Current Events > People say TLJ was a betrayal of Luke's character

(+) Yeah! (+)

Distant_Rainbow posted...

Anyway, hardly. I'm just pointing out that neither is more trustworthy than the other.

I thought I remembered the movie portraying two exaggerated versions of the truth coming from either side and then finally the truth which was somewhere in the middle.
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Distant_Rainbow posted...

Absolutely. Because if he'd truly learned his lesson, that shouldn't have even happened in the first place.

That the 'momentary slip' even happened in the first place simply proves that Luke is a moron.

Yeah, no. I don't care how old you are or what you've experienced, human beings aren't infallible.

Unless you're saying you're perfect and you've never for a slight second thought about doing something you knew you weren't supposed to do, even if you went back on that decision a moment later.
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"My father was Space Hitler. I can never let that happen to the galaxy ever again"

"Die Sith scum. The threat must be eliminated NOW"

"Hey uncle, what you doing?"

"Wait, no, I was just joking"

*Jedi Academy is destroyed*

"Shit, I just unleashed Space Hitler 2.0. Time to go into hiding"
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Logan did the whole jaded hero the right way, hell even that version kicked ass and did the right thing even which grumbling about it.

Luke in the ST is a completely different character and the lessons of the OT have been flat out forgotten just like all the character developement for Luke and Han.

They did Luke wrong and EU Luke is much better even if he is overpowered, atleast he is the logical continuation of the ROTJ character and did not make every wrong decision possible.
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COVxy posted...

I thought I remembered the movie portraying two exaggerated versions of the truth coming from either side and then finally the truth which was somewhere in the middle.

Yes. That's how movies work. This fellow has decided to write his own account because "imperfect Luke" is anathema to him.

EDIT: SORRY! Not TC.
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LockeMonster posted...

"My father was Space Hitler. I can never let that happen to the galaxy ever again"

"Die Sith scum. The threat must be eliminated NOW"

"Hey uncle, what you doing?"

"Wait, no, I was just joking"

*Jedi Academy is destroyed*

"Shit, I just unleashed Space Hitler 2.0. Time to go into hiding"

The part that gets missed here is that it was Luke's action in the first place that caused all the bad shit to happen.

So once again, excuse him for thinking the best course of action is to just stay away.
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CyricZ posted...

COVxy posted...

I thought I remembered the movie portraying two exaggerated versions of the truth coming from either side and then finally the truth which was somewhere in the middle.

Yes. That's how movies work. TC has decided to write his own account because "imperfect Luke" is anathema to him.

wait huh
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Now he's under the pressure of trying to restore an entire Galactic Order back to its former glory and upholding the peace that the galaxy fought so hard to win back. And maybe he's just a little bit jaded that after everything he went through to purge the galaxy of the dark side's presence, that it just keeps coming back.

But does it really keep coming back. There was like 1000 years or peace under the Jedi. That is long time to have peace. And one or two flare up of evil isn't that much to ask.
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

wait huh

lol sorry :-P
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Distant_Rainbow posted...

Absolutely. Because if he'd truly learned his lesson, that shouldn't have even happened in the first place.

That the 'momentary slip' even happened in the first place simply proves that Luke is a moron.

Yeah, no. I don't care how old you are or what you've experienced, human beings aren't infallible.

Unless you're saying you're perfect and you've never for a slight second thought about doing something you knew you weren't supposed to do, even if you went back on that decision a moment later.

There's 'being human and makes mistakes' and 'