Board 8 > Scorsese's op-ed on "Marvel is not cinema" comments

(+) Yeah! (+)

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Lopen posted...

Or in other words we'll arbitrarily reduce the number of movies that fall into the "cinema" umbrella to win arguments until the word loses any sort of meaning that anyone should give a crap about to begin with

Was it worth it. What did it cost you?

grow up

Yep, there it is.

Nothing to see here, folks.
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KingButz posted...

There's a difference between design by a creative committee of filmmakers/production staff and design by marketing/finance execs

My hot take on this is that even this is fine if executed competently by the creative team. Not ideal, but people do pull it off.

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I mean it's funny because I think the "laugh track" metaphor is spot on despite the needlessly dismissive "grow up"

It's just then if you're actually thinking about the metaphor you're making, you gotta realize that in a metaphor the thing scorsese is taking umbrage with is the laugh track, and saying any comedy is not ~ARTISTIC COMEDY HUH HUH MY LEXICON~ if it has a laugh track.

So why is a Marvel Movie Two and a Half Men and not Seinfeld?
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Maybe one day MCU fans will grow up and realize how hollow these films are and will watch something truly great like Parasite!

if the whole point of this was "auteur movies are so much better than studio movies" i think that's a rather shallow point. even if i might agree to a certain extent - no MCU movie touches tarantino's pulp fiction or lynch's mulholland drive or godard's breathless or kubrick's 2001: a space odyssey - there's still plenty of MCU movies that i like a lot. a good movie is a good movie regardless of how it was made.

also, another one of my favorite movies of all time - scorsese's own goodfellas - was based on a book and co-written by scorsese and the author of the book, so...? if scorsese cares so much about "a singular artistic vision," i guess we can't praise that film too much either.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

It's an important distinction to make. It sort of reminds me of people who watch shows like Two and a Half Men and don't realize they are being manipulated by the laugh track. Maybe one day MCU fans will grow up and realize how hollow these films are and will watch something truly great like Parasite!

Not taking part in this argument but just wanted to say that Parasite was amazing

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https://i.imgur.com/TfsvpbN.png
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Scorsese is clearly flawed on a bunch of points, but I'd ask him what's required to be considered the work of one auteur.

Does it need to have been fully written, directed, scored and subsequently edited by one person? Since all of those people have a direct hand in the creative drive of a film.

Because if so, the number of movies that count as "cinema" is perishingly low.
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I agree with his point but I think he misses the mark by blaming comic book movies. The casual throngs dont care about his take. The nerds (us) who love comic book movies are going to resent his take. Hes also sorta missing cable television (if you can even really think of it that way anymore) taking over where artistic cinema dropped off.

He romanticizes the theater experience a bit. I dont blame him. I feel like thats ultimately what is really his core issue. I kinda think that comic book movies save theaters in general as opposed to ruining the business for everyone else.
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bad movies have existed forever

rote blockbusters have been raking in the cash for almost as long

it can feel unfair to pick on a particular series, but movies that aren't doing anything new or teaching me about the human experience just aren't very interesting.

Sure, i can go in the theaters and hook myself up to the drip of another formulaic action romp that will have the low point at 87 minutes and the penultimate victory at 103. i could go grind levels in destiny for 2 hours and have a good time, too. but destiny isn't cinema.

The marvel universe as a whole is a really interesting concept. The individual movies aren't particularly exceptional, but they can hit some good notes of nostalgia, emotion and humor from time to time. It's not like they shouldn't exist. But it's not like the film Dr. Strange speaks to the human condition at all.
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neonreaper posted...

He romanticizes the theater experience a bit. I dont blame him. I feel like thats ultimately what is really his core issue. I kinda think that comic book movies save theaters in general as opposed to ruining the business for everyone else.

Nailed it

In an age of streaming and home theaters, the only reason TO go to the cinema is for spectacle

He says

The equation has flipped and streaming has become the primary delivery system. Still, I dont know a single filmmaker who doesnt want to design films for the big screen, to be projected before audiences in theaters.

And that is absurd to me. He and the others he speaks of are so hung up on the delivery medium that they dont realize that the only reason the theater medium even exists is because of pre-television legacy

If HDTVs were around at the turn of the 20th century, movie theaters would have never become as widespread as they were.
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Lopen posted...

Like are you trying to argue that nothing that's a sequel to well received movie can be cinema? Because that sounds a lot like what's being argued.

