip are two tweets from accounts with 8 and 9 followers, respectively.

Also, Bernie gets an equivalent amount of support with Latinos, but for some reason we can safely ignore that.

Defend it.

Please ask white Liberals supporting Biden to explain why Biden gets 8% of the Hispanic vote.

I bet theyre gonna say something stupid too, because theyre not a part of that community, and to speak on it from the outside like its a monolith is moronicand yet the media keeps forcing white Bernie supporters to do it.

"White Bernie supporter dismisses concerns from black electorate, wonders again why his candidate won't win the Democratic Nomination" - Part 152.

Also don't know why you're bringing up the Latino vote. How many people out there are going "how dare Latino people not vote for Biden?" compared to "how dare Black people not vote for Bernie?" Because they're both minority groups? Is the implication that clearly Latino people are more highly educated or informed than Black people because obviously if they were smarter they would have picked Bernie? If black people weren't so dumb they'd vote for Bernie? That they have no sense of agency but go "ooooo its Barack's VP better vote for him!"? But another minority group that voted for Bernie clearly "know the issues."

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Well it is more so if they are not low information why the fuck are they voting for someone who lied about being part of the civil rights movement and lied about being arrested.

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I'm not trying to make a genuine argument that Biden's healthcare proposal is better than Bernie's, which would be outside the expertise level of anyone in this topic outside of maybe Raiden. (And if forced to choose I would go with Bernie's)

What I'm trying to establish is that "not taking away people's health insurance" is a good thing, which is a proof-by-example that Biden does have benefits which are unique to him among the remaining 2 Democratic candidates with a realistic chance.

Of course, this topic (and myself) would claim that the real world has trade-offs and that the overall effect of Bernie's plan is likely to be better, but that's fundamentally not the point I'm trying to argue.
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How dare young people not vote for Bernie?

TheRock1525 posted...

"White Bernie supporter dismisses concerns from black electorate, wonders again why his candidate won't win the Democratic Nomination" - Part 152.

Also don't know why you're bringing up the Latino vote. How many people out there are going "how dare Latino people not vote for Biden?" compared to "how dare Black people not vote for Bernie?" Because they're both minority groups? Is the implication that clearly Latino people are more highly educated or informed than Black people because obviously if they were smarter they would have picked Bernie? If black people weren't so dumb they'd vote for Bernie? That they have no sense of agency but go "ooooo its Barack's VP better vote for him!"? But another minority group that voted for Bernie clearly "know the issues."

Here's a question then. What can Bernie offer to get black voters on board that he hasn't yet? What need is being left unaddressed IYO? This isn't a rhetorical question, I'm seriously curious.

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TheRock1525 posted...

"White Bernie supporter dismisses concerns from black electorate, wonders again why his candidate won't win the Democratic Nomination" - Part 152.

Dont get it twisted.

I dismissed the concern from you.

There are plenty of black voices I listen to respect regularly who disagree with you, why are you dismissing their concerns, Rock?

There is literally a post in this topic where a white Biden supporter whitesplains MLK to Nina Turner on TV, and the white host stops NINA from finishing her remarks when the white woman interrupts her justified outrage, and then this same woman went on Twitter and called her Angry black woman.

Were both white, Rock.

How do you not see how stupid it is as white people to volley black people as a weapon back and forth and each other? If a black activist wants to criticize white Liberals, thats perfectly fine! But you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the issues if you think I am a white Liberal, let alone that I would dare explain TO black people why they voted for who they voted for.

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Also yes as has been said, that article didnt really make a good case for Biden, it instead made a case against White Liberals speaking for black people who voted for Biden.

Which should be the end of that discussion.

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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Here's a question then. What can Bernie offer to get black voters on board that he hasn't yet? What need is being left unaddressed IYO? This isn't a rhetorical question, I'm seriously curious.

That's like asking what Hillary could have done to reach out to swing voters who thought she was corrupt. Nothing within the box of readily available strategies would have worked.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

My point is that you dont get to say Bernie is all white Liberals when he literally holds an equivalent share (thus, Biden is excluding just as much diversity) of another minority group.

And yet we do.

Sure, but the bottom line is these counterarguments you're making work more on white liberals and don't help as much to actually coalition build.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Like I've said several times, it's much more accurate to say "a lot of people are happy enough with their insurance that they don't want to gamble it all on completely replacing the system."

Let's get real here. People who are "happy" with their health insurance are by and large people who have healthcare through their employer. They don't want to replace the system because then they will have to pay for their healthcare through taxes rather than receiving it as an employee benefit.

