Board 8 > Just Beat Doki Doki Literature Club [SPOILERS]

(+) Yeah! (+)

Don't read this if you haven't beaten the game and you intend to, because this is the kind of game that can be ruined by spoilers.

Anyway...

I think the best sentence to describe this game is "Imagine playing Undertale without Determination".

So what happens is that the one character with the ability to manipulate saves (Monika instead of Flowey) takes over and turns everything into hell. But like in Undertale, she doesn't have complete power, so the end result is quite tragic. This game deconstructs some conventions of the dating game genre, such as real people having issues that don't magically disappear after they get together with the protagonist, and how the fact only one character is allowed to be happy must make the others quite miserable.

Anyway, it's a great game that everyone should play. I could see myself voting Monika in a few matches, she's a good character. Though I don't really get the "just Monika" meme, because it kind of goes against the main point of the game (how the only winning move is not to play). So rallying her to win a character contest is a little contradictory. I'll probably still support Link in the end.

Anyway, I'll leave this thread for discussion of the game. You are free to post spoilers here.

played it last night. almost started a topic where the subject was "Monika" and the body of my message was "Just Monika Just Monika Just Monika..." for as long as the character limit would allow.
---

I actually kind of wish there was a non-creepy version of the game where you could date those girls for real. The game made me feel sad for them.

Then again I'd probably never play it myself.

ZeldaTPLink posted...

Anyway, it's a great game that everyone should play. I could see myself voting Monika in a few matches, she's a good character. Though I don't really get the "just Monika" meme, because it kind of goes against the main point of the game (how the only winning move is not to play). So rallying her to win a character contest is a little contradictory. I'll probably still support Link in the end.

Do you not remember the just Monika choice and the fact that unless you know the 'secret' you're basically stuck with her?
---

NowItsAngeTime posted...

ZeldaTPLink posted...

Anyway, it's a great game that everyone should play. I could see myself voting Monika in a few matches, she's a good character. Though I don't really get the "just Monika" meme, because it kind of goes against the main point of the game (how the only winning move is not to play). So rallying her to win a character contest is a little contradictory. I'll probably still support Link in the end.

Do you not remember the just Monika choice and the fact that unless you know the 'secret' you're basically stuck with her?

It's not a secret when she outright tells you how to delete her. I only had to use google to learn how to find the character folder.

Then you beat the game and get to the ending which is Monika realizing it was all a mistake and the only way to win is destroying the game.

So I don't really feel the Monika fanboying. I see her as a tragic character. I mean, I get it that it's a funny meme but I wouldn't rally a character just because of a meme.

Then again I'm probably in the minority.

ZeldaTPLink posted...

So I don't really feel the Monika fanboying. I see her as a tragic character. I mean, I get it that it's a funny meme but I wouldn't rally a character just because of a meme.

Well part of the meme is also BECAUSE she's tragic and that makes her more likable/unique/interesting to people
---

https://twitter.com/lilmonix3
---

So has someone tried getting that Monika twitter to post the contest then?
---

NowItsAngeTime posted...

ZeldaTPLink posted...

So I don't really feel the Monika fanboying. I see her as a tragic character. I mean, I get it that it's a funny meme but I wouldn't rally a character just because of a meme.

Well part of the meme is also BECAUSE she's tragic and that makes her more likable/unique/interesting to people

Eh I just don't "feel" it. I like Monika for being tragic, I could see myself voting for her in most matches, against characters I don't know. But it feels to me like actually rallying her to win it all because "the meme says we should only vote Monika" leaves a bad feeling in my stomach, because the actual game wants you to feel the opposite. I mean, she did kill all those girls, then metaphorically killed herself for her sins.

That's like rallying Chara from Undertale (the kid that appears in the end of the genocide route). It just doesn't work. You don't rally the embodiment of videogame cruelty. It's too meta.

Well that's just me, feel free to interpret how you want.

Then maybe it's just a matter of you not being into waifu culture
---

For the record, I really like Monika as a character, because the way she's written makes her seem very much not like a character. She gets really philosophical if you wait it out in the final room with her before deleting her, and her dialogue just feels like a real person is saying it. That twitter account I linked to further expands on that illusion.
---

NowItsAngeTime posted...

Then maybe it's just a matter of you not being into waifu culture

Well I kind of get lusting after a fictional character, but this game made me feel anything but lust.

So apparently there is a fan mod that gives the game a "Pacifist" ending.

I might play it.

