Poll of the Day > How are lootboxes any different from those overpriced TCG booster packs of yore?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Honest question as I've never bought or even so much as played a game with loot boxes in it. From what I gather though the "problem" with them seems kinda like the probably hundreds of dollars I begged for/blew my allowance on concerning Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon card packs.

Both are mystery boxes where you can get duplicates, and the "rush" of opening them to see what you got is a big part of the appeal. Isn't that what people are arguing the government should step in to regulate? Wait am I thinking of gacha games now? Never played one of those either so I don't know if that's the same there too.
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well for starters one is physical media that you can trade and sell at your own discretion and actually MAKE money off of and the other is purely digital and mostly cosmetic
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With TCG you're getting physical merchandise I guess?
It's even worse when it's limited time events or in full priced games IMO.

I'm not huge on them, but the non-time limited f2p ones don't feel quite so bad? IDK

Another thing is possibility to add in after the fact. Someone could be trying to avoid them, take control and responsibility, and it be added in to a game later that they bought under the assumption that it wasn't in it.

Also, not always but... the prices on some are above a booster pack and you get one thing from it. One digital thing.

Noop_Noop posted...

well for starters one is physical media that you can trade and sell at your own discretion and actually MAKE money off of and the other is purely digital and mostly cosmetic

Beat me to the physical thing there. lol

Noop_Noop posted...

well for starters one is physical media that you can trade and sell at your own discretion and actually MAKE money off of and the other is purely digital and mostly cosmetic

You can make money off of opening loot boxes too though, can't you? I think that's a thing on YouTube.
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Lootboxes needs to go away.
They have ruined so many games. This is why most AAA games nowadays are a joke.
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LeetCheet posted...

Lootboxes needs to go away.

Lootboxes aren't all that bad until the companies use them to rip off the customers. But considering how game companies are, them going away would just be for the best.
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AllstarSniper32 posted...

Lootboxes aren't all that bad until the companies use them to rip off the customers. But considering how game companies are, them going away would just be for the best.

they are the same
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cards
gun skins in cs:go have a secondary market
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CCGs have resale value, afaik lootboxes generally do not.
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To answer your question, they aren't.

In fact I think the TCG packs are exploitative too. The LCG format that Netrunner used proved that card games don't need to indulge in lootbox bullshit.

Aaantlion posted...

CCGs have resale value, afaik lootboxes generally do not.

This makes CCGs worse.

yeah, they keep being compared to gambling, but they're really a lot more like buying packs of trading cards (game or otherwise).

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Sahuagin posted...

yeah, they keep being compared to gambling, but they're really a lot more like buying packs of trading cards (game or otherwise).

People and especially children can develop gambling-like addictive behaviours from them though.
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LeetCheet posted...

People and especially children can develop gambling-like addictive behaviours from them though.

well, I just mean that if loot boxes are bad, then so are trading card packs. or, at least I'd like to hear a solid argument as to why they're not the same thing.

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Sahuagin posted...

or, at least I'd like to hear a solid argument as to why they're not the same thing.

There's already been posts in this topic explaining how they are different so go read those.
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Sahuagin posted...

LeetCheet posted...

People and especially children can develop gambling-like addictive behaviours from them though.

well, I just mean that if loot boxes are bad, then so are trading card packs. or, at least I'd like to hear a solid argument as to why they're not the same thing.

They are bad as well but they were not as accessible as in-game lootboxes which is why they haven't recieved the same attention lootboxes recieve today.

At least for me, buying a pack of pokemon cards meant getting someone to take me to the store to buy them and them actually having to acknowledge how many they are buying for me.

But with online lootboxes there are no such limitations.
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Electronic transactions where no currency is exchanged and no direct adult supervision is required create an area where kids may not even realize they are spending money, they just believe it to be part of the game.

