Current Events > Its official Tobacco-Buying Age has been raised to 21 nationwide in US.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Laserion posted...

I feel like these kind of not-directly-related things shouldn't be signed together. And I hear this happens all the time. Why not make them separate bills?

to get them passed

A lot of these bills wont get passed on their own
Tie them to something people DO want and you slide in unpopular shit
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Smoking is terrible overall, never met a smoker with good hygiene or that wasn't self-centered.

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Duncanwii posted...

Honestly the world is already too overpopulated so any policy that discourages population growth is fine in my book.

The world is not overpopulated

Resources are distributed very poorly which is the problem. We can sustain the current population numbers and more easily, we just choose to make them a problem because capitalism.


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El Mexicano Texano posted...

Smoking is terrible overall, never met a smoker with good hygiene or that wasn't self-centered.

Huh, weird. I don't smoke myself, but in these sort of threads it always seems far more like the non smokers tend to be the self-righteous ones...

AlisLandale posted...

You know, at this stage I dont understand why they dont say fuck it and just ban tobacco.

Not that it bothers me, but thats clearly the direction this is headed. Maybe in another 60 years. >_>

The reason why cartels are so powerful in Central America is because they supply the US with opioids and other illegal drugs with 0 competition. Banning drugs only strengthens the creators and distributors' control over the addicted. You'd need a police state, an totalitarian-esque government where you crack down on drugs to the point where people must be very, VERY afraid to touch it, a la the Philippines (was it there that the leader called Obama a son of a *****?). So this isn't impossible, but I doubt most people want to give up their freedoms for such a thing.

TheVipaGTS posted...

Yea I'd be down for raising the enlistment age too. A lot of the 18 year olds they get are teens just out of high school, didn't do well in high school, don't put much thought into college or anything else and just say "well, might as well do this"...even 20 would be good. Gives them a good two years post high school to potentially gain some work experience, think it through and make a more educated decision as opposed to instantly saying "Yea i was an average C student all throughout HS i'm on my way to enlist" immediately after graduation. Of course that will never happen because its hard enough for them to get enrollments as it is...might as well take advantage of the vulnerable members of the graduating class every summer.

Now that you put it that way. If I were the government, I'd never touch the enlistment age. You guarantee a steady stream of recruits and don't need to worry about potential good ones getting swayed by other opportunities as you got to them first. It sounds a bit cold, but you gotta do what you must to protect your sovereignty.

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mooreandrew58 posted...

Im fine with enlisting at 18 but unless its a world war 2 type war I think they should just train them and give them basic jobs within the military until they reach 21.

That is what they mostly do. Most jobs in the military aren't in direct combat. Especially if you go Navy or Air Force.

Navy has a lot of ITs, for example. They get some basic fundamentals training at A School, then on-the-job training at Sea or Shore duties, they can use NavyCOOL to earn a variety of certifications, or tuition assistance/GI Bill to go for a degree.

They also have electrical and mechanical engineers, nuclear engineers, foreign language translators, aviation mechanics, cooks, and so on.

Also, I'd like to point out that this is a downfall of representative democracy

No one affected by this got to vote on it directly, which is complete bullshit
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Esrac posted...

It's weird that you seem to assume it's mostly C-grade students or worse who enlist because they don't know what else to do or don't have better options.

I mean...he's not exactly wrong.

Most 18 year olds don't even understand our government enough to make an educated decision on whether it's worth dying for.

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MarqueeSeries posted...

Also, I'd like to point out that this is a downfall of representative democracy

No one affected by this got to vote on it directly, which is complete bullshit

We're a republic

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Villain posted...

We're a republic

he...he never said we weren't
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Villain posted...

MarqueeSeries posted...

Also, I'd like to point out that this is a downfall of representative democracy

No one affected by this got to vote on it directly, which is complete bullshit

We're a republic

Don't argue semantics with me

shockthemonkey posted...

MarqueeSeries posted...

Also, I'd like to point out that this is a downfall of representative democracy

No one affected by this got to vote on it directly, which is complete bullshit

This is exactly how representative democracy always works

That's my point
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@UnfairRepresent

It makes easy for older teens to spread them to underage kids at high school

Also Ciggarette companies should be shut down immediately and all their assets taken and used to pay costs/debts for their victims(a large amount of those suffering Mouth/throat/lung cancer/Gum disease) and services to help people quit.

