Current Events > People say TLJ was a betrayal of Luke's character

(+) Yeah! (+)

but desperately want back Jedi Master, blackhole creating Force Jesus Luke, even though the entire point of Luke's character was that he was the relatable everyman from humble beginnings still trying to figure shit out and wasn't some broken anime character who could simply storm into the Death Star 2.0 and shoot ki blasts at Darth Vader.
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*Chugs alien titty milk*
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"People" being Mark Hamill...
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That anime character would have been better than brother beige.
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SSJ2GrimReaper posted...

*Chugs alien titty milk*

30 years of character development led up to this moment
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*can convert one of the Emperor's longest, most feared servant of the dark side back to the light*

*tries to kill his nephew in his sleep because he "felt" he was going to the dark side"

Like Deadpool 2 said, that's just lazy writing
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Ivynn posted...

SSJ2GrimReaper posted...

*Chugs alien titty milk*

30 years of character development led up to this moment

That was exactly the point, whether the result was good or bad.

It was also the point of Luke casually tossing aside the lightsaber after the two-year cliffhanger when Rey hands it to him.

Which BTW I still think episode 7 should have ended:

*Rey holds out the lightsaber*
*Luke stares at the lightsaber*
*They stare at each other*
*Camera pans out*
*Sweeping shot*
Rey: I talk first? You talk first?

*credits*
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AvantgardeAClue posted...

*can convert one of the Emperor's longest, most feared servant of the dark side back to the light*

*tries to kill his nephew in his sleep because he "felt" he was going to the dark side"

Like Deadpool 2 said, that's just lazy writing

He didn't try to. He had a momentary lapse in judgment. He had already realized what he was thinking was wrong.

"Try" implies he actually went through with the action.
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

He didn't try to. He had a momentary lapse in judgment. He had already realized what he was thinking was wrong.

"Try" implies he actually went through with the action.

This is like pointing a gun to someone's head and cocking the hammer.. then saying on it was just a lapse in judgement. That is a pretty huge lapse. Kylo was under Luke's charge and Luke even thinking about murdering him while he was sleeping is horrible.

Next Luke didn't try to fix his mistake. Hell even at the last show down. Im place of pleading with him Kylo to come back to good he makes cocky jokes.
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TLJ turned Luke from a lovable character to someone you can easily resent. Awful movie.
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cjsdowg posted...

Kylo was under Luke's charge and Luke even thinking about murdering him while he was sleeping is horrible.

I mean, if you had premonitions that the boy in front of you was going to become Space Hitler you'd probably question whether it'd be worth it for a greater good.

I will give you that it's a questionable story telling decision for him to not do anything to fix it though.
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AvantgardeAClue posted...

*can convert one of the Emperor's longest, most feared servant of the dark side back to the light*

*tries to kill his nephew in his sleep because he "felt" he was going to the dark side"

Like Deadpool 2 said, that's just lazy writing

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Luke turned Vader back to the light after a long struggle and a lot of lives lost. He sensed Kylo's heart had already been turned by Snoke, and he wanted to try to prevent the Vader-esque age of evil. Obi-Wan couldn't turn Anakin from the dark, and look what happened.

Luke had a long monologue about how he sensed the darkness growing and couldn't do anything to stop it. He talked about how he's sick of the endless cycle of the dark rising, and the light rising, and the clash.
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It's possible to dislike both and wish for a middle ground
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but subverted expectations!
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bloodydeath0 posted...

Luke turned Vader back to the light after a long struggle and a lot of lives lost. He sensed Kylo's heart had already been turned by Snoke, and he wanted to try to prevent the Vader-esque age of evil. Obi-Wan couldn't turn Anakin from the dark, and look what happened.

Luke had a long monologue about how he sensed the darkness growing and couldn't do anything to stop it. He talked about how he's sick of the endless cycle of the dark rising, and the light rising, and the clash.

Pretty much.
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People who complain about Luke being mind fucked by a dark user of the force doesn't remember how both Anakin and Luer have shown particular vulnerability to being mind raped in the past.
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bloodydeath0 posted...