Most kids realize going into a store requires money whereas some areas of the internet charge money and others do not.
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Noop_Noop posted...

well for starters one is physical media that you can trade and sell at your own discretion and actually MAKE money off of and the other is purely digital and mostly cosmetic

this guy gets it, ok?
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-Cards have enough resale value that you can usually recover most - if not all - of your investment if you buy a significant number of packs and sell the ones you don't want
-Cards are paid for using real money, not an intermediate currency designed to obscure how much is being paid
-In the case of non-cosmetic stuff, game companies have much more ability to manipulate demand for loot boxes (e.g. through increasing grindiness or engineering social pressure, the latter of which also applies to cosmetics)
-Cards make up the entire game in the case of TCG's, as opposed to being a mechanic that has been tacked on to a different game (which, again, makes it easier to manipulate demand)

Despite these differences, though, this whole loot box thing has indeed been cause to take a look at TCG's and blind box figures and anything else that uses "surprise mechanics" to make a product more appealing. Looking closer, a good many of them do seem to be predatory and manipulative in exactly the same way as loot boxes are, which could justify also placing regulations on them like those that are placed on gambling. The long-term consequence of pushing to have loot boxes regulated will likely to be to also regulate some of those, due to the logical similarities, and I'm actually okay with that.

Quite simply, if a product is going to profit off of the same psychological manipulations that make gambling profitable, it should be subject to the same regulations that limit gambling's ability to harm people.
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One thing people are forgetting. Lootboxes have "fanfare" when opened. Opening a pack of cards doesnt.

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Noop_Noop posted...

well for starters one is physical media that you can trade and sell at your own discretion and actually MAKE money off of and the other is purely digital and mostly cosmetic

While I usually like physical items, isnt the cosmetic part good? It takes away the P2W type thing. Which trading cards kind of were...

AllstarSniper32 posted...

Sahuagin posted...

or, at least I'd like to hear a solid argument as to why they're not the same thing.

There's already been posts in this topic explaining how they are different so go read those.

Are you sure. The only thing Insaw was that they were physical and had trading value. But neither of those really combat the fact that both can cause the same type of gambling addictions...

Ogurisama posted...

One thing people are forgetting. Lootboxes have "fanfare" when opened. Opening a pack of cards doesnt.

You have to make your own...
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I've seen game companies defend loot boxes by saying they're just like TCG, which isn't gambling, and the opposite, that loot boxes aren't gambling because there is no chance at real monetary return, which TCG's have, as you can sell cards, even if it's just pennies for the common ones.

Loot boxes are basically casinos people put money in but the casino never has to pay out.
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LinkPizza posted...

You have to make your own...

Even so, the fanfare with lootboxes have been compared to slotmachines

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AllstarSniper32 posted...

There's already been posts in this topic explaining how they are different so go read those.

well, let's see. lots of people said they were the same, and one guy said being physical VS being electronic is a difference, which is pretty weak, and then someone else said you can still trade electronic loot in some cases. so, what's the difference?

really, they're the same thing: buying a 'grab bag' of goodies without knowing what's in it, with the possibility of getting something great VS getting nothing interesting so you want to try again.

I'm looking for a really significant difference: something that would make one gambling and the other not gambling.

(not really sold on it either way at the moment, but I do think that if loot boxes are gambling then so are trading card packs, and if trading card packs are not gambling, then neither are loot boxes.)

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Dreaming_King posted...

Honest question

Gambling.
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Sahuagin posted...

well, let's see. lots of people said they were the same, and one guy said being physical VS being electronic is a difference, which is pretty weak, and then someone else said you can still trade electronic loot in some cases. so, what's the difference?

really, they're the same thing: buying a 'grab bag' of goodies without knowing what's in it, with the possibility of getting something great VS getting nothing interesting so you want to try again.

I'm looking for a really significant difference: something that would make one gambling and the other not gambling.

(not really sold on it either way at the moment, but I do think that if loot boxes are gambling then so are trading card packs, and if trading card packs are not gambling, then neither are loot boxes.)

Not sure if you read what I said, but the fanfare with lootboxes vs cards
Lootboxes have all the sounds and graphics akin to winning a slotmachine or video poker etc. One of the big things that studies of shown is the fancy displays when you win causes the addiction. All the stimulus they give releases lots of dopamine.
TCG or other physical random collectibles dont have a such thing, as they are just opening a box or plastic packaging. Not giving you as much dopamine. Making it less likely to get an addiction from it.

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The difference is in, say, a game like Overwatch, if you just play long enough, you have a fairly high chance of actually getting everything without spending extra money, and everything is account bound.

In Pokemon TCG, cards actually have real world value, and you can easily make profit on a pack if you know what you're doing.

