Board 8 > English Literature Mafia Topic 17: The Climax?!

(+) Yeah! (+)

I think SBell and Lopen are starting to sound like they're upset that their scumbuddy wasn't as strong as they think they should be

Anybody else wanna weigh in? Did b8 change how they handle bus drivers and stuff in the last few years?
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Lea3Lea posted...

Sheep007 posted...

I'm sorry to disappoint, Lea.

I haven't been keeping up with what's actually happened beyond lynches. 17 bloody topics...

I have no idea what to think about Voldemort as a town claim, Tom but I can assume that my slot already claimed flavour since I'm Harry Potter and that'd be a bit of a coincidence. Don't know anything about flavour of the game as a whole so I can't really apply it to guessing other's roles.

Also I ran a Harry Potter Mafia a few years back so this is kinda neat to roll.

Luckily we have two guilty scans so you just need to decide if you trust an uncountered cop claim or not in this situation!

Okay, that's kinda neat too. Ben scanned both Pez and Death guilty, I guess from the topic so far? Any other investigative roles claimed?
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I'll just say it Sheep. I'm pretty sure you're the real cop. The way Hb immediately didn't believe Ben's claim, and you're glaringly out of theme as far as flavor goes with the rest of the vanillas.

I think you can do more for town by countering here, even if your scans aren't helpful.
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Sheep007 posted...

Nobody died last night either, what happened with that (or is thought to have happened)?

Allegedly, Lolo bodyguarded (5tar? Not sure if this was ever explicitly stated) successfully and Corrik used his role to delay Lolo's death to tonight.
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Tom Bombadil posted...

I think SBell and Lopen are starting to sound like they're upset that their scumbuddy wasn't as strong as they think they should be

Anybody else wanna weigh in? Did b8 change how they handle bus drivers and stuff in the last few years?

Again, Host discretion.

Stop trying to damage an argument with something you can't prove either way.

Look I can do this too.

Sounds like scum Tom is upset we are trying to lynch his powerful scum buddy.
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Sheep007 posted...

Lea3Lea posted...

Sheep007 posted...

I'm sorry to disappoint, Lea.

I haven't been keeping up with what's actually happened beyond lynches. 17 bloody topics...

I have no idea what to think about Voldemort as a town claim, Tom but I can assume that my slot already claimed flavour since I'm Harry Potter and that'd be a bit of a coincidence. Don't know anything about flavour of the game as a whole so I can't really apply it to guessing other's roles.

Also I ran a Harry Potter Mafia a few years back so this is kinda neat to roll.

Luckily we have two guilty scans so you just need to decide if you trust an uncountered cop claim or not in this situation!

Okay, that's kinda neat too. Ben scanned both Pez and Death guilty, I guess from the topic so far? Any other investigative roles claimed?

5tar is flavor scanner and we buy that because he buried Red in townlike fashion. He has cleared Ulti and you.
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Obellisk posted...

Stop trying to damage an argument with something you can't prove either way.

Stop making poor assumptions and I'll stop attacking them.
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Tom Bombadil posted...

Obellisk posted...

Stop trying to damage an argument with something you can't prove either way.

Stop making poor assumptions and I'll stop attacking them.

I'm making a smart play to avoid any possible variables that might exist.
You would have us throw caution to the wind and lynch death over pez.

You are bad at this.

(the fact you do not believe Ben is not a factor at the moment please do not loop back to that)
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Lopen posted...

I'll just say it Sheep. I'm pretty sure you're the real cop. The way Hb immediately didn't believe Ben's claim, and you're glaringly out of theme as far as flavor goes with the rest of the vanillas.

I think you can do more for town by countering here, even if your scans aren't helpful.

Yeah sorry but no. Vanilla. Wish I was something a bit more fun, though.

Tom Bombadil posted...

Sheep007 posted...

Nobody died last night either, what happened with that (or is thought to have happened)?