Luke turned Vader back to the light after a long struggle and a lot of lives lost. He sensed Kylo's heart had already been turned by Snoke, and he wanted to try to prevent the Vader-esque age of evil. Obi-Wan couldn't turn Anakin from the dark, and look what happened.

Luke had a long monologue about how he sensed the darkness growing and couldn't do anything to stop it. He talked about how he's sick of the endless cycle of the dark rising, and the light rising, and the clash.

I think that first parts shows why Luke would not try/almost/think (what ever you want to call it) the kid. Vader was already space Hitler and Luke went to him TO try to save him. Kylo was not there yet and Luke jumps to Order 66
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Jeff AKA Snoopy posted...

People who complain about Luke being mind fucked by a dark user of the force doesn't remember how both Anakin and Luer have shown particular vulnerability to being mind raped in the past.

I mean, the whole Skywalker bloodline is riddled with poor decision making and judgment.
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TLJ was meant to subvert FA. Rian Johnson both has contempt for both Star Wars fandom and JJ A.
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Jeff AKA Snoopy posted...

People who complain about Luke being mind fucked by a dark user of the force doesn't remember how both Anakin and Luer have shown particular vulnerability to being mind raped in the past.

I mean, the whole Skywalker bloodline is riddled with poor decision making and judgment.

We ain't gotta worry about that anymore since it ends a Kylo's goofy ass
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cjsdowg posted...

bloodydeath0 posted...

Luke turned Vader back to the light after a long struggle and a lot of lives lost. He sensed Kylo's heart had already been turned by Snoke, and he wanted to try to prevent the Vader-esque age of evil. Obi-Wan couldn't turn Anakin from the dark, and look what happened.

Luke had a long monologue about how he sensed the darkness growing and couldn't do anything to stop it. He talked about how he's sick of the endless cycle of the dark rising, and the light rising, and the clash.

I think that first parts shows why Luke would not try/almost/think (what ever you want to call it) the kid. Vader was already space Hitler and Luke went to him TO try to save him. Kylo was not there yet and Luke jumps to Order 66

Someone should Photoshop Ben Solo in the place of the young Ling Anakin kills.
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People would have hated no matter what.
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cjsdowg posted...

I think that first parts shows why Luke would not try/almost/think (what ever you want to call it) the kid. Vader was already space Hitler and Luke went to him TO try to save him. Kylo was not there yet and Luke jumps to Order 66

I think we are just meant to think since he is a Jedi Master, we can trust his judgement when he says he sensed Kylo was already lost. Like I mentioned, Luke said he had sensed the darkness in Kylo growing but couldn't do anything to stop it until it was already too late and Snoke had turned him.

Anakin couldn't be turned when he was going to the dark side, and it created lots of problems. Luke tried to turn Kylo but he failed, and he recognizes that. Failure and learning from failure is like the whole modus operandi of the movie, and Yoda's pep talk. I think it's a nice change that Luke isn't a mary sue and just perfect at converting everyone back to the light.
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im mostly irritated that all of the cool stuff that happened to one of my favorite characters of all time was told via exposition instead of, you know, making a movie out of it. the events that we were told about that happened prior to VII should have been the story to VII. instead of getting a story to conclude the tale that ended 30+ years ago we're spoon fed totally new characters and told we should completely forget the old ones in favor of these.

as movies on their own right, they're OK (but not great) but as sequels to the OT they are utter dog shit. i feel like VII should have done a better job of transitioning the story from old->new instead of jumping right into the new and then telling us how the transition happened.
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Yeah, people didn't appreciate that Luke Skywalker didn't live up to their Superman image of him even though 30 years have passed and that people can change over time.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

all of the cool stuff that happened to one of my favorite characters of all time was told via exposition

What cool stuff would this be?
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cjsdowg posted...

bloodydeath0 posted...