Like any normal person, they prefer having more money to less money. I think saying that this means they are happy with the health insurance system is extremely misleading.

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Trump has sued CNN for defamation. About time. CNN deserves to get sued out of business for its lies and propaganda.

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https://twitter.com/canaryfilmmaker/status/1236016811377938433?s=21

This is somehow real life and not The Onion
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Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/canaryfilmmaker/status/1236016811377938433?s=21

This is somehow real life and not The Onion

Same energy.

https://youtu.be/iIpCYnT4a0U

Biden has by far the most relevant experience of any candidate (he was literally VP for eight years). Hes ready to step in from day 1 and immediately start fixing all of the shit that Trump has broken. He knows, and is well liked by, a huge fraction of foreign leaders which will be helpful in rebuilding our alliances and solving global problems like climate change. He really will, unlike Trump, staff his administration with the best people.

Hes very experienced in passing legislation and knows what it takes to actually get his priorities through Congress. Hes promising big things (like a public option, addressing climate change, gun control) that he might actually be able to get done.

There are plenty of reasons to like Biden. As xp pointed out, hes also extremely good at connecting to people emotionally through trauma.

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Yeah, I really don't get people who are happy with their current insurance. I'm lucky enough to have a stable job that pays me well, but I still get a little anxious knowing that an unlucky accident or a serious illness will make dealing with insurance a nightmare.

Yearly check ups are easy enough but you're kidding yourself if you think insurance companies won't fight tooth and nail the moment something much more serious/expensive comes up.

The fact that it's tied to employment really is just icing on the fucking cake.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Hes very experienced in passing legislation

*republican legislation

LordoftheMorons posted...

Biden has by far the most relevant experience of any candidate (he was literally VP for eight years).

So basically you've already disqualified every female candidate here? Also every person of color. This would've include Barack Obama.

LordoftheMorons posted...

Hes ready to step in from day 1 and immediately start fixing all of the shit that Trump has broken

Who wasn't? Cause someone had a plan for that...

LordoftheMorons posted...

He knows, and is well liked by, a huge fraction of foreign leaders which will be helpful in rebuilding our alliances and solving global problems like climate change

Whoever is President will be well-introduced to foreign leaders merely by virtue of being President. Look at Obama! He didn't have much experience either, if I recall correctly.

LordoftheMorons posted...

He really will, unlike Trump, staff his administration with the best people.

You mean like the Republicans he's already said he'd consider reaching out to?

LordoftheMorons posted...

Hes very experienced in passing legislation and knows what it takes to actually get his priorities through Congress.

Most of these candidates are fairly experienced in passing legislation. Except Mayor Pete and Mike Bloomberg. (Though one could argue Bloomberg bought enough senators and congressmen to pass legislation)

LordoftheMorons posted...

Hes promising big things (like a public option, addressing climate change, gun control) that he might actually be able to get done.

Which democrat other than maybe John Delaney wasn't offering at the bare minimum public option? Even Mike Bloomberg had a semi-public option plan. And maybe even Delaney was offering public option.

LordoftheMorons posted...

There are plenty of reasons to like Biden. As xp pointed out, hes also extremely good at connecting to people emotionally through trauma.

He's also able to alienate people by saying things like "I have no empathy for millenials" and "Vote for someone else!"

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Dancedreamer posted...

He's also able to alienate people by saying things like "I have no empathy for millenials" and "Vote for someone else!"

While the latter has been super dumb on Biden's part. The full context on the former... I'm not defending it because it was still dumb of him to say... but it makes it less awful than if you cut it off right there. The quote goes on to basically state that he was comparing it to how back in the 60s the youth got politically active and protested, etc.

Again, he's dumb for saying it and it overlooks movements like OWS and BLM but I mean you look at youth voter turnout and it's like... "what the fuck guys? Voting is like the bare minimum of political involvement." I say this as a millenial. Our voter turnout sucks and it's inexcusable as the world is crumbling around us.

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Also talking what the candidates will do with health care to differentiate from each other is disengenuous.

Most of the things they say they want to do are pretty much things they can't do.

A not so bold prediction, some form of single payer system will pass one day, but Bernie Sanders will be long dead.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Here's a question then. What can Bernie offer to get black voters on board that he hasn't yet? What need is being left unaddressed IYO? This isn't a rhetorical question, I'm seriously curious.

