Board 8 > English Literature Mafia Topic 17: The Climax?!

(+) Yeah! (+)

Lopen posted...

benjamin3740 posted...

Gonna have to see the specific vote Mzero made that made you go "oh Mzero is likely town"

MZero being mindlessly parked on by you and Lea was what made me think he's town, mostly. Not any specific vote he made

Specific votes he didn't make are important, however. Scum generally has an agenda when other scum are involved in a lynch or near the end of day. MZero had none of that working against him.

So instead of deciding that me and Lea were wrong and Mzero is town you decided that Mzero is town because we're wrong?

Great. I believe in most mafia communities that's called "backwards"
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Lopen posted...

Also none of this says why you thought he was more likely to be scum than Death.

I didn't think that. I had death as confirmed scum
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Lost the game
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Corrik7 posted...

Mayor and Kingmaker can be negative roles. They can rob town of a Lynch and assure a lynch is a mislynch.

But they also have components that make them weak docs/cops. They are generally town confirming which is the purpose of a cop. And Mayor prevents a death, which is the purpose of a Doc.

But even if you disagree with me on those connections. The overall setup I've argued is one that forces you to rely largely on reads and less on town power. It's not just that I think town has a lot of power if you include Ben. It's that I think Ben as cop changes the setup from forcing town to rely on reads and frankly scum to rely on reads too because they have to try to out think 3 different protectors each night. To one where town can essentially force out extra scans. Adding a traditional cop to this game changes the meta behind the setup a great deal.

Oh I got mega ninja d

Still lost tho
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benjamin3740 posted...

So instead of deciding that me and Lea were wrong and Mzero is town you decided that Mzero is town because we're wrong?

It was not that you were wrong but how you were wrong. The argument had no substance and you kept going to it. It felt like he was a safe park for scum to fake committing to something without committing to it.

benjamin3740 posted...

I didn't think that. I had death as confirmed scum

Then why not pursue him over MZero and later scan MZero? You have failed to put much meat on the bone of MZero aside from trying to claim that anyone thinking he's town has no credibility.
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Perhaps Mzero wouldn't have been lynched yesterday if anyone actually addressed why the arguments were flawed instead of saying "I think Mzero is town because you're trying to lynch him. Anyway! Not bitter at all!

The arguments were flawed because they applied equally if not more so to other people which had been completely ignored. This was said yesterday.
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Corrik7 posted...

Lopen posted...

Death is not the one that doesnt make sense as a scan it's Tom. Has always been Tom

If you re-read it makes sense on Tom also. Tho, he seemed less certain on tom's.

He doesn't like their interaction together.

I stated pez's lack of shoving the teammates bs down our throats all game like he did as town was why he looked scummier. He looked like he needed a "non roommate power" read on Tom to remain flexible on him.

I have shoved the roommates down your throat all game though? I just quit using the phrase roommate powers. Like I pretty much declared Tom as town D1. I went after Sultan because he missed I said that and missed that 5tar had somewhat agreed and that Chris had his own reasoning. I went hard on Red for ignoring Tom's talk about SK and me. That was all D1.

D2 I came back to a fake watcher claim by Red and a small train on Tom. I called the train stupid and started searching for scum who was on the train or scum who was mentioning Tom looked scummy. This bridged D2 and D3.

D3 I had figured out Tom was power and probably protection. I posted my exact thoughts on this D4 when we mass claimed.

So, I admit that the ISO of the word roommate would be different from this game to the previous one. But I don't think I've done any less with it than last game. Also different, Tom is not scum.

I can't put my finger on it, but Ben seems different to what I'm used to with him based upon his limited posts so far.

Also I'm sad I only just realised someone else claimed Voldemort Miller cause that was a glorious chance to claim neighbour and hope he rolled with it.
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Sheep007 posted...

I can't put my finger on it, but Ben seems different to what I'm used to with him based upon his limited posts so far.

Also I'm sad I only just realised someone else claimed Voldemort Miller cause that was a glorious chance to claim neighbour and hope he rolled with it.

He didn't claim miller. We had to tell him his role was a flavor miller. His role in PM is just like yours TOWN Villager. He actually thought 5tar was scum for awhile bussing Red because his role "disproved" the flavor split and therefore made 5tar "useless"

DrPez posted...

Sheep007 posted...