Luke turned Vader back to the light after a long struggle and a lot of lives lost. He sensed Kylo's heart had already been turned by Snoke, and he wanted to try to prevent the Vader-esque age of evil. Obi-Wan couldn't turn Anakin from the dark, and look what happened.

Luke had a long monologue about how he sensed the darkness growing and couldn't do anything to stop it. He talked about how he's sick of the endless cycle of the dark rising, and the light rising, and the clash.

I think that first parts shows why Luke would not try/almost/think (what ever you want to call it) the kid. Vader was already space Hitler and Luke went to him TO try to save him. Kylo was not there yet and Luke jumps to Order 66

Luke had seen what happens if the dark side takes over. It was going to be a mercy thing, if anything.

I liked the idea of Luke contemplating it... it showed him as human and having emotions.
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cjsdowg posted...

bloodydeath0 posted...

Luke turned Vader back to the light after a long struggle and a lot of lives lost. He sensed Kylo's heart had already been turned by Snoke, and he wanted to try to prevent the Vader-esque age of evil. Obi-Wan couldn't turn Anakin from the dark, and look what happened.

Luke had a long monologue about how he sensed the darkness growing and couldn't do anything to stop it. He talked about how he's sick of the endless cycle of the dark rising, and the light rising, and the clash.

I think that first parts shows why Luke would not try/almost/think (what ever you want to call it) the kid. Vader was already space Hitler and Luke went to him TO try to save him. Kylo was not there yet and Luke jumps to Order 66

Yeah but again, that was ages ago back when Luke was still naive and relatively new to this shit.

Now he's under the pressure of trying to restore an entire Galactic Order back to its former glory and upholding the peace that the galaxy fought so hard to win back. And maybe he's just a little bit jaded that after everything he went through to purge the galaxy of the dark side's presence, that it just keeps coming back.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

im mostly irritated that all of the cool stuff that happened to one of my favorite characters of all time was told via exposition instead of, you know, making a movie out of it. the events that we were told about that happened prior to VII should have been the story to VII.

as movies on their own right, they're OK (but not great) but as sequels to the OT they are utter dog shit.

I agree. But I wouldn't be surprised if we really see this fleshed out in 9 though. We haven't even seen the Knights Of Ren yet, which spawned from that night at Luke's academy.

Fingers crossed they don't just exposition that night again and jump to KoR already established.
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CyricZ posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

all of the cool stuff that happened to one of my favorite characters of all time was told via exposition

What cool stuff would this be?

creating a Jedi Academy, training Kylo, etc. everything that happened to Luke between VI and VII would have made for a wonderful Ep VII, instead of it being told via exposition during VIII. it would have been a more fluid "passing of the torch" from old->new.

VII should have been about Luke training Kylo and the rise of the FO
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Now he's under the pressure of trying to restore an entire Galactic Order back to its former glory

MASSIVE pressure indeed. Can't imagine what that does to a person, giving them the hopes of the galaxy and just be like "okay, now don't screw it up".
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

cjsdowg posted...

bloodydeath0 posted...

Luke turned Vader back to the light after a long struggle and a lot of lives lost. He sensed Kylo's heart had already been turned by Snoke, and he wanted to try to prevent the Vader-esque age of evil. Obi-Wan couldn't turn Anakin from the dark, and look what happened.

Luke had a long monologue about how he sensed the darkness growing and couldn't do anything to stop it. He talked about how he's sick of the endless cycle of the dark rising, and the light rising, and the clash.

I think that first parts shows why Luke would not try/almost/think (what ever you want to call it) the kid. Vader was already space Hitler and Luke went to him TO try to save him. Kylo was not there yet and Luke jumps to Order 66

Yeah but again, that was ages ago back when Luke was still naive and relatively new to this shit.

Now he's under the pressure of trying to restore an entire Galactic Order back to its former glory and upholding the peace that the galaxy fought so hard to win back. And maybe he's just a little bit jaded that after everything he went through to purge the galaxy of the dark side's presence, that it just keeps coming back.