A portion will be used to give the low level employees a saftey net to find new jobs. The high level ones can get fucked.

Those who sell ciggarettes/chewing tabacco and the like eat heavy fines and a prison sentence. This is aimed more at businesses and organized crime. Individuals who are doing it out of desperation will typically be pardoned entirely if they rat out their supplier as long as they didn't knowingly sell to minors.

Those who knowingly or through gross negligence sell to minors get charged with crimes against humanity(yes I am fucking serious) and get the book thrown at them.

Ciggarettes really need to be fucking banned as part of any healthcare plan.

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pikachupwnage posted...

@UnfairRepresent

It makes easy for older teens to spread them to underage kids at high school

Also Ciggarette companies should be shut down immediately and all their assets taken and used to pay costs/debts for their victims(a large amount of those suffering Mouth/throat/lung cancer/Gum disease) and services to help people quit.

A portion will be used to give the low level employees a saftey net to find new jobs. The high level ones can get fucked.

Those who sell ciggarettes/chewing tabacco and the like eat heavy fines and a prison sentence.

Those who knowingly or through gross negligence sell to minors get charged with crimes against humanity(yes I am fucking serious) and get the book thrown at them.

Ciggarettes really need to be fucking banned as part of any healthcare plan.

This is a freedom issue

"These are bad" and "someone might sell them to minors"
isnt enough to justify adults not having basic rights and responsibilities

These adults pay tax,they vote, they are held accountable for their actions. they should be allowed to smoke if they choose to
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Might as well just do what they proposed (haven't followed up to see if they approved it) in Russia - make the sale of cigarettes illegal for anyone born past X date. So people who smoke can still smoke, tobacco companies have time to redo their crops or w/e and try to get into other markets, and eventually it's just outright illegal.

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Only problem is that all the idiots who smoke started when they were like 13. Still, this is a move in the right direction.

UnfairRepresent posted...

This is a freedom issue

"These are bad" and "someone might sell them to minors"
isnt enough to justify adults not having basic rights and responsibilities

These adults pay tax,they vote, they are held accountable for their actions. they should be allowed to smoke if they choose to

Selling poison that inherently gets you addicted to being poisoned is not a freedom issue. Possession is legal...with caveats.

If you as an adult personally grow your own Tabacco, don't share it with anyone, accept that there should be HARSH penalties for selling it or allowing a minor access to it, and refuse to use any taxpayer services for your nigh inevitable tabacco related health issues...go ahead.

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I like Trump, but I don't agree with him here. Tobacco age should be 18, drinking age should be 18. You aren't a legal adult if you aren't afforded the privileges and responsibilities of an adult.

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Fuparulez posted...

I like Trump, but I don't agree with him here. Tobacco age should be 18, drinking age should be 18. You aren't a legal adult if you aren't afforded the privileges and responsibilities of an adult.

Tbh I am fine with the legal age of adulthood being 21. Brain development is continuing into your early-bird 20s and you have jack shit in real world experience/independence at 18.

Except for sex because as much as I think waiting till mid 20s is ideal....it would be an absolute clusterfuck to implement and would not be worth the effort to try to raise it.

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Fuparulez posted...

I like Trump, but I don't agree with him here. Tobacco age should be 18, drinking age should be 18. You aren't a legal adult if you aren't afforded the privileges and responsibilities of an adult.

This wasn't only Trump. It passed in Congress and Senate and then Trump signed it. Don't know the exact vote but something like this needs both side to make it through both Congress and Senate.

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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

I mean...he's not exactly wrong.

Most 18 year olds don't even understand our government enough to make an educated decision on whether it's worth dying for.

That's going to vary from person to person. My contention is with his implication that the military is mostly for dumb kids who couldn't hack it in school and had no chance at college. When the military is actually a good option for getting access to that additional training, certification, experience, and education.

Tobacco smoking is the lowest it's ever been, making it illegal until 21 isn't as big a deal today as it would had been 30 years ago. Also helps that a bunch of states already made it 21, just like making pot federally legal in a few years won't be as big a deal as it would had been in the past.

