Poll of the Day > north korea summit was a huge waste of time, ok?

(+) Yeah! (+)

the human rights atrocities in north korea are exponentially more important than denuclearization. It was not brought up at all by the president nor did any side of the news media bring it up in the buildup to the summit. enormous lost opportunity and a misappropriation of what the important goal should have been which is the freeing of thousands of prisoners and the end of forced labor, executions, torture, rape and abuse of basic human rights, ok?

One thing at a time. The denuclearization is a step and obviously NK won't be fixed over night. Sheesh I get people obsessively hate on Trump, but he really deserves the credit here.
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Back again, Ziggy?
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TheOrangeMisfit posted...

One thing at a time. The denuclearization is a step and obviously NK won't be fixed over night. Sheesh I get people obsessively hate on Trump, but he really deserves the credit here.

No one is going to listen to that. Even when you have the leader of South Korea say on camera that Trump is to thank for this people are still putting their fingers in their ears and singing "LALALALALA!!!!!!!!"
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All summits are a huge waste of time. Do it online.
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Dikitain posted...

No one is going to listen to that. Even when you have the leader of South Korea say on camera that Trump is to thank for this people are still putting their fingers in their ears and singing "LALALALALA!!!!!!!!"

How? I want to know what Trump did.
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Golden Road posted...

Dikitain posted...

No one is going to listen to that. Even when you have the leader of South Korea say on camera that Trump is to thank for this people are still putting their fingers in their ears and singing "LALALALALA!!!!!!!!"

How? I want to know what Trump did.

Pretty much the same thing Reagan did to convince Gorbachev to tear down the Berlin wall. In fact it is similar down to a tee, even including threatening to pull out of the summit only to decide shortly after to keep it anyways (which was absolutely a bargaining technique).
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No, if it was a waste of time that would have been an improvement on what actually happened.

Trump has shut down the joint military exercises with South Korea (even using North Korea's terminology in calling them "war games"); he's talking about downsizing and removing the US troop presence there (one of the few footholds America has in Eastern Asia to serve as a check on an increasingly imperialistic China); he lavished the world's most violent and destructive dictator with effusive praise that wouldn't have been out of place coming from one of Kim's own toadies; he gave Kim a massive PR victory and equal status with the leader of the free world; China has announced it is lifting sanctions and Trump gives nary a whisper of objection; he's now even going so far as to insist that North Korea "is no longer a nuclear threat".

Now, this isn't in and of itself a dealbreaker. I could understand using any or all of the above as bargaining chips in return for concessions from North Korea.

But what did Trump actually get? Vague promises at best. For all the blather about "CVID" and how Trump swore that's what he would extract from North Korea, he didn't manage any part of that acronym. Nothing complete, no verification, nothing irreversible, and the two sides haven't even agreed on what they mean by "denuclearization". Human rights? Barely mentioned. Access for inspectors? Not discussed. Trump says that North Korea isn't a nuclear threat anymore, yet their arsenal today is exactly the same size as it was yesterday. The deal that Trump signed is far weaker than the previous agreements secured with North Korea (agreements which, it bears repeating, North Korea flagrantly ignored after it had secured aid). Hell, Trump just finished tearing up a far more comprehensive and effective treaty in the Iran deal after criticizing it as "the worst deal ever".

Trump got absolutely fleeced here. Kim played the entire conference masterfully. He appealed to Trump's massive ego and dangled a prize that he knew the president would not be able to resist - the ability to claim something none of his predecessors could - and got him totally invested in "making the deal". Then he took Trump for everything he was worth and Trump was so desperate for a "win" that he got suckered into it. I honestly can't think of many ways this conference could have gone better for North Korea (or China or Russia for that matter); the US is voluntarily ceding its influence in East Asia and North Korea hasn't actually had to do anything to earn it.

Honestly, I thought the smartest thing Trump did with this whole fiasco was when he initially cancelled it. Yes, it gave North Korea a PR victory, but that's small potatoes compared to what Trump gave up here.
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TheOrangeMisfit posted...

One thing at a time. The denuclearization is a step and obviously NK won't be fixed over night. Sheesh I get people obsessively hate on Trump, but he really deserves the credit here.

Credit for what? What did he even do?