I can't put my finger on it, but Ben seems different to what I'm used to with him based upon his limited posts so far.

Also I'm sad I only just realised someone else claimed Voldemort Miller cause that was a glorious chance to claim neighbour and hope he rolled with it.

He didn't claim miller. We had to tell him his role was a flavor miller. His role in PM is just like yours TOWN Villager. He actually thought 5tar was scum for awhile bussing Red because his role "disproved" the flavor split and therefore made 5tar "useless"

How new is he and has he had a fat *obvious town* sticker on him the past few days if the answer is "quite new".
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Sheep007 posted...

DrPez posted...

Sheep007 posted...

I can't put my finger on it, but Ben seems different to what I'm used to with him based upon his limited posts so far.

Also I'm sad I only just realised someone else claimed Voldemort Miller cause that was a glorious chance to claim neighbour and hope he rolled with it.

He didn't claim miller. We had to tell him his role was a flavor miller. His role in PM is just like yours TOWN Villager. He actually thought 5tar was scum for awhile bussing Red because his role "disproved" the flavor split and therefore made 5tar "useless"

How new is he and has he had a fat *obvious town* sticker on him the past few days if the answer is "quite new".

Third game with us. And very very very obvious town since day 1 yes
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Sheep007 posted...

DrPez posted...

Sheep007 posted...

I can't put my finger on it, but Ben seems different to what I'm used to with him based upon his limited posts so far.

Also I'm sad I only just realised someone else claimed Voldemort Miller cause that was a glorious chance to claim neighbour and hope he rolled with it.

He didn't claim miller. We had to tell him his role was a flavor miller. His role in PM is just like yours TOWN Villager. He actually thought 5tar was scum for awhile bussing Red because his role "disproved" the flavor split and therefore made 5tar "useless"

How new is he and has he had a fat *obvious town* sticker on him the past few days if the answer is "quite new".

He played werewolves on other sites I think? So he's new to B8 meta, but not new to the concept of the game that Tom and I just lost.

Lopen posted...

benjamin3740 posted...

I didn't think that. I had death as confirmed scum

Then why not pursue him over MZero and later scan MZero? You have failed to put much meat on the bone of MZero aside from trying to claim that anyone thinking he's town has no credibility.

By the way Ben I would like an answer on this. You've been avoiding it.
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Cam has played like 2000 mafia games allegedly, just not here

Y'all just made me lose the game guys

Ben, aside from the guilty scans, who are your scumreads? Did you say SBell was one yesterday and is that still the case?
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DrPez posted...

Sheep007 posted...

I can't put my finger on it, but Ben seems different to what I'm used to with him based upon his limited posts so far.

Also I'm sad I only just realised someone else claimed Voldemort Miller cause that was a glorious chance to claim neighbour and hope he rolled with it.

He didn't claim miller. We had to tell him his role was a flavor miller. His role in PM is just like yours TOWN Villager. He actually thought 5tar was scum for awhile bussing Red because his role "disproved" the flavor split and therefore made 5tar "useless"

If Cam is Town

Oh hey sheep, sad that we had to meet on such an unpleasant day
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turbopuns3 posted...

Cam has played like 2000 mafia games allegedly, just not here

He understands virtually none of our play style or meta or terminology
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I'm not gone yet but I don't know how much more I'll be around today. Don't try to figure out my Target if I flip as I am actively avoiding dropping hints (and haven't actually decided who to go for yet in the first place)

I maintain that death is the best choice today but wouldn't be too broken up over Ben or pez or certain nilla claims. Mainly just don't go 5tar or Lolo or ulti (not that anybody was gonna)
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htaeD posted...

Oh hey sheep, sad that we had to meet on such an unpleasant day

Yo

Anything that hasn't recently been said to convince me that I should vote Ben over you?

Also, for everyone else, what's the argument for the order of lynching Death/Pez? The vote seems to be split and I read something based on them being power and honestly I am very lazy today since I didn't expect to be in this game.
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It's basically a total coin flip. I don't believe there's a good argument one way or the other.

Tom Bombadil posted...

I also think I am the only one specifically pushing Death > Pez and most people are just kinda along for the ride. If Death is Maf Nilla and Pez is Maf Power and there's no godfather flip you have my permission to hold that against me after all this is done >_>

Tom Bombadil posted...