There's a bunch of mods for it. Check out r/ddlcmods, pretty sure that's the main modding community.
---

azuarc posted...

played it last night. almost started a topic where the subject was "Monika" and the body of my message was "Just Monika Just Monika Just Monika..." for as long as the character limit would allow.

Ah yes, I remember these those threads from right after the game started gaining popularity
---

Just Natsuki
---

ZeldaTPLink posted...

So I don't really feel the Monika fanboying. I see her as a tragic character. I mean, I get it that it's a funny meme but I wouldn't rally a character just because of a meme.

The game is a dating sim, but only 3 of the 4 girls are dateable. And this comes right after the introduction where they basically say Monika is every guy's wet dream and that she's way out of your league. By all accounts, you're supposed to be interested in her at first, but then the game doesn't support or develop that option. You share your poetry with Monika, and that's the extend of your ability to interact with her. There are no writing options that will intrigue her. There's no way to have additional actions with her. Both you and Monika are supposed to notice that. You're just not expecting that she's going to rig the system that's initially rigged against her.

OrangeCrush980 posted...

Just Natsuki

Just Yuri, though.
---

Yeah I figured out the Monika thing. My point was just that I don't see her as waifu material. Voting for her because of great characterization is a different thing, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYoOIGBcN48" data-time="

This song is pretty great and it's basically the whole plot in 5 minutes, I recommend it to all DDLC fans.

But yeah I'll be voting Monika too at least in some matches.
---

only played a bit into it and had to stop i'm sad to say

never done that before with a game but i suffer from depression and a lot of what sayori was saying resonated so deeply with me it just got really uncomfortable i knew exactly where it was going and it made me really sad so i just decided to call it quits to see if there was any way to get a happy ending lol and there wasnt oh well

guess thats a sign it handled depression reasonably well for a game at least

i thought a lot of the other dialogue aside from that was pretty meh tho
---

Furious Fura posted...

only played a bit into it and had to stop i'm sad to say

never done that before with a game but i suffer from depression and a lot of what sayori was saying resonated so deeply with me it just got really uncomfortable i knew exactly where it was going and it made me really sad so i just decided to call it quits to see if there was any way to get a happy ending lol and there wasnt oh well

guess thats a sign it handled depression reasonably well for a game at least

i thought a lot of the other dialogue aside from that was pretty meh tho

From a certain point of view, there is a best ending which is the happiest you'll get.
---

Furious Fura posted...

only played a bit into it and had to stop i'm sad to say

never done that before with a game but i suffer from depression and a lot of what sayori was saying resonated so deeply with me it just got really uncomfortable i knew exactly where it was going and it made me really sad so i just decided to call it quits to see if there was any way to get a happy ending lol and there wasnt oh well

guess thats a sign it handled depression reasonably well for a game at least

i thought a lot of the other dialogue aside from that was pretty meh tho

Yeah the stuff that happens before the depression thing is pretty meh. It's a dating sim being played straight, and this game makes fun of dating sims, so yeah.

The stuff that happens afterwards is great, but I can understand your reaction to it. It's not gonna get anything but uglier.

Yeah, the game has that warning at the beginning for a reason. You are pretty much exactly who that warning is there to stop.

Probably a good idea to stop.
---

ZeldaTPLink posted...

Eh I just don't "feel" it. I like Monika for being tragic, I could see myself voting for her in most matches, against characters I don't know. But it feels to me like actually rallying her to win it all because "the meme says we should only vote Monika" leaves a bad feeling in my stomach, because the actual game wants you to feel the opposite. I mean, she did kill all those girls, then metaphorically killed herself for her sins.

I feel like this gets glossed over a lot, but keep in mind that the other girls aren't "real" like Monika is for most of the game. As the player, you get to experience them as normal fictional characters and learn their stories and relate to them. But from Monika's perspective they might as well be cardboard cutouts that she can never have any meaningful interactions with. This is notably different from your Undertale example because that game actually adapts to the "self-aware" elements. In DDLC, the game breaks or goes out of it's way to undermine her and she has to actively alter it to make any difference. I think it really adds an additional level to the tragic angle.

Also why people say Monika did nothing wrong.
---

Shameless plug:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5YGnT9Uio4" data-time="

Full Playlist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5YGnT9Uio4&list=PLEM8tY7SIrzfWXwhxGPpa__l7E3j4eqTY

Game is bonkers. Once I saw the warning, I know I wouldn't be a good fit for it. Not because of any kind of depression, but I'm just so bad with handling anything squeamish or dark. Never liked horror movies for this reason. Also when editing "The Festival" I had to get someone else to do it. Just did not want that memory in my head, I knew I wouldn't be able to sleep for weeks if I did.