Allegedly, Lolo bodyguarded (5tar? Not sure if this was ever explicitly stated) successfully and Corrik used his role to delay Lolo's death to tonight.

Gotcha. Corrik delays any actions taken on his target by one night with his role, then? Did he claim x-use or every night?
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I will agree with Lopen that claiming now would be helpful if you're not vanilla (applies to everybody else too)
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Okay, well if you are cop, the scum certainly knows now, even if they didn't know before, so rest in peace with your scans if so
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Obellisk posted...

I'm making a smart play to avoid any possible variables that might exist.
You would have us throw caution to the wind and lynch death over pez.

I'm making a play to lynch the guy I think is more likely to be scum.
You would have us shut our brains off and follow scans blindly to the point that you're more worried about a .5% chance that's only valid in one of several scenarios than who, y'know, actually seems more like scum.

Obellisk posted...

the fact you do not believe Ben is not a factor at the momen

It's a pretty major factor actually. If you assume Ben is telling the truth then your argument is a good bit more reasonable (but still the wrong way to look at things I think)
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Okay I sorta see why Cop might not be bought now, since flavour seems to be villainous characters or things on scum side, and two roles that are basically cops may be unlikely.
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Lopen posted...

Okay, well if you are cop, the scum certainly knows now, even if they didn't know before, so rest in peace with your scans if so

Why do you refuse to believe that there is no counter.

Why aren't you more likely to believe flavor cop and cop can't exist together than to think cop is still in hiding and this cop is bunk
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Sheep007 posted...

Gotcha. Corrik delays any actions taken on his target by one night with his role, then? Did he claim x-use or every night?

Death only IIRC. I think every night? But he can't delay a death more than once (IE he can't postpone Lolo's death again tonight)
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Tom Bombadil posted...

Obellisk posted...

I'm making a smart play to avoid any possible variables that might exist.
You would have us throw caution to the wind and lynch death over pez.

I'm making a play to lynch the guy I think is more likely to be scum.
You would have us shut our brains off and follow scans blindly to the point that you're more worried about a .5% chance that's only valid in one of several scenarios than who, y'know, actually seems more like scum.

Obellisk posted...

the fact you do not believe Ben is not a factor at the momen

It's a pretty major factor actually. If you assume Ben is telling the truth then your argument is a good bit more reasonable (but still the wrong way to look at things I think)

OK I think we are getting somewhere.

Tom, if at end of day it's clear Ben is not dying, will you lynch scan 2 over scan 1. Let's say it's a tie between them and you are the tiebreaker.

Lynch the guy that might have been a redirect or lynch the guy that definitely wasn't a redirect.
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The read was based on Hb's reaction to the claim and every other vanilla in the game being a very minor character. Thinking there can't be two scanners is just pointless game balance speculation that I'm not interested in given I don't know the setup.
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Sheep007 posted...

Okay I sorta see why Cop might not be bought now, since flavour seems to be villainous characters or things on scum side, and two roles that are basically cops may be unlikely.

The other thing is we have a whole lotta protection and other weird stuff running around. Two cops at this size isn't weird in a vaccuum but we have

-Lolo is (probably) Bodyguard
-Corrik is (somewhat probably) Chronomancer
-Mayor and Kingmaker are flipped
-I'm (claimed) Thumb Biter (can redirect target player's action to myself)
all that plus flavor scanner AND straight up Cop seems a bit much to me
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Lopen posted...

I'll just say it Sheep. I'm pretty sure you're the real cop. The way Hb immediately didn't believe Ben's claim, and you're glaringly out of theme as far as flavor goes with the rest of the vanillas.

I think you can do more for town by countering here, even if your scans aren't helpful.

Oh my God just stop already
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Obellisk posted...

Tom, if at end of day it's clear Ben is not dying, will you lynch scan 2 over scan 1. Let's say it's a tie between them and you are the tiebreaker.

My vote is already on Death so there's your answer.