Lest we forget, it was North Korea that initially reached out and tried to make this summit happen with their charm offensive at the start of the year. Donald Trump didn't suddenly have a change of heart and offer peace, it was Kim that came to him with a suggestion of a summit.

And it's worth noting that Trump is now the fourth president in a row that's signed some sort of a denuclearization treaty with North Korea and so far none of them have stuck. Aside from the pomp and bombast he attached to this one, there's nothing particularly noteworthy about it (aside from, as previously mentioned, the fact that the US - negotiating from a position of strength - somehow managed to give up far more and receive far less in return than previous negotiating sessions).

Dikitain posted...

Even when you have the leader of South Korea say on camera that Trump is to thank for this people are still putting their fingers in their ears and singing "LALALALALA!!!!!!!!"

Of course Moon said that. Are you familiar with Donald Trump? Appealing to his narcissism is the fastest way to get him to do what you want.

Not to mention Moon's party has local elections coming up (as in, today) and he's riding the wave of optimism to what's expected to be a landslide victory. It's as much in his interest to book this as a "win" as it is Donald Trump's. If he has to kiss ass to do that, then that's what he's going to do.
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Do you know anything about summits?

A vast majority of summits don't accomplish much.

The point is that it gets people talking. That, in itself, is huge.

We're not going to see any real benefits from this for a long time, but talking again is a necessary step.

This darkknight weirdo keeps insisting we gave up something... we didn't lmao

Praise be to Trump! Long may he reign!
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OhhhJa posted...

This darkknight weirdo keeps insisting we gave up something... we didn't lmao

I know.

"We gave up spending billions of dollars on military presence in a country that has never lead an attack on American soil"

This is bad?
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OhhhJa posted...

This darkknight weirdo keeps insisting we gave up something... we didn't lmao

Except, y'know, the whole joint military exercises thing. And the fact that Trump has said he's going to pull troops out of South Korea.

But sure. I guess that's "nothing". Keep telling yourself that.

BlackPortrait posted...

Do you know anything about summits?

A vast majority of summits don't accomplish much.

And I wasn't expecting much to be accomplished here. Again, if "nothing" had been accomplished, I would have been satisfied. As I mentioned at the start of my post, the summit being a waste of time would have been an improvement over it actually was: Donald Trump selling the farm for a bag of magic beans.

BlackPortrait posted...

The point is that it gets people talking. That, in itself, is huge.

It is. I'm not objecting to that.

Honestly, if there's one thing that I think Trump got correct it's that leader-to-leader dialogue with North Korea is a good idea. I will give him credit for that.

The talking part is not what I'm objecting to. It's what the talking led to that's looking like an unfolding disaster.

BlackPortrait posted...

We're not going to see any real benefits from this for a long time, but talking again is a necessary step.

We're not, but North Korea sure as hell will.

China's lifting their sanctions and is almost assuredly not going to be enforcing any of the ones imposed by the US (which they've explicitly credited to the summit and its results). The US is stopping their joint military exercises and, assuming Trump follows through on his pledge, reducing their troop presence. Those, plus the PR boost, are immediate wins for the world's most brutal regime.

Meanwhile, the US gets a handshake and a promise from a regime that has a long, long history of breaking similar promises.

This doesn't sound like the winning deal Donald Trump keeps insisting that he's the master of.
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darkknight109 posted...

Except, y'know, the whole joint military exercises thing.

Who cares?

darkknight109 posted...

And the fact that Trump has said he's going to pull troops out of South Korea.

Good

darkknight109 posted...

But sure. I guess that's "nothing". Keep telling yourself that.

I will

Dikitain posted...

"We gave up spending billions of dollars on military presence in a country that has never lead an attack on American soil"

This is bad?

Yeah this guy is basically what would happen if CNN became a gfaqs poster though

darkknight109 posted...

China's lifting their sanctions and is almost assuredly not going to be enforcing any of the ones imposed by the US.

And this is somehow because of the summit? Lol ok bud

Dikitain posted...

OhhhJa posted...

This darkknight weirdo keeps insisting we gave up something... we didn't lmao

I know.

"We gave up spending billions of dollars on military presence in a country that has never lead an attack on American soil"

This is bad?

Yes, it is.