The crew that did play it though are pretty hilarious, good play through if you're looking for one!
---

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

ZeldaTPLink posted...

Eh I just don't "feel" it. I like Monika for being tragic, I could see myself voting for her in most matches, against characters I don't know. But it feels to me like actually rallying her to win it all because "the meme says we should only vote Monika" leaves a bad feeling in my stomach, because the actual game wants you to feel the opposite. I mean, she did kill all those girls, then metaphorically killed herself for her sins.

I feel like this gets glossed over a lot, but keep in mind that the other girls aren't "real" like Monika is for most of the game. As the player, you get to experience them as normal fictional characters and learn their stories and relate to them. But from Monika's perspective they might as well be cardboard cutouts that she can never have any meaningful interactions with. This is notably different from your Undertale example because that game actually adapts to the "self-aware" elements. In DDLC, the game breaks or goes out of it's way to undermine her and she has to actively alter it to make any difference. I think it really adds an additional level to the tragic angle.

Also why people say Monika did nothing wrong.

This is a matter of perspective, they are still real if you consider they reacted very organically to certain things Monika did, like confessing or killing themselves. And Monika may also be considered "not-real" since she is also computer code. She is just programmed (or glitched) to be aware of it, but she isn't real either. Both Monika and the other girls react organically to things. Heck, Sayori's turn to evil/craziness when she becomes president shows how she was just as human as Monika, she just had different knowledge.

It's like there are multiple layers of 4th wall. Monika is in an outer layer compared to the others, but there is still a "5th wall" separating her from reality.

Oh, for sure. Theres multiple layers of suspension of disbelief needed. Though the "fifth wall" is just normal suspension of disbelief in the story cause obviously Monika isn't actually a real person, but in the context of the story she is.

Saying that you think all of the characters are human is fair. My personal interpretation was that the title of "Club President" itself is what elevates a character to essentially a humanoid AI. But you do make a good point that Sayori could have agency on the first cycle. I had just been attributing that to Monika's tampering since it causes the game to glitch and crash.
---

I mean, it's possible we are all code in someone else's simulation, and we wouldn't know it because we can't see the outside. Monika can see the outside from her perspective, so she feels like she is real, but who is to say that even in her own universe, she is just as unreal as the rest?

I guess another way to see the 5th wall is not just the fact DDLC is a videogame, but that even in the fictional universe that has a player interacting with the game, the "player" is still more real than Monika, and Monika is still a bunch of computer code, trying to manipulate other computer code. She can look outside and mess with the walls of her universe, but she is still connected to it.

Heck, I've read the reason yhe is in love with the player is that her status as a character in a dating sim forces her to do that. If she had full agency, she might have thought outside the box and wanted more things than just romancing the player.

Didn't stuff in the code imply a sequel in 2018? I remember something about that.
---

Not just Sayori has agency, but all of them. Nayuki rebels against both the game's script and Monika's meddling when she gives you a message warning about Monika. Yet, all of her personality is still determined by coding, and by Monika's meddling. She is reacting organically to the input she receives from those things, and from the player.

ZeldaTPLink posted...

I mean, it's possible we are all code in someone else's simulation, and we wouldn't know it because we can't see the outside. Monika can see the outside from her perspective, so she feels like she is real, but who is to say that even in her own universe, she is just as unreal as the rest?

I guess another way to see the 5th wall is not just the fact DDLC is a videogame, but that even in the fictional universe that has a player interacting with the game, the "player" is still more real than Monika, and Monika is still a bunch of computer code, trying to manipulate other computer code. She can look outside and mess with the walls of her universe, but she is still connected to it.

Well this is just the classic science fiction question asking if AIs count as "real" people or are just following a programmed routine. I'll admit I didn't think of the possibility the other characters were the same as Monika regardless of her tampering, though. I guess I took her word for it.
---

I think the Natsuki letter is the biggest evidence against what Monika says. Then again, this is all subjective.

Natsuki is probably my favorite character in this game, she is by far the most mature and intelligent. She also makes the best poems.

The stereotypical tsundere personality gets a little bland sometimes, though.

Raka_Putra posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYoOIGBcN48" data-time="

This song is pretty great and it's basically the whole plot in 5 minutes, I recommend it to all DDLC fans.

But yeah I'll be voting Monika too at least in some matches.

Thanks for this, I hadn't seen it before.
---