Is Terminator 2 not Cinema due to the success of the first one?
How about The Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Jedi?
How about The Two Towers or Return of the King?
Is Logan not cinema because of the X-Men franchise?

Not necessarily but I think the majority of people would agree that most sequels lose artistic merit somewhat, especially if they're made at the behest of the studio. There are certainly remakes/new entries in a franchise where the artistic quality comes through, Joker being one of them imo.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Nailed itIn an age of streaming and home theaters, the only reason TO go to the cinema is for spectacle

And I don't think he adequately addressed what I'd imagine is a large generational gap. How do I get a young person to care about the latest Martin Scorsese film on Netflix? I sympathize with Scorsese because his experience is the cinema cycle of hype and marketing and reviews and cinema traffic followed by rentals and home sales.

Now it's probably just Netflix giving someone a big wad of cash and then his movie showing up in the Netflix Originals New Release row for a few weeks. How do you reach someone that doesn't go to the theater and doesn't watch commercials and they are always staring at on-demand entertainment/social content on their phones? It's not Disney's fault.
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neonreaper posted...

And I don't think he adequately addressed what I'd imagine is a large generational gap. How do I get a young person to care about the latest Martin Scorsese film on Netflix? I sympathize with Scorsese because his experience is the cinema cycle of hype and marketing and reviews and cinema traffic followed by rentals and home sales.

Now it's probably just Netflix giving someone a big wad of cash and then his movie showing up in the Netflix Originals New Release row for a few weeks. How do you reach someone that doesn't go to the theater and doesn't watch commercials and they are always staring at on-demand entertainment/social content on their phones? It's not Disney's fault.

I dunno, I get this to a degree but also art snobs and hipsters exist regardless of generation. People, even "young people" still willingly seek out niche media. It just might not be Socesese films, though! But even those still have some audience if Netflix is willing to dump money into it.

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Lopen posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

I think it was very clinically manufactured in order to sell tickets to Endgame, rather than an artistic decision.

I think there are a lot less risky ways to do that that don't tank Endgame's ticket sales in the least. You basically got all the legwork you needed for hyping tickets when you spent a dozen movies worth of hype building to that one moment and put "Part 2" on it. For as many people that get a bit more hyped, there are angry parents that don't want to take their kids to Endgame. If it was truly about being safe, cutting a bit before the big battle would have been much easier.

I think the point he was making is that there was nothing "risky" about IW's ending in the slightest, which is correct

It's an awesome ending, but anyone who thinks that it's shocking or creative or actually dark is exactly the type of shill that Scorsese is talking about probably

I haven't seen any movies in genre or with that kind of mainstream appeal where the villain just wins. It was shocking to end it there yes. There were much safer places to end it.

Like I know it's cool to just be elitist but it's kinda just hot air without counter examples, which I notice you didn't provide due to being too busy fellating yourself over your elite tastes.
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Lopen posted...

I haven't seen any movies in genre or with that kind of mainstream appeal where the villain just wins. It was shocking to end it there yes. There were much safer places to end it.

Like I know it's cool to just be elitist but it's kinda just hot air without counter examples, which I notice you didn't provide due to being too busy fellating yourself over your elite tastes.

...Empire Strikes Back?

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Lopen posted...

I haven't seen any movies in genre or with that kind of mainstream appeal where the villain just wins. It was shocking to end it there yes. There were much safer places to end it.

Like I know it's cool to just be elitist but it's kinda just hot air without counter examples, which I notice you didn't provide due to being too busy fellating yourself over your elite tastes.

Yes ending a movie that everyone already knew was going to be in two parts at a low point was totally original and shocking! It's almost as if it didn't follow the exact same structure of a 3-act narrative if you place the two films together!
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it's a shocker when the villain wins in a movie with no sequel. when there's a direct sequel announced, not so much.
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anyone who left infinity war thinking thanos "won" wasn't paying attention. doctor strange literally says all of it has to happen in order for thanos to be beaten.
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ok boomer
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I mean there were definitely ways to end that movie in a much more conservative way that still gives you a cliffhanger and 3 act structure and whatnot.

Like I said children were literally crying. Coming out of a family friendly film series and having that happen is shocking for sure. Empire Strikes Back does not really compare in terms of gravity.
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i mean, i do agree that for a multi-billion dollar movie it's a pretty unusual ending. in the source material, the snap isn't used as a climactic moment at all. when i watched it in theaters, i definitely remember being like "huh, we're ending it here? ok then."

i wouldn't go so far as to call it shocking, but it's not super formulaic either.
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Not saying it's a total mindblower or anything but it's a risky move that imo was done for artistic vision reasons and not to maximize profits because a committee did research and said "oh, yeah, we need to end it right HERE that'll put the butts in the seats.
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Lopen posted...

