Current Events > The Force Awakens is not a worse movie than TLJ

(+) Yeah! (+)

It has moments that are a bit meh, but Rey is a sweet kid with a bunch of good knowledge about tech who channels that knowledge and limited experience with the Force to strike a good balance between absolute goodness and saving those who are important to the world, Finn has an interesting cowardice arc where he redeems himself against the might of the Empire and picks up a fucking lightsaber to defend the cause, Poe is a pretty flash ace who might have benefitted from a more hands-on lesson than Holdo's "fly-boy" stuff, and while I don't hate Rose, Rian didn't have to introduce a new member to the fellowship like he did.

Rey didn't even want Luke's lightsaber. She was content being a scavenger recognised for her scavenging talents. It's only when fate led her to the blade that she began to take it seriously. But the common discourse is that she was a random Mary Sue who knew exactly what needed to be done.

The thing is that even if The Force
Awakens was a bit underwritten, it was a decent return to the sci-fi fantasy roots of the franchise. The prequels masked the tale of a man who wanted to shoot lightning out of his hands, with that of a Sith Lord who worked for years to wield absolute control over the galactic council to kill all of the good guys. All of this, so that he could eventually shoot lightning out of his hands like an asshole. Star Wars has always been a solid "rebels vs authority" story, and now you have Star Wars fans who are buttmad about someone like Rey having enough force compatibility to combat a wimpy kid, a joke of a fascist and a fleet of nearsighted cult members. Even with the weaker portions of the fanbase, I don't see how people can actively root for the bad guy because a woman, a black guy and a harshly treated flyboy are more relatable to people compare from a group who literally commit genocide.

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It's not but it's very safe.

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Does anyone argue this point?

Solid Sonic posted...

It's not but it's very safe.

After the prequel series I think it was a great idea to tread closely to the older movies. But they might just play it too safe in the end. That's respectable, even as I think TFA is a decent enough flick on its own.

Even with its flaws, though, TFA is a decent enough movie compared to TLJ. And that movie has a very solid ending, and a few solid concepts to it - just marred by Marvel level writing and a few "subverted expectations" for the sake of a joke that throw this entire new trilogy into disarray.

Even as someone who wants to see the world's most toxic nerds rip each other apart, TLJ was a crummy Space Fantasy film.

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Unknown5uspect posted...

Does anyone argue this point?

Apparently TFA is a cinematic abortion on par with Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull. That's been the rage for a good decade and a half now.


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Episode VIII is crap because they threw everything on its ear and didn't really do it sensibly.

VII is okay, VIII is a mess, IX will be soul-crushing.

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It's not worse than TLJ but at the end of the day that isn't saying much.

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Solid Sonic posted...

Episode VIII is crap because they threw everything on its ear and didn't really do it sensibly.

VII is okay, VIII is a mess, IX will be soul-crushing.

i can accept this. Let's come back to this thread once we see IX to measure our responses

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I've grown to really detest this dramatic way of framing a reaction to entertainment

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TFA isn't bad or anything. It introduced some good new characters and the new music was good, but that's about all i got out of it. TLJ took those characters and told a good story with them. It wasn't just going through the motions like TFA. Give me TLJ any day

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A good way to put it is that I like TLJ more because it is influenced by the same stuff that influenced Lucas in the beginning (ancient mythology, Kurosawa), where TFA comes off as mostly drawing from Star Wars greatest hits

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ledbowman posted...

TLJ took those characters and told a good story with them.

two space ships chasing each other for 3 hours is a good story?

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ALIEN_WORK2HOP posted...

two space ships chasing each other for 3 hours is a good story?

It might be a decent story if the conflict wasn't "let me be a good pilot!", contrasted with "you don't follow rules and i don't like that, I'm gonna let you fart around while your pals are missing for an hour, when they get back I'll finally tell you my plans but only when it's most convenient to commit suicide for the cause".

The Holdo event was cool, but with a little more openness this event could have been enacted on a smaller scale. I don't know - as much as I've enjoyed and defended TLJ for the lols, the franchise can't continue on the back of this shit alone.

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ALIEN_WORK2HOP posted...

two space ships chasing each other for 3 hours is a good story?

That would have been fine if the drama wasn't FAKED the entire time and was just being used to set up Holdo sacrificing herself.

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Iran Johnson ruined my venerable toy franchise, but at least he didn't ruin the cereal like JRPG Abrams did. Apparently, the third movie completely destroys the marshmallows and replaces the real chocolate with chocolate flavoring.

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Solid Sonic posted...

That would have been fine

Doubt.

I'm sober now.

I still wholeheartedly believe that The Force Awakens was a good movie, and it trumps The Last Jedi on all levels.

The action is better, the humor is better, the banter and dialogue is better, the original characters are better. The movie is shaky at points, but it feels a lot better paced and it's a solid action flick that brought that classic Star Wars fantasy back to the franchise.