Is it weird that the main reason I'm happy about this is because it means those stupid "I'm old enough to X, why can't I Y" arguments will become ever so slightly less common?

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If you're old enough to go to war, you're old enough to smoke/drink
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Esrac posted...

That's going to vary from person to person. My contention is with his implication that the military is mostly for dumb kids who couldn't hack it in school and had no chance at college. When the military is actually a good option for getting access to that additional training, certification, experience, and education.

Well, I mean I suppose it is an option

Willingly supporting the American military is not one I would call good even if you get something out of it

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bknight posted...

Tobacco smoking is the lowest it's ever been, making it illegal until 21 isn't as big a deal today as it would had been 30 years ago. Also helps that a bunch of states already made it 21, just like making pot federally legal in a few years won't be as big a deal as it would had been in the past.

Is that accounting for the transition to vaping?

QueenCarly posted...

Well, I mean I suppose it is an option

Willingly supporting the American military is not one I would call good even if you get something out of it

I would disagree with you on that, but I don't imagine an argument on whether we should support the US military or not would change either of our minds.

Should just ban cigs and deregulate e-cigs tbh. It's a disgusting habit and teenagers that do it smell the worst.

De Evolution posted...

Less freedom is good

Fuck tobacco, you and I were taught in school that inhaling smoke is dangerous and all of a sudden we have people inhaling the cheapest cigarettes they could find, wasting thousands a year in some cases and ending up with serious health issues.

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again, most people start smoking at younger ages and get hooked into adulthood. they don't start at adulthood. For a few months some HS students already are 18, still going to school with minors. even after they graduate Some 18 and 19 year olds are still friends with the now 16 and 17 year olds they went to school with. They still have that HS mentality while being friends with those people...this is one (very easy) way kids get their hands on Cigarettes and get hooked. There is a reason Joe Camel was a thing. the Cig companies know this. Until it was made illegal their main focus was to try to get kids in ways like this and get them addicted to nicotine. Raising the age to 21 can significantly cut into that which is a good thing. You can argue (this is a freedom issue) all you want, but that's not the only factor that is to be considered when things like this are discussed. There is no "right to smoke cigarettes" just because you're an adult. "you can vote but you can't smoke a cig!?", yes....you can also vote but not get into certain clubs.

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pikachupwnage posted...

Selling poison that inherently gets you addicted to being poisoned is not a freedom issue. Possession is legal...with caveats.

Coca-Cola is poison

You could spend all day eating cheeseburgers, cheesecake, cheese pizza and drinking glasses of melted cheese

That's a bad idea, I oppose that you do it.

But I cant make it illegal to buy those products because YOU make poor decisions

that should not be the role of government
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TheVipaGTS posted...

again, most people start smoking at younger ages and get hooked into adulthood. they don't start at adulthood. For a few months some HS students already are 18, still going to school with minors. even after they graduate Some 18 and 19 year olds are still friends with the now 16 and 17 year olds they went to school with. They still have that HS mentality while being friends with those people...this is one (very easy) way kids get their hands on Cigarettes and get hooked. There is a reason Joe Camel was a thing. the Cig companies know this. Until it was made illegal their main focus was to try to get kids in ways like this and get them addicted to nicotine. Raising the age to 21 can significantly cut into that which is a good thing. You can argue (this is a freedom issue) all you want, but that's not the only factor that is to be considered when things like this are discussed. There is no "right to smoke cigarettes" just because you're an adult. "you can vote but you can't smoke a cig!?", yes....you can also vote but not get into certain clubs.

top post in topic

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Difference is as far as I am aware it's not your government banning you from "certain clubs"

and if they do then I oppose it too

If a shopkeeper refuses to sell cigs to under 21s that's up to the shop

You're taking away freedom and justifying it via bad actors

That's an awful thing to do and a slippery slope
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shockthemonkey posted...

Yeah! Fuck the government existing! We need 6 year old coal miners smoking a pack a day!