South Korea pays half the costs of the American military presence stationed there, so it's not like the US is shouldering the full costs. More importantly, Seoul represents a power bulwark that has served to check China and North Korea's militaristic ambitions.

People seem to be forgetting that China is increasingly trying to lay claim to international waters that surround its territory, which are vital shipping lanes for the rest of the world (including America) and which would have significant economic effects if China were allowed to extend its influence into them. Or that North Korea, just a few years ago, torpedoed and sunk a fishing boat in South Korean waters. These sorts of actions absolutely justify a military presence in the region.

Far East Asia is a centre of power for the US, including America's own pacific territories as well as allies in Japan, Australia,New Zealand, and South Korea. I get that America is all about abdicating its international power these days, but surely at least someone on the conservative side of the political spectrum understands the inherent risks in this?
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OhhhJa posted...

Who cares?

Honestly, I'm not sure why I bother trying to explain this stuff to you. You clearly don't have the capacity to understand it, so I give up. I'll stick to talking to people who can manage reading and writing posts longer than a Tweet.
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darkknight109 posted...

Dikitain posted...

OhhhJa posted...

This darkknight weirdo keeps insisting we gave up something... we didn't lmao

I know.

"We gave up spending billions of dollars on military presence in a country that has never lead an attack on American soil"

This is bad?

Yes, it is.

South Korea pays half the costs of the American military presence stationed there, so it's not like the US is shouldering the full costs. More importantly, Seoul represents a power bulwark that has served to check China and North Korea's militaristic ambitions.

People seem to be forgetting that China is increasingly trying to lay claim to international waters that surround its territory, which are vital shipping lanes for the rest of the world (including America) and which would have significant economic effects if China were allowed to extend its influence into them. Or that North Korea, just a few years ago, torpedoed and sunk a fishing boat in South Korean waters. These sorts of actions absolutely justify a military presence in the region.

Far East Asia is a centre of power for the US, including America's own pacific territories as well as allies in Japan, Australia,New Zealand, and South Korea. I get that America is all about abdicating its international power these days, but surely at least someone on the conservative side of the political spectrum understands the inherent risks in this?

Not really, I mean you have people complaining that the US is too militaristic, then you have the same people complaining that we are reducing our military presence in South Korea. Which is it?

Plus, like you said with the nukes thing, it is all just a gentleman's agreement anyways. We want them to stop trying to make nukes, they want us out of South Korea. So that is what we agreed to. If one side doesn't keep their end of the bargain you can bet the other side is not going to either.
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darkknight109 posted...

OhhhJa posted...

Who cares?

Honestly, I'm not sure why I bother trying to explain this stuff to you. You clearly don't have the capacity to understand it, so I give up. I'll stick to talking to people who can manage reading and writing posts longer than a Tweet.

We all know you have to try so hard prove your intellect to everyone because your mommy never made you feel good about yourself but c'mon, dont take it out on me. They love you in their own way.

You also ignored the part about how China lifting sanctions has nothing to do with the summit. Not sure how you're making that connection but it reads like a CNN article. But go ahead and keep spouting rhetoric about how this little summit destroyed our global standing. You just sound ridiculous my dude. Quit foaming at the mouth over trump. The obsession is weird

Dikitain posted...

Not really, I mean you have people complaining that the US is too militaristic, then you have the same people complaining that we are reducing our military presence in South Korea. Which is it?

It's because its trump. If Obama had done the same thing they'd be like, "wow what a master of diplomacy" just like they did with the Iran deal

Reading "like a CNN article" (so like, actually doing some amount of research into a topic?) isn't much of an insult coming from a guy who's just spouting off like Trump "I know things, the best things, believe me"

Dikitain posted...

Not really, I mean you have people complaining that the US is too militaristic, then you have the same people complaining that we are reducing our military presence in South Korea. Which is it?

I don't know - take it up with those specific people. For what it's worth, however, the two complaints are not mutually exclusive. You can think that the US is too militaristic overall while also believing that the US military presence in South Korea specifically is dollars well spent and that the budget should be cut elsewhere (like the perpetual misadventures in the Middle East, for instance).

Dikitain posted...

Plus, like you said with the nukes thing, it is all just a gentleman's agreement anyways. We want them to stop trying to make nukes, they want us out of South Korea. So that is what we agreed to. If one side doesn't keep their end of the bargain you can bet the other side is not going to either.