Pretty much exactly this. He scoffs at Rey calling him a "legend", and admits to the pressure of being "Luke Skywalker"
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

CyricZ posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

all of the cool stuff that happened to one of my favorite characters of all time was told via exposition

What cool stuff would this be?

creating a Jedi Academy, training Kylo, etc. everything that happened to Luke between VI and VII would have made for a wonderful Ep VII, instead of it being told via exposition during VIII.

They couldn't have done it that way, at least not for an entire movie. More than 30 years have passed since Return of the Jedi came out and the actors are all old now, so the time to show Luke Skywalker in his prime, at least in live-action, has long passed. .
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Since we don't really know anything about Snoke, we don't know that he didn't have the ability to subvert Luke's thinking and influence his choices. If Snoke was as big a mystery as implied in TFA, then neither Luke nor anyone else would be prepared for a mental defense. His lifting of the light saber against his nephew may very well have been a manipulation by Snoke as well. The fact that he didn't carry through with it may in fact be a sign of his strength (in resisting Snoke). And perhaps Snoke, having failed to discredit the Jedi by manipulating Luke, instead chose a different method by going after Ben.

We really don't know and perhaps never will.
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

CyricZ posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

all of the cool stuff that happened to one of my favorite characters of all time was told via exposition

What cool stuff would this be?

creating a Jedi Academy, training Kylo, etc. everything that happened to Luke between VI and VII would have made for a wonderful Ep VII, instead of it being told via exposition during VIII.

They couldn't have done it that way, at least not for an entire movie. More than 30 years have passed since Return of the Jedi came out and the actors are all old now, so the time to show Luke Skywalker in his prime, at least in live-action, has long passed. .

sure they could have. have it take place ~20 years after RotJ and the age of the actors would have been just right. i dont think showing Luke create a Jedi academy and losing his best student to the Dark side would have required much action from Luke.
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Besides, it doesn't make for a very well-told story to start with "everything's cool and nothing has gone wrong yet".

I'm not saying it couldn't be done. I'm just saying it wouldn't be very interesting. It's more interesting to be tossed into a war and be like "how the hell did we get here?"
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cjsdowg posted...

That anime character would have been better than brother beige.

This.

Also "the entire point of Luke's character" is up for debate. You might see it as humble everyman idiot, others see it as "the chosen one".

So you can understand why a lot of fans were disappointed they didn't get Super Saiyan Luke.
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ForestLogic posted...

Also "the entire point of Luke's character" is up for debate. You might see it as humble everyman idiot, others see it as "the chosen one".

So you can understand why a lot of fans were disappointed they didn't get Super Saiyan Luke.

I can understand this. But Super Saiyan Luke was shown in Clone Wars and Rebels (haven't seen either tbh so I'm not 100% on this) so it's not like the imagery is lost.

I don't really see Luke as ever being the chosen one. In the og trilogy, he was always kinda a normal farmer dude who learned the force just well enough to confront his father and turn him back.
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ForestLogic posted...

Also "the entire point of Luke's character" is up for debate. You might see it as humble everyman idiot, others see it as "the chosen one".

Then those others are missing the point.

The thing is....Star Wars is really a space western. And with that in mind, you'd expect Han Solo to be the hero of the story, with Luke Skywalker as his pretty boy, wide-eyed idealist sidekick. But A New Hope plays with the audience's expectations a bit in that it's really a space western mixed in a fantasy story. The wide-eyed idealist Luke Skywalker is really the central character here, and Han Solo is his foil.

And absolutely nothing throughout any of the original Star Wars movies would suggest that Luke is the "chosen one". The idea of a "Chosen One" didn't even come about until The Phantom Menace. Luke Skywalker was just an average, run-of-the-mill Force user who was slowly becoming a more capable warrior, but this whole idea that he's the strongest Force user to have ever lived was an idea that was only supported by the EU, which, btw, turned the Force from a mystical, metaphysical concept to the equivalent of Dragonball Z power levels where for a while it became a game of which Jedi/Dark Jedi could pull off the most ridiculous absurd shit.
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ForestLogic posted...