Tom Bombadil posted...

er I'm confusing myself

I don't find it likely that
-Ben is town cop
-AND EITHER He got a redirect n1 AND Han straight up lied to him
-OR Pez is more valuable than Death to the scumteam
-AND Scum is sticking their necks out to jump on that

I didn't say I don't care whether it's scum power or scum vanilla, I don't think everything that has to happen for one of your theories to be right is likely enough that I am worried about it more than I'm worried about Pez seeming townish.

These were the posts I was on about.

If it really is a coin flip then I'm inclined to vote Pez in that case just cause I like Death and I know if he's Town (no matter how small the chance for either) he'd be valuable in the last few days whereas I don't really know that about Pez.
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Sheep007 posted...

htaeD posted...

Oh hey sheep, sad that we had to meet on such an unpleasant day

Yo

Anything that hasn't recently been said to convince me that I should vote Ben over you?

Also, for everyone else, what's the argument for the order of lynching Death/Pez? The vote seems to be split and I read something based on them being power and honestly I am very lazy today since I didn't expect to be in this game.

My death (or Pez' I guess... maybe) would say more than words ever could.
I can tell you that we are ahead far enough to afford such a waste.
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Lea3Lea posted...

Hey Death, you should probably vote Pez. The pro-ben votes way out number the anti-ben votes, even if they're currently split. To you, Pez may or may not be scum but you % know you're not scum, right?

Just a friendly late night voting strat from your pal Lea

Same to Pez, I guess, who explicitly doesn't think Ben is scum

Lea3Lea posted...

Lea3Lea posted...

Hey Death, you should probably vote Pez. The pro-ben votes way out number the anti-ben votes, even if they're currently split. To you, Pez may or may not be scum but you % know you're not scum, right?

Just a friendly late night voting strat from your pal Lea

Same to Pez, I guess, who explicitly doesn't think Ben is scum

And he is reconciling that... How, exactly? Ben is fakeclaiming town?
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Yup, that's his stance

Well I was feeling a little shaky on Ben but when the arguments from his scans are him being fakeclaiming town and to just rollover and die I don't see a good enough reason to do anything except pick one to lynch.
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Sheep007 posted...

These were the posts I was on about.

If it really is a coin flip then I'm inclined to vote Pez in that case just cause I like Death and I know if he's Town (no matter how small the chance for either) he'd be valuable in the last few days whereas I don't really know that about Pez.

It's not likely to matter a whole lot. SBell is worried that Ben got redirected N1 without knowing about it, and thus Pez makes more sense to lynch since it eliminates that factor. (redirector was dead...wait was backup even dead at that point tho) My counterargument is that that chain of events has a negligible possibility of happening (especially since I don't super buy Ben to begin with, but also because that's not how redirection tends to work here and redirector targeting a claimed nilla n1 seems outlandish) and I think Death is scummier than Pez. Sbell's second argument that we kinda forgot about is that there seems to be more momentum for a Death lynch, so maybe scum is pushing Death > Pez because Pez is scum power and Death is scum Nilla.
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okay yeah backup died d1, death scan was n1, redirector died d2, pez scan was n2. Ignore the "was backup even dead" bit as I am dumb.
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Lea3Lea posted...

Yup, that's his stance

Ben's been kinda frustrated about nobody listening to him I think so it's a narrative that makes sense for him to just fake info to make his lynches happen.

But he's been given numerous chances/warnings to back down and hasn't. I'd buy scum ben over nilla ben over cop ben, but all three possibilities are very much on the table imo

...I'm going to be annoyed with Ben if he's town tho.
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all three possibilities being on the table is why I'm not voting him, btw
I think it's safer to test a nilla on whom I'm neutralish than a cop on whom I lean only slightly scum
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Tom Bombadil posted...

It's not likely to matter a whole lot. SBell is worried that Ben got redirected N1 without knowing about it, and thus Pez makes more sense to lynch since it eliminates that factor. (redirector was dead...wait was backup even dead at that point tho) My counterargument is that that chain of events has a negligible possibility of happening (especially since I don't super buy Ben to begin with, but also because that's not how redirection tends to work here and redirector targeting a claimed nilla n1 seems outlandish) and I think Death is scummier than Pez. Sbell's second argument that we kinda forgot about is that there seems to be more momentum for a Death lynch, so maybe scum is pushing Death > Pez because Pez is scum power and Death is scum Nilla.

Gotcha, thank you for explaining.
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Tom Bombadil posted...

okay yeah backup died d1, death scan was n1, redirector died d2, pez scan was n2. Ignore the "was backup even dead" bit as I am dumb.

Yeah your counter argument is just argument for arguments sake. No matter how much you talk pez will always mathematicaly make more sense
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Let it be noted Ben disappeared when I pushed him on why not push Death yesterday instead of MZero

Probably because there's no actual town cop way to answer it
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Obellisk posted...

No matter how much you talk pez will always mathematicaly make more sense

If Ben is guaranteed cop.
Do you think Ben is guaranteed cop?
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Obellisk posted...

No matter how much you talk pez will always mathematicaly make more sense

I agree with Tom that arrogant town vanilla gambit is high enough probability that choosing which is scummier is probably smarter

Choosing to lynch Ben is smartest though
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Tom Bombadil posted...

Obellisk posted...

No matter how much you talk pez will always mathematicaly make more sense

If Ben is guaranteed cop.
Do you think Ben is guaranteed cop?

Yes. I believe him. I bite my thumb at myself if I'm wrong.
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Too smart to buy the cop claim 100% and care about the hair of a chance of redirection over my reads
Too safe to kill the cop claim

I get to piss both of you off at once :D
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Long before ben claimed I had him as town. So I stick with gut
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Obellisk posted...

Tom Bombadil posted...

Obellisk posted...

No matter how much you talk pez will always mathematicaly make more sense

If Ben is guaranteed cop.
Do you think Ben is guaranteed cop?

Yes. I believe him. I bite my thumb at myself if I'm wrong.

well there's our point of contention! Your argument makes sense if you assume Ben is telling the truth (or you think Pez is scummier). Mine makes sense if you don't.
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I suspect if it came down to Pez vs Ben you would see the light and vote Ben which is enough for me to give you more credit than most town
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Tom Bombadil posted...

Obellisk posted...

Tom Bombadil posted...

Obellisk posted...

No matter how much you talk pez will always mathematicaly make more sense

If Ben is guaranteed cop.
Do you think Ben is guaranteed cop?

Yes. I believe him. I bite my thumb at myself if I'm wrong.

well there's our point of contention! Your argument makes sense if you assume Ben is telling the truth (or you think Pez is scummier). Mine makes sense if you don't.

We agree on something
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Pez who do you vote if you're me, with my perspective and beliefs
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Sheep007 posted...

Y'all just made me lose the game guys

Ben, aside from the guilty scans, who are your scumreads? Did you say SBell was one yesterday and is that still the case?

Mostly it comes down to townreads and POE.

I'm very confident Puns, Lea, Cam, and now Sbell are all town. Confident Corrik is town. Lolo likely town but we'll know for sure if he dies overnight. Scanned Tom town. Ulti I lean town on. Really only leaves Lopen. HB was being ridiculous today but I did see two things day 1 that made me confirm his slot as town TWICE, so I hope that remains true :P

Sbell I just had in my POE up to day 3 because he did nothing that gave me any kind of town read on him. But by the end of day 3 he was being very honest and genuine about how he's been playing the game, which I liked. I also was seeing Pez push towards lynching him a lot on day 3.
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Honestly even if you think Ben is lying town vanilla lynching him is probably smartest. If he's wrong and is just gut shotting suspects we have two mislynches instead of one

You really should only vote Death or Pez if you believe him outright.
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Note the passive way Ben calls me scum there. He eliminates everyone else with minimal justification, then can't even actually say I'm scum

It's so passive mafia scum logic it hurts
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Lopen posted...

Let it be noted Ben disappeared when I pushed him on why not push Death yesterday instead of MZero

Probably because there's no actual town cop way to answer it

Im not answering you because I have no hope for you. It's stupidly simple. How am I gonna push against death with no evidence outside of either claiming im cop or hinting to the scum team that I'm cop? I did try to push Pez since I thought it would make some sense with how I was interrogating him and Tom all day and saying I wanted to lynch one of the roommates. I was not equipped to lynch Death without revealing information.

PLUS I WAS KINDA OKAY WITH JUST LYNVHING MZERO. LIKE IVE BEEN SAYING.
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