Not saying it's a total mindblower or anything but it's a risky move that imo was done for artistic vision reasons and not to maximize profits because a committee did research and said "oh, yeah, we need to end it right HERE that'll put the butts in the seats.

Your opinion is incorrect
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And your opinion is based on a circular logic argument so yeah
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No Lopen, Marvel knew before the films came out that people were desperate for Ant Man and Captain Marvel and Black Panther over the hundreds of other relative no-name comic book characters. The decisions weren't chosen with a spark of creativity at all.

Every single decision Marvel has made since The Incredible Hulk has been algorithmic and 100% focus tested fro before the writing stage and Seph knows that because he has seen the paychecks.
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GildedFool posted...

Every single decision Marvel has made since The Incredible Hulk has been algorithmic and 100% focus tested fro before the writing stage and Seph knows that because he has seen the paychecks.

This was literally a public business strategy by Disney.
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GildedFool posted...

No Lopen, Marvel knew before the films came out that people were desperate for Ant Man and Captain Marvel and Black Panther over the hundreds of other relative no-name comic book characters. The decisions weren't chosen with a spark of creativity at all.

i wouldn't say ant-man and black panther are "relative no-name characters." ant-man was one of the founding members of the avengers and black panther was the first black superhero ever. sure, they're not A-tier characters (like spider-man) but i'd say they're solidly B-tier.

captain marvel is a pretty no-name character, sure, but making a movie about her was still safe because it had the "OMG it's the first female superhero movie in the MCU" buzz.
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All of the avengers were originally c-tier superheroes, oddly enough!

It was a comic with a rotating, ensemble cast that marvel would throw all of their superheroes not popular enough to support their own comic into

Periodically they'd try to boost ratings by giving someone like spider-man, wolverine, or a fantastic four member double duty, but anyone whose only regular appearances were in the avengers were fodder for a very long time
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banananor posted...

It was a comic with a rotating, ensemble cast that marvel would throw all of their superheroes not popular enough to support their own comic into

uh... maybe my knowledge of comics history is rusty but i'm pretty sure the latter part of this is bullshit. i think when the avengers first appeared, four out of the five had their own titles (iron man, thor, hulk and ant-man). wasp was the only one who didn't have her own title, IIRC.
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It's true of 70s and 80s Avengers for sure.
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i can agree with that. particularly the '70s.
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The change comes when marquee writers become the selling point and they can dictate the teams. Busiek comes to mind as the tipping point.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

captain marvel is a pretty no-name character, sure, but making a movie about her was still safe because it had the "OMG it's the first female superhero movie in the MCU" buzz.

Even more safe - Carol Danvers has been Captain Marvel since 2014 and they took so long to actually put the movie out that she became popular in the interim. Before that, Ms Marvel was REALLY popular and Marvel wanted to capitalize on the whole brand. Kind of a no-brainer, really.

I mean I read the initial post as sincere because I don't think Ant Man, Black Panther, or Captain Marvel are very risky or creative choices at all. The production side of BP is, though. The riskiest things Marvel has done are still the original Iron Man and Guardians.

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Risky would be like making Doom Patrol or Preacher or something that is loved but only by a small audience.
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If it were many other franchises, Infinity Gauntlet would have been 3 movies not 2, at least we got the right amount of movie for that story.

You could argue that we got a decade of that storyline but please dont
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I wish Stan Lee was still here to tell him whatsup.
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Stan Lee was a phenomenal idea man.

Scorsese is an extremely talented storyteller.
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Not saying one is better than the other. But Stan Lee would educate him on all things Marvel.
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I'm definitely saying one is better than the other.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

I'm definitely saying one is better than the other.

It's Stan Lee, right? The movies he made are all so much better than anything this Scorcese guy worked on. (Probably anyway, I don't have time to watch obscure art films that nobody has ever seen.)
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Xeybozn posted...

It's Stan Lee, right? The movies he made are all so much better than anything this Scorcese guy worked on. (Probably anyway, I don't have time to watch obscure art films that nobody has ever seen.)

Your troll game is off.
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SwiftyDC posted...

I wish Stan Lee was still here to tell him whatsup.

Lol

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