All that The Last Jedi does is take what TFA set up, only to throw it in the garbage for shits and giggles. In a way I like how much it set the fandom butt-babies off - I'm not a particularly huge Star Wars fan, and these guys have made everything about them for the last 5+ years. But as a movie in a franchise, it's fucked everything up. The tone is inconsistent, the level of humor comes out of nowhere, the whole movie is 2 and a half hours of absolutely nothing getting done.

You would have to be fucking insane to say, without a doubt in your heart, that The Force Awakens is a worse movie than The Last Jedi.

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This is like saying eating cat shit is not worse then eating dog shit. Either way its still shit.

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The Force Awakens is a good yet too safe movie

The Last Jedi is just a failure of a film

Actually, while I'm here - I don't out-and-out hate Rose Tico, I think if they're gonna add her to the team she can be alright. But I can only say, on every level of my being, that creating her to be a love interest to Finn was a fucking TERRIBLE idea.

Look at The Force Awakens, Finn and Rey clearly have a thing going on for each other. Finn has a good arc in that movie, running away from the First Order only to return and fight for what's right. At the end, he picks up a lightsaber and defends Rey with his life, getting critically wounded in the process. Throughout that entire movie they have flirty banter, and they set each other up and support each other - culminating in Finn's critical injury. Rey kisses him on the forehead before she goes off to find Luke Skywalker.

Next movie - John Boyega walks around in a bubble suit for laughs, goes on an adventure with a random engineer, and somehow this rando who he has zero chemistry with is meant to be his big romantic interest. What the fuck.

The only thing I can say is that Rose kissed Finn, and in this last movie there's some wiggle room for Finn to either rekindle his friendship with Rey and/or establish that he's not interested in Rose. Again, I don't hate Rose Tico. But Finn and Rey had such great chemistry in the Force Awakens, and it's downright baffling to me that they had to introduce a whole-ass new character to serve as his official love interest. Who the actual, ever-loving flying fuck came up with that?

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Force Awakens is a good movie. Period.

Better than Last Jedi in every way.

Last Jedi has one moment in it that I think is better than TFA's best moments and that's the throne room confrontation where Rey and Kylo join forces and tease an alliance. That's ruined right away and the rest of the movie sucks ass, but that like...4 or 5 minutes is pretty exciting.

But yeah. Force Awakens is safe and pulls in too many call backs from the previous movies (I could take them all besides the Death Star again. That was one too much.) but it's still no worse than a 7.

Last Jedi pissing on multiple things set up in TFA has really swayed people into thinking TFA was bad retroactively.

(PS. Rogue One was fucking trash)

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Gamerguymass posted...

This is like saying eating cat shit is not worse then eating dog shit. Either way its still shit.

It really isn't shit, though. It might not be as good as the original trilogy, I won't deny that, but The Force Awakens is a pretty good sci-fi fantasy movie. It's got good characters, fun dialogue, good action and excellent music. To reduce The Force Awakens down to dog shit is hyperbolic bullshit. Even TLJ has its moments of greatness, but that's a movie I can understand people being particularly pissed off about and I'm not gonna lose sleep over people calling it a shitty movie.

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MrMallard posted...

It really isn't shit, though. It might not be as good as the original trilogy, I won't deny that, but The Force Awakens is a pretty good sci-fi fantasy movie. It's got good characters, fun dialogue, good action and excellent music. To reduce The Force Awakens down to dog shit is hyperbolic bullshit. Even TLJ has its moments of greatness, but that's a movie I can understand people being particularly pissed off about and I'm not gonna lose sleep over people calling it a shitty movie.

You can think it's a good sci-fi fantasy movie all you want, but it's still a shitty Star Wars movie. Hence why the movies are referred to by many people as Disney Wars. They aren't Star Wars, they are fan fiction. The Force Awakens is literally what you would get if you let a ten year old write a Star Wars movie.

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Gamerguymass posted...

You can think it's a good sci-fi fantasy movie all you want, but it's still a shitty Star Wars movie. Hence why the movies are referred to by many people as Disney Wars. They aren't Star Wars, they are fan fiction. The Force Awakens is literally what you would get if you let a ten year old write a Star Wars movie.

It's not though...

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MrMallard posted...

All that The Last Jedi does is take what TFA set up, only to throw it in the garbage for shits and giggles.

Sorry but this is dumb and wrong. Where do yall get this shit

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Doom_Art posted...

I've grown to really detest this dramatic way of framing a reaction to entertainment

People can't seem to have a simple view on any subject anymore. What's one more?

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ledbowman posted...

Sorry but this is dumb and wrong. Where do yall get this shit

That comment was a bit hyperbolic, but it is a big part of what the movie does. I actually liked Luke's characterisation, the movie picks up a lot after Holdo does the light speed ram, and even the more awkward parts of the movie tend to at least be trying something cool. Hell, with a bit of trimming, I think Canto Bight would be alright. I don't like people who baselessly trash the whole movie, just as much as I don't like people who call it one of the best Star Wars movies.

I might be a bit hyperbolic at times, but for what it's worth I am a bit more open to discussing TLJ without shutting down all opposing viewpoints. But the hill that I choose to die on is that The Last Jedi was not as good of a movie as The Force Awakens.

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