TCGs are an investment. Loot boxes are just gambling. But worse, gambling where you mostly can't get anything of value from it. Imagine if when you put a dollar into a slot machine, and you hit the jackpot. But instead of paying out in dollars, it pays out in Casino Bucks that can only be used at the casino and can't be converted back into dollars, so it really doesn't have any value. That's what a loot box is. Which, btw, that is EXTREMELY illegal.
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Real talk here, how many kids do you guys honestly think actually make any money off the cards they bought/had bought for them as a kid?

Like I said, I probably had hundreds of dollars worth at one time or another but I can't tell you where a single one of them is today. I don't think I'm an outlier with that experience either. Even if a kid does keep them, how many will keep them in well enough condition to sell down the road, or will bother to do the research necessary to maximize their profits? We're probably talking less than 1% here. TCG cards aren't made or sold to be an investment, they aren't stocks or something.
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Zangulus posted...

I sold my card collections for over $3000 between them.

Cool, I'm sure there's some clickbait youtube channel that opens overwatch lootboxes that could say the same. Either way there are far more people like me that you when it comes to the fate of their cards.
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Dreaming_King posted...

Real talk here, how many kids do you guys honestly think actually make any money off the cards they bought/had bought for them as a kid?

IDK about making money or not, but I guess a lot of people do technically. Most I know. Because most people I've known have sold cards, so if they didn't buy them it's technically pure profit for them.

In all seriousness, a lot pf people sell them. Especially now..

Dreaming_King posted...

Real talk here, how many kids do you guys honestly think actually make any money off the cards they bought/had bought for them as a kid?

Like I said, I probably had hundreds of dollars worth at one time or another but I can't tell you where a single one of them is today. I don't think I'm an outlier with that experience either. Even if a kid does keep them, how many will keep them in well enough condition to sell down the road, or will bother to do the research necessary to maximize their profits? We're probably talking less than 1% here. TCG cards aren't made or sold to be an investment, they aren't stocks or something.

Most kids I knew sold/traded them with other kids not so much saving them thinking theyd get big bucks one day for the whole collection. This would honestly make lootboxes suck less. A market for people to sell (for in game currency id assume) or trade unwanted prizes they got in one.

Hes a outlier but I remember one kid who made a "business" out of selling pokemon cards. He had a pricing system and everything. Think it was 50 cents for common a dollar for uncommon and rares well thats where the prices started to vary more. Though he wasnt gonna sell you his charizard or anything like that.
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ChaosAzeroth posted...

Dreaming_King posted...

Real talk here, how many kids do you guys honestly think actually make any money off the cards they bought/had bought for them as a kid?

IDK about making money or not, but I guess a lot of people do technically. Most I know. Because most people I've known have sold cards, so if they didn't buy them it's technically pure profit for them.

In all seriousness, a lot pf people sell them. Especially now..

I see some selling, but usually not for much. Well, normally. I saw a lot of people who didnt feel like holding onto their cards anymore (some years ago) and sold them. They made a little money. But probably not all the money they spent on cards over the year. I also know plenty of people who have either given their cards away or just have them, still. Im sure there are plenty of people who have made money selling cards. But there are enough people who make money opening lootboxes. Especially in a game like Overwatch, where you get them for free for playing the game... And you can get them fast if youre good...
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Ogurisama posted...

Not sure if you read what I said, but the fanfare with lootboxes vs cards
Lootboxes have all the sounds and graphics akin to winning a slotmachine or video poker etc. One of the big things that studies of shown is the fancy displays when you win causes the addiction. All the stimulus they give releases lots of dopamine.
TCG or other physical random collectibles dont have a such thing, as they are just opening a box or plastic packaging. Not giving you as much dopamine. Making it less likely to get an addiction from it.

so "fanfare" is enough to turn something that isn't gambling into gambling? are you basically saying that to qualify as gambling it has to be addictive "enough" (whatever "enough" is), and that fanfare pushes something that's below the threshold for gambling (trading cards) to something that's above the threshold (loot boxes)?

it sure seems like a really blurry gray area to me. personally I think I'm leaning towards saying that trading cards are a form of gambling. chance is involved, and you're paying money for something of unknown value. and when you don't get what you want, your only option is to pay more money for more chances. it's a misuse of the whole system. that's not a proper way to conduct business; it's more like a scam.

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