See, I'd be fine with that, except Trump agreed to concrete steps and North Korea did not. Hell, this "gentleman's agreement" doesn't even have an agreed upon end goal right now. "Denuclearization" is a buzz-word and North Korea has a very different vision of what that means than America does and absolutely no effort went into bridging that gap.

Trump could have made significantly better use of his leverage here. Instead, he was so eager to pocket a deal that he could brag about back home he gave up far more than he got despite the fact that the US is holding all the cards here.
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darkknight109 posted...

he was so eager to pocket a deal that he could brag about back home

And it's no wonder he does this, look at the fucking kool-aid drinkers in this topic

agree 100%, utter waste, ok?
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Trump is right about the military exercises. They are just war games and completely pointless. Not to mention, our small military presence there isn't what is preventing war on the Korean peninsula. The real deterrent is knowing what would happen if NK were to invade

Also, to clarify my stance, if you wanna defend this, then whatever, but actually make an attempt to understand it and not just say "Denuclearization good, troop presence bad, liberals butthurt". You're oversimplifying it and making yourself look like a level of blind Trump follower equivalent to the level you perceive liberals to blindly criticize Trump

Is anyone here going to defend that bizarre movie trailer that the Trump administration showed off?
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Doctor Foxx posted...

Is anyone here going to defend that bizarre movie trailer that the Trump administration showed off?

IDK, I am not obsessed enough with the guy to know what you are talking about.
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Doctor Foxx posted...

Is anyone here going to defend that bizarre movie trailer that the Trump administration showed off?

no, it was terrible, ok?
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Chewster posted...

darkknight109 posted...

he was so eager to pocket a deal that he could brag about back home

And it's no wonder he does this, look at the fucking kool-aid drinkers in this topic

Kool aid drinkers... gimme a break. I dont think is trying to say that trump singlehandedly brought peace to Korea but at least we're actually meeting and talking as opposed to threatening each other with nuclear war every other. That's a good start if you ask me. Better than what obama managed to achieve

Dikitain posted...

IDK, I am not obsessed enough with the guy to know what you are talking about.

Translation: "I'd prefer to remain ignorant of things so I don't have to be faced with harsh realities"

(not saying the movie itself was necessarily a "harsh reality" but this kind of attitude is seen with many other Trump things that people choose to ignore)

Chewster posted...

Dikitain posted...

IDK, I am not obsessed enough with the guy to know what you are talking about.

Translation: "I'd prefer to remain ignorant of things so I don't have to be faced with harsh realities"

I mean I'll gladly rip the child raping umpa-lumpa in the white house a new asshole if I get the chance but I still don't know what this video is so I can't do that. Link it to me so I know.
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Dikitain posted...

Doctor Foxx posted...

Is anyone here going to defend that bizarre movie trailer that the Trump administration showed off?

IDK, I am not obsessed enough with the guy to know what you are talking about.

It was all over the news.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q5Uaq-6CfM" data-time="

American tax dollars paid for that over the top propaganda piece. History is always changing? Ok...
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let's call this what it is, Trump trying to distract from Nixon 2.0, ok?
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Chewster posted...

Also, to clarify my stance, if you wanna defend this, then whatever, but actually make an attempt to understand it and not just say "Denuclearization good, troop presence bad, liberals butthurt". You're oversimplifying it and making yourself look like a level of blind Trump follower equivalent to the level you perceive liberals to blindly criticize Trump

I haven't seen your in depth analysis if you wanna go that route. You're doing just what you always do in these topics which is follow someone else's research and blast anyone who isn't a leftist

What does "follow someone else's research" mean? Isn't that what most people do at some point? Or should I have personally gotten some press credentials and made the trip to Singapore? Would that put me on a sufficient enough level that I can honorably have "LOL liberals are sad and obsessed" told to me?

Chewster posted...

What does "follow someone else's research" mean? Isn't that what most people do at some point? Or should I have personally gotten some press credentials and made the trip to Singapore? Would that put me on a sufficient enough level that I can honorably have "LOL liberals are sad and obsessed" told to me?

Other posters research

Doctor Foxx posted...

Dikitain posted...

Doctor Foxx posted...

Is anyone here going to defend that bizarre movie trailer that the Trump administration showed off?