Ben is telling the truth:
-99% chance they're both scum and this doesn't matter
-1% chance only Pez is scum

Ben is lying:
-His scans don't matter and we should be lynching the one who's scummier.
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Lopen posted...

The read was based on Hb's reaction to the claim and every other vanilla in the game being a very minor character. Thinking there can't be two scanners is just pointless game balance speculation that I'm not interested in given I don't know the setup.

Petra isn't a minor character and I can't think of an English book that doesn't use letters, personally. I like how you're willing to use flavour meta but not balance meta (which has far, far more of a basis).
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Balance meta only applies if we know all the roles. This includes scum and independents

We know all the flavor claims so it better applies. Some are lying of course but you can see themes forming.
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Tom Bombadil posted...

Sheep007 posted...

Okay I sorta see why Cop might not be bought now, since flavour seems to be villainous characters or things on scum side, and two roles that are basically cops may be unlikely.

The other thing is we have a whole lotta protection and other weird stuff running around. Two cops at this size isn't weird in a vaccuum but we have

-Lolo is (probably) Bodyguard
-Corrik is (somewhat probably) Chronomancer
-Mayor and Kingmaker are flipped
-I'm (claimed) Thumb Biter (can redirect target player's action to myself)
all that plus flavor scanner AND straight up Cop seems a bit much to me

Not necessarily any problems there if scum are strong. Someone said everyone has claimed, earlier, was that correct?
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o ya go my petra

Lopen how do you feel about Cam then
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Lopen is constantly trying to discredit me by projecting his own manipulations on me. And not just trying to logic through the game naturally. "There are other town powers in the vanillas that are lying and waiting to counter Ben so he's lying"

How am I supposed to not assume you're scum Lopen
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Sheep007 posted...

Tom Bombadil posted...

Sheep007 posted...

Okay I sorta see why Cop might not be bought now, since flavour seems to be villainous characters or things on scum side, and two roles that are basically cops may be unlikely.

The other thing is we have a whole lotta protection and other weird stuff running around. Two cops at this size isn't weird in a vaccuum but we have

-Lolo is (probably) Bodyguard
-Corrik is (somewhat probably) Chronomancer
-Mayor and Kingmaker are flipped
-I'm (claimed) Thumb Biter (can redirect target player's action to myself)
all that plus flavor scanner AND straight up Cop seems a bit much to me

Not necessarily any problems there if scum are strong. Someone said everyone has claimed, earlier, was that correct?

Yep everybody else is claimed nilla unless I'm having a brain fart
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Tom Bombadil posted...

Obellisk posted...

Tom, if at end of day it's clear Ben is not dying, will you lynch scan 2 over scan 1. Let's say it's a tie between them and you are the tiebreaker.

My vote is already on Death so there's your answer.

Ben is telling the truth:
-99% chance they're both scum and this doesn't matter
-1% chance only Pez is scum

Ben is lying:
-His scans don't matter and we should be lynching the one who's scummier.

You are proving my point.
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I would support lynching Cam over the cop scans
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The likelihood that Pez is town and Death isn't is greater than the likelihood that scum redirected Ben N1 for no reason AND Han randomly decided to change how scans work AND Ben lied about it
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benjamin3740 posted...

Lopen is constantly trying to discredit me by projecting his own manipulations on me. And not just trying to logic through the game naturally. "There are other town powers in the vanillas that are lying and waiting to counter Ben so he's lying"

How am I supposed to not assume you're scum Lopen

benjamin3740 posted...

Lopen is constantly trying to discredit me by projecting his own manipulations on me. And not just trying to logic through the game naturally. "There are other town powers in the vanillas that are lying and waiting to counter Ben so he's lying"

How am I supposed to not assume you're scum Lopen

If you are town and cop you have grossly misplayed cop at every step and you should be blaming yourself for my suspicion
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Lopen posted...

Balance meta only applies if we know all the roles. This includes scum and independents

We know all the flavor claims so it better applies. Some are lying of course but you can see themes forming.