This is an awful strawman even by your own standards
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If I was a dictator, the sale of cigs would be banned, and tobacco execs and marketers would be in jail yesterday. They've destroyed so many lives by spewing a deadly, addictive, and utterly useless product. They've imposed a huge burden on our healthcare system. They've cost society hugely in productivity. They market to vulnerable teens so that they'll pick up an expensive, deadly lifelong habit.

People talk about freedom on this issue, but there's a lot of things you're not allowed to do, even to yourself. You're not allowed to shoot yourself in the temple. You're not allowed to choose to die even when every day of your life is pure pain. You're not allowed to pour toxic fumes on the street. But smoking slowly kills you and those around you, mostly because addiction makes not doing it feel bad.

Anyone who makes doing that their primary business is a sociopath who has well and truly earned jail more than anyone other than a murder or rapist.

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Guide posted...

Some of those are actually good, someone give him a biscuit.

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Hell yeah, limited government!!!!!!!!!!!! #MAGA

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QueenCarly posted...

The world is not overpopulated

Lol, look at this guy. ^_^

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Will this be the highest it will be?

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Duncanwii posted...

Lol, look at this guy. ^_^

It isn't. https://www.pop.org/debunking-the-myth-of-overpopulation/

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nice face duncan lol

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UnfairRepresent posted...

pikachupwnage posted...

Selling poison that inherently gets you addicted to being poisoned is not a freedom issue. Possession is legal...with caveats.

Coca-Cola is poison

You could spend all day eating cheeseburgers, cheesecake, cheese pizza and drinking glasses of melted cheese

That's a bad idea, I oppose that you do it.

But I cant make it illegal to buy those products because YOU make poor decisions

that should not be the role of government

I fully agree with this

There's a lot of things that are terrible for you, but it shouldnt be the government's job to dictate the individual on such matters
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When it comes to things like Cheeseburgers and Fries, i agree, it is a personal choice. And eating too much of it can cause problems...But things like Cigarettes are designed to get people addicted with no other benefit at all. If I'm cautious about my diet and how much i eat, i can go to McDonalds and have a big mac combo twice a week even and still be fine. Plus, Even if the nutritional content isn't stellar, its still doing something positive to me. its sustaining me. You just have to watch how much you eat with regard to fat and sugar.

What does a Cigarette do for me that's positive? same can be said for alcohol. I know standard nicotine withdrawals aren't as bad as with other drugs, or even alcohol, but "cheeseburger" withdrawal isn't a thing. Yea, people can get addicted in the sense that they always want to have one and its all they want to eat....but Nicotine, Ethanol...Those things actually fuck with your brain chemistry to the point where if you take too much and then don't have it, your body gets fucked up. People don't start to involuntarily shake because they can't have a whopper. So i don't think its fair to compare the two.

With everything mentioned here is all about responsibility and moderation, But what benefit do cigarettes serve? Even alcohol doesn't have a benefit but you could argue that its better than cigs because if you're able to moderate it it can be fun for a good time with no major affect on your body....just like a trip to McDonalds. Difference is the Trip to McDonalds, if done responsibly, at least gives your body SOME nourishment. the other two don't, can have very serious affects on your body chemistry/organs, especially at a young age, offer absolutely no potential benefits at all, and thus, have age limits as a result.

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TheVipaGTS posted...

But things like Cigarettes are designed to get people addicted with no other benefit at all.

What does a Cigarette do for me that's positive?

, But what benefit do cigarettes serve?

IT feels good. Makes people happier and calmer and enjoy their lives. It can help people bond and make new relationships.

Same as video games, movies, junk food etc.

You going "i don't like it" doesn't mean the government gets to remove personal choice.

I don't like weird creepy hentai movies and they serve no purpose beyond people enjoying them, I'm not going to call for the government to ban them because I don't like them.

You do you.
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Nice. You can join the military and be sent overseas to murder foreign people, but god forbid you have a cigarette to help with the stress of that.

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I never liked the argument of personal choice when there's an industry dedicated manipulating and swaying people into buying things, i.e. the marketing industry. Without the education and discipline, people have A LOT less control and resilience than they realize.

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ScazarMeltex posted...

Nice. You can join the military and be sent overseas to murder foreign people, but god forbid you have a cigarette to help with the stress of that.

two wrongs always did make a right.

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