Personally I think Bernie's main weakness is rhetorical, he doesn't really "get" it and at times he's even tone-deaf so he doesn't always land a connection. Biden dwarfs the guy on experience and outreach despite the lies and gaffes though so maybe that's a lost cause.

And I can't speak for the entire black community but the common thread I see is people want practical results to point to and not excuses they already know about like how the media is biased and the government is corrupt.

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https://www.realclearpolitics.com/docs/2020/Gonzales_Poll_Maryland_Dem_Primary_March_2020.pdf

New Maryland poll out today shows BERNIE UP 4 LETS GO PEOPLE IT ISN'T OVER

And let me just check the sample date...and...hm...let's see...

February 22-28. Well this was absolutely useless, thanks guys. Hey everyone, remember a week ago when there was HOPE and FUN and MEMES? Come take a look at this poll, which is an outdated relic of that era.

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Shut it down friends, King Delaney has spoken!:

https://twitter.com/johndelaney/status/1235955863657082882?s=21

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Listen here fat

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The final moderate infinity stone has been collected.

This should sway the two people that were going to still write in Delaney in Michigan, at least.

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that picture of delaney going down the (i assume in iowa) water slide with a completely flat expression may be the image of the primaries tbqh

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I thought John Delaney was...an entertainer of some kind? Am I thinking of someone else?

UshiromiyaEva posted...

*republican legislation

Hence, why he's electable.

I've thought Bernie was the most electable Dem this whole campaign but you guys are doing a good job at convincing me it's Biden.

Probably because I just checked and that was the first time "John Delaney" and "entertain" have ever been used in the same sentence.

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xp1337 posted...

While the latter has been super dumb on Biden's part. The full context on the former... I'm not defending it because it was still dumb of him to say... but it makes it less awful than if you cut it off right there. The quote goes on to basically state that he was comparing it to how back in the 60s the youth got politically active and protested, etc.

Again, he's dumb for saying it and it overlooks movements like OWS and BLM but I mean you look at youth voter turnout and it's like... "what the fuck guys? Voting is like the bare minimum of political involvement." I say this as a millenial. Our voter turnout sucks and it's inexcusable as the world is crumbling around us.

your explanation isn't making the quote any better tbqh. "millennials don't deserve empathy because they don't vote" is still fucking terrible.

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Who is the young white comedian who always talks in a wierd voice and wears a suit? He was very popular recently.

Mr Lasastryke posted...

your explanation isn't making the quote any better tbqh. "millennials don't deserve empathy because they don't vote" is still fucking terrible.

He's going after the Boomer vote. Trump will make him pay for it.

UshiromiyaEva posted...

Who is the young white comedian who always talks in a wierd voice and wears a suit? He was very popular recently.

John Mulaney?
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xp1337 posted...

Again, he's dumb for saying it and it overlooks movements like OWS and BLM but I mean you look at youth voter turnout and it's like... "what the fuck guys? Voting is like the bare minimum of political involvement." I say this as a millenial. Our voter turnout sucks and it's inexcusable as the world is crumbling around us.

Youth voter turnout sucks because the establishment controls everything. When you feel like your vote doesn't matter, you don't vote! Not a real shocker there. The establishment doesn't get that by controlling everything, they're losing future voters.

Suprak the Stud posted...

This should sway the two people that were going to still write in Delaney in Michigan, at least.

I didn't realize one of Delaney's daughters and LOTM lived in Michigan!

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That would be John Mulaney. He was still polling above John Delaney in Iowa, btw.

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Jakyl25 posted...

John Mulaney?

This is who I was thinking of, lol.

1. Yes, Biden has one of the strongest experience cases of anyone in America. Thats not sexist. (Coincidentally, Hillary Clinton also does and Id prefer her to Biden, but we fucked that up in 2016!)
2. The point Im making is that Biden already knows how to be president because he was VP. For anyone else there will be a learning curve. Biden not having to ramp up is a plus.
3. Again, anyone can build up relationships with foreign leaders, but already having strong bonds is a definite plus.
4. Biden will likely staff with veterans of the Obama admin, his former rivals, etc. Hes not going to staff based on the criteria of being most loyal to Joe. Hes not going to fill his staff with Republicans. Where are you even getting this stuff?
5. Biden got a lot more stuff passed than certain rivals of his :)
6. Biden has plans that he can actually realize. A plan doesnt do anyone any good if it cant get passed.
7. guess xp got this, but Im not trying to say Biden is perfect or that there isnt a case for anyone else. Im presenting a case for him which everyone keeps claiming doesnt exist. And Im sure some other people can make better cases than I can!

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