Not really. If there's a watcher, tracker and cop claimed in a game this size with a protection role it's almost impossible they're all telling the truth, for it to be balanced. You're going off probability of course, but it's more useful than something an experienced host like Han would absolutely manipulate.
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One or two scanners could be balanced, though. It's nothing so glaring
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I'll give you a hypothetical, SBell. Ben has claimed no scans. Would you rather lynch Pez or Death in that vaccuum? With what confidence?
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Lopen posted...

benjamin3740 posted...

Lopen is constantly trying to discredit me by projecting his own manipulations on me. And not just trying to logic through the game naturally. "There are other town powers in the vanillas that are lying and waiting to counter Ben so he's lying"

How am I supposed to not assume you're scum Lopen

benjamin3740 posted...

Lopen is constantly trying to discredit me by projecting his own manipulations on me. And not just trying to logic through the game naturally. "There are other town powers in the vanillas that are lying and waiting to counter Ben so he's lying"

How am I supposed to not assume you're scum Lopen

If you are town and cop you have grossly misplayed cop at every step and you should be blaming yourself for my suspicion

How did Ben claim, and play Cop exactly? When did he claim and what were the exact circumstances around it? If I know around when in terms of topics that'd be great too or instead.

Gonna be off for about an hour or so then will return til end of day.
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Lopen posted...

benjamin3740 posted...

Lopen is constantly trying to discredit me by projecting his own manipulations on me. And not just trying to logic through the game naturally. "There are other town powers in the vanillas that are lying and waiting to counter Ben so he's lying"

How am I supposed to not assume you're scum Lopen

benjamin3740 posted...

Lopen is constantly trying to discredit me by projecting his own manipulations on me. And not just trying to logic through the game naturally. "There are other town powers in the vanillas that are lying and waiting to counter Ben so he's lying"

How am I supposed to not assume you're scum Lopen

If you are town and cop you have grossly misplayed cop at every step and you should be blaming yourself for my suspicion

Again, you're either lying to us or to yourself
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Sheep007 posted...

How did Ben claim, and play Cop exactly? When did he claim and what were the exact circumstances around it? If I know around when in terms of topics that'd be great too or instead.

Towards beginning of this day (last topic I think?). He dragged it out very theatrically, announcing one scan at a time over the course of several hours. First he said he had three guilty scans, and after people (Lopen and you, IIRC) doubted that, said that he had a clean scan on me last night. No previous breadcrumbs. He posted a journal of his thoughts going into each scan. Opinions are split over how well his reasoning and claims match up with his posts from previous days. I think I am about to head out so I can't grab posts for you but Corrik did an ISO in there somewhere, mostly in Ben's defense.
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I was way off his claim starts at 14-332
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Sheep007 posted...

How did Ben claim, and play Cop exactly? When did he claim and what were the exact circumstances around it? If I know around when in terms of topics that'd be great too or instead.

He claimed about the beginning of today

- He stalled gratuitously, first claiming 3 scum scans, then revising to 2
- Did not just reveal his scum scans yesterday when we had already lynched 2 scum. This is exceptionally poor play considering town was ahead and that if he's town him going to the grave with those scans would be terrible, in addition to being able to avert a town lynch.
- His third scan doesn't follow from his natural suspect lists except one, whereas a guy who was on all of his suspect lists was not scanned (and his justification for now trusting him is that one of his suspects lynched town over him and his attitude-- which has been the same all game)
- Made no push on any of his scanned scum targets. In fact actively avoided engaging Death as scummy.
- Pointedly did not claim until after the flavor scanner revealed their scan for the day
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Also his "journal" entries don't really touch on relevant events in the days and just read as overdramatic fanfiction
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Lopen posted...

Made no push on any of his scanned scum targets. In fact actively avoided engaging Death as scummy.

hey he did make a (pretty weak) push on pez!
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One more thing about Ben I don't like. He seems to be waffling on whether I'm scum or an idiot in his rebuttals. It feels a lot like red's weak push on me early game. Like, he really wanted to say I was scum but didn't have the guts because I have a bit too much town trust to risk that one.