IDK, I am not obsessed enough with the guy to know what you are talking about.

It was all over the news.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q5Uaq-6CfM" data-time="

American tax dollars paid for that over the top propaganda piece. History is always changing? Ok...

Didn't see it on Reuters, so didn't watch. Now that you linked it, I can.

...and having watched it, yea that is pretty cringy. If I were to defend it, it is in the description of the video itself:

"Reporters in the room initially thought it was North Korean propaganda. But it was created by the Trump regime."

In other words, Trump was playing fluffer to Kim before taking his fly down and sucking him off.
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Chewster posted...

What does "follow someone else's research" mean? Isn't that what most people do at some point? Or should I have personally gotten some press credentials and made the trip to Singapore? Would that put me on a sufficient enough level that I can honorably have "LOL liberals are sad and obsessed" told to me?

But you're liberal scum, so double standards, ok?
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Doctor Foxx posted...

Dikitain posted...

Doctor Foxx posted...

Is anyone here going to defend that bizarre movie trailer that the Trump administration showed off?

IDK, I am not obsessed enough with the guy to know what you are talking about.

It was all over the news.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q5Uaq-6CfM" data-time="

American tax dollars paid for that over the top propaganda piece. History is always changing? Ok...

To be fair, most North Koreans have been fed a steady diet of similar propaganda for as long as the country has existed. Showing them something like that can potentially be defended as speaking their language. It's absurd and I'm more than a little concerned for how effective it's going to be on Trump's supporters, but I can understand using such ridiculous propaganda to speak to North Koreans.
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adjl posted...

Doctor Foxx posted...

Dikitain posted...

Doctor Foxx posted...

Is anyone here going to defend that bizarre movie trailer that the Trump administration showed off?

IDK, I am not obsessed enough with the guy to know what you are talking about.

It was all over the news.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q5Uaq-6CfM" data-time="

American tax dollars paid for that over the top propaganda piece. History is always changing? Ok...

To be fair, most North Koreans have been fed a steady diet of similar propaganda for as long as the country has existed. Showing them something like that can potentially be defended as speaking their language. It's absurd and I'm more than a little concerned for how effective it's going to be on Trump's supporters, but I can understand using such ridiculous propaganda to speak to North Koreans.

They made a few fat jokes at Kim Jong Un's expense in the video. I thought it would do poorly in Korea because of how it portrays the Dear Leader(s)
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Where can I find the specifics for what each side traded?

darkknight109 posted...

OhhhJa posted...

This darkknight weirdo keeps insisting we gave up something... we didn't lmao

Except, y'know, the whole joint military exercises thing. And the fact that Trump has said he's going to pull troops out of South Korea.

But sure. I guess that's "nothing". Keep telling yourself that.

BlackPortrait posted...

Do you know anything about summits?

A vast majority of summits don't accomplish much.

And I wasn't expecting much to be accomplished here. Again, if "nothing" had been accomplished, I would have been satisfied. As I mentioned at the start of my post, the summit being a waste of time would have been an improvement over it actually was: Donald Trump selling the farm for a bag of magic beans.

BlackPortrait posted...

The point is that it gets people talking. That, in itself, is huge.

It is. I'm not objecting to that.

Honestly, if there's one thing that I think Trump got correct it's that leader-to-leader dialogue with North Korea is a good idea. I will give him credit for that.

The talking part is not what I'm objecting to. It's what the talking led to that's looking like an unfolding disaster.

BlackPortrait posted...

We're not going to see any real benefits from this for a long time, but talking again is a necessary step.

We're not, but North Korea sure as hell will.

China's lifting their sanctions and is almost assuredly not going to be enforcing any of the ones imposed by the US (which they've explicitly credited to the summit and its results). The US is stopping their joint military exercises and, assuming Trump follows through on his pledge, reducing their troop presence. Those, plus the PR boost, are immediate wins for the world's most brutal regime.

Meanwhile, the US gets a handshake and a promise from a regime that has a long, long history of breaking similar promises.

This doesn't sound like the winning deal Donald Trump keeps insisting that he's the master of.

All of those you listed are good things.

The US needs to stop being an imperial power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzcaHa80i2Q" data-time="
Calls Kim Jong Un fat and lies about his height and weight to disguise obesity
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