"the chosen one".

The implications that "the chosen one" is an infallible being incapable of bad judgment calls is at the very core of what the ST is trying to say.
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bloodydeath0 posted...

I don't really see Luke as ever being the chosen one. In the og trilogy, he was always kinda a normal farmer dude who learned the force just well enough to confront his father and turn him back.

And to expand on this, also keep in mind that Luke doesn't beat Vader and the Emperor by using his L337 force abilities he learned over 3 movies to blast them out of the Death Star; he successfully convinces his father to come back to the light side and turn against the Emperor.

You know how odd of a conclusion that must have been in the 80s, where most action/sci-fi movies simply involved the hero just straight up killing the bad guy in a display of ultra-manliness? But Star Wars was always more subtle than that and that isn't consistent with Luke's character.
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bloodydeath0 posted...

Luke turned Vader back to the light after a long struggle and a lot of lives lost. He sensed Kylo's heart had already been turned by Snoke, and he wanted to try to prevent the Vader-esque age of evil. Obi-Wan couldn't turn Anakin from the dark, and look what happened.

Luke had a long monologue about how he sensed the darkness growing and couldn't do anything to stop it. He talked about how he's sick of the endless cycle of the dark rising, and the light rising, and the clash.

Obi-Wan didn't even try to turn Anakin from the dark side because he had no idea his student was being corrupted until it was way too late. By the time he learned it the corruption was already complete and was not something that could be easily and quickly remedied. Not to mention that Vader was twistedly mad as hell at Obi-Wan and was trying to kill him at any opportunity possible. His situation was fundamentally different to Luke's years later.

Also, Luke 'sensed' Kylo's heart was already turned to evil? So he just goes and gets his lightsaber to kill him? Gee, I wonder what happened the last time he 'sensed' something and went against advice/common sense to blindly charge in without thinking further, eh? I dunno, loss of an arm and almost getting everybody killed, maybe? (Sure, R2 was the hero that got them out. No thanks to Luke though.)

Also, that account is directly contradicted by Kylo's own, and don't tell me that the words of some hermit who's been mulling over what he'd done years ago are any more convincing than a guy who's been nursing a rage through those same years over the fact his own uncle tried to kill him for no reason whatsoever. What, is Luke's account more trustworthy and freer from self-justification just because you hear his side of the story later?

Also, 'got Vader to return to the light...after a lot of lives lost'? Pray tell, what further lives were lost because Luke didn't chop Vader's head off when the Emperor willed him to? Or are you saying that Luke somehow had good opportunities to preemptively finish Vader off but didn't take them just because he thought his dad could be redeemed? When did that happen, exactly? Also, are you saying Luke should have just killed Vader when Palpy wanted him to? Gee, I wonder what happened when Anakin did the same thing with Dooku in RotS?

One of the lessons Luke was supposed to have learned in ESB, besides Vader's identity, is that he shouldn't rashly jump into action after drawing conclusions from half-baked feelings. The premise of his interaction with Vader in RotJ was that eventually, anybody could be redeemed with time and effort, if they had originally been good to begin with. Well, a fat lot of good those two movies have been, haven't they?

Luke was the relatable everyman, the TC said? Not even close. He could have originally been. And I agree with the one bit that it's better than EU-God-Wizard Luke. But TLJ didn't keep him as an everyman. Instead, it turned him into a blithering idiot who didn't learn a damn thing from all those experiences in the OT. All that character growth in ESB and RotJ? Undone. Luke is a horrible dolt. I'm surprised how the moron even got those Force powers in RotJ in the first place now that the denouement to his character is in. Idiot savant, maybe?

Just because Luke being a horrible broken god-character in the EU/Legends was a bad idea, doesn't justify the decision to make him into a dimwit instead. Actually, this is several times worse.
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Distant_Rainbow posted...