Has been a lot more attacking me than justifying himself in general, really
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Tom Bombadil posted...

Sheep007 posted...

Okay I sorta see why Cop might not be bought now, since flavour seems to be villainous characters or things on scum side, and two roles that are basically cops may be unlikely.

The other thing is we have a whole lotta protection and other weird stuff running around. Two cops at this size isn't weird in a vaccuum but we have

-Lolo is (probably) Bodyguard
-Corrik is (somewhat probably) Chronomancer
-Mayor and Kingmaker are flipped
-I'm (claimed) Thumb Biter (can redirect target player's action to myself
all that plus flavor scanner AND straight up Cop seems a bit much to me

Not even close. Two good scanners or 3 weak ones in 21. Depending on scum comp, but it's safe to assume it's decent with 1.5 redirectors / strongman / extra kill.
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I don't see a scenario where Ben would have been killed in any nights based on how the game went. But, Ben, were u rly gonna take guilty scans to your grave?
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Lopen posted...

I would support lynching Cam over the cop scans

Nopr
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Corrik7 posted...

Tom Bombadil posted...

Sheep007 posted...

Okay I sorta see why Cop might not be bought now, since flavour seems to be villainous characters or things on scum side, and two roles that are basically cops may be unlikely.

The other thing is we have a whole lotta protection and other weird stuff running around. Two cops at this size isn't weird in a vaccuum but we have

-Lolo is (probably) Bodyguard
-Corrik is (somewhat probably) Chronomancer
-Mayor and Kingmaker are flipped
-I'm (claimed) Thumb Biter (can redirect target player's action to myself
all that plus flavor scanner AND straight up Cop seems a bit much to me

Not even close. Two good scanners or 3 weak ones in 21. Depending on scum comp, but it's safe to assume it's decent with 1.5 redirectors / strongman / extra kill.

why are you assuming strongman AND extra kill? Didn't your claim only cover strongman? Also I think it's important to look at more than the number of scanners (ie, the non-scanners)
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Tom Bombadil posted...

Corrik7 posted...

Tom Bombadil posted...

Sheep007 posted...

Okay I sorta see why Cop might not be bought now, since flavour seems to be villainous characters or things on scum side, and two roles that are basically cops may be unlikely.

The other thing is we have a whole lotta protection and other weird stuff running around. Two cops at this size isn't weird in a vaccuum but we have

-Lolo is (probably) Bodyguard
-Corrik is (somewhat probably) Chronomancer
-Mayor and Kingmaker are flipped
-I'm (claimed) Thumb Biter (can redirect target player's action to myself
all that plus flavor scanner AND straight up Cop seems a bit much to me

Not even close. Two good scanners or 3 weak ones in 21. Depending on scum comp, but it's safe to assume it's decent with 1.5 redirectors / strongman / extra kill.

why are you assuming strongman AND extra kill? Didn't your claim only cover strongman? Also I think it's important to look at more than the number of scanners (ie, the non-scanners)

Night 1 they killed scare and shot Chris with a strongman.

Strongman can be a multiplier or an extra kill. I am stating it was an extra kill + multiplier.
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Multiplier = modifier.
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Why would you scan someone you really thought was scum? There's already reasons to lynch them clearly. Better to scan people you have no real bead on imo

All that is happening is circular arguing. Let's just Lynch Death and get the flip and go from there. I am ready to play with scum on the night actions.
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Obellisk posted...

You are proving my point.

IFF Ben is 100% confirmed Cop, I will grant you that Pez would be the smarter choice by the narrowest of margins. But, he's nowhere near 100% confirmed. I'm more worried about the, say
60% chance he's lying x 20% chance Pez is town and Death is scum
over the, say,
40% chance he's telling the truth x 5% chance he got redirected x 1% chance Han did redirection differently than it's always been done x 1% chance Ben lied about it because ???
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