Also, Luke 'sensed' Kylo's heart was already turned to evil? So he just goes and gets his lightsaber to kill him? Gee, I wonder what happened the last time he 'sensed' something and went against advice/common sense to blindly charge in without thinking further, eh? I dunno, loss of an arm and almost getting everybody killed, maybe? (Sure, R2 was the hero that got them out. No thanks to Luke though.)

So you're trying to equate a momentary slip in judgment that lasted the barest of seconds with a decision to abandon his training that persisted for hours and had two people yelling "stop you idiot" the entire time?

Distant_Rainbow posted...

Also, that account is directly contradicted by Kylo's own, and don't tell me that the words of some hermit who's been mulling over what he'd done years ago are any more convincing than a guy who's been nursing a rage through those same years over the fact his own uncle tried to kill him for no reason whatsoever. What, is Luke's account more trustworthy and freer from self-justification just because you hear his side of the story later?

Damn, someone's got a Kylo boner. I'm sure Kylo's account is true, from a certain point of view (his own). You're the one who took the two scenarios and decided which one you wanted to believe, and that's your choice. I'll trust the word of someone trying to act far more human and not operating on delusions of grandeur.

Furthermore, the film as presented tells you that Luke's account is the "most true". It's how these kinds of narrative devices work. X tells the story one way. Y tells the story another. Then we see "what really happened". The thing about this one is that it's still X describing that third account, so you have a point that Luke could be further lying and changing his story to accommodate that Rey knows Kylo's perspective, but I honestly think for a person to go that way, you'd have to decide that you hate Luke unconditionally and have decided he's not worth your trust. And that sounds a bit biased to me.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

TLJ was meant to subvert FA. Rian Johnson both has contempt for both Star Wars fandom and JJ A.

Yep. If it wasn't blatantly obvious by Luke literally throwing away the lightsaber.
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idk, I liked Luke's characterization in TLJ
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Distant_Rainbow posted...


But what you fail to realize is that this isn't OT Luke. OT Luke was the underdog hero who was expected to fail and ended up succeeding. ST Luke is treated like the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (which is incredibly meta in and of itself) and is placed under insane pressure to preserve the status quo of the galaxy.

Now his action or inaction has ramifications for the entire galaxy. So when he's faced with a teenage Kylo Ren and he's already having premonitions of him turning into Space Hitler 2.0, a version with the potential to be stronger than the OG Space Hitler, excuse him for not knowing the best course of action to take.

And you can also excuse him for not wanting to get involved at all after making the wrong choice and screwing over the entire galaxy.
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CyricZ posted...

So you're trying to equate a momentary slip in judgment that lasted the barest of seconds with a decision to abandon his training that persisted for hours and had two people yelling "stop you idiot" the entire time?

Absolutely. Because if he'd truly learned his lesson, that shouldn't have even happened in the first place.

That the 'momentary slip' even happened in the first place simply proves that Luke is a moron.

CyricZ posted...

Damn, someone's got a Kylo boner. I'm sure Kylo's account is true, from a certain point of view (his own). You're the one who took the two scenarios and decided which one you wanted to believe, and that's your choice. I'll trust the word of someone trying to act far more human and not operating on delusions of grandeur.

'Kylo boner'? That's a new one. Why would I feel that toward some mediocre tantrum-boy?

Anyway, hardly. I'm just pointing out that neither is more trustworthy than the other. There is no reason to believe Kylo that he was truly, 100% blameless and 'dark-free' when the incident happened and it started his descent. There is also no reason to believe Luke that Kylo was already completely corrupted and beyond saving. Both are trying to make themselves look more sympathetic in their accounts to Rey, both stories are likely steeped in self-justification.

Your choice if you're going to trust Luke. Myself, I take both accounts with a heavy grain of salt. Can't blame me for not being willing to trust an angsty kid who throws tantrums trying to be evil and an irresponsible moron who just went, 'lol oops, I ****ed up, well, have fun with the broken pieces guys, I'll just sit here in my corner, suck my thumb and cry to myself while the galaxy we spent a whole trilogy and countless lives to restore to order goes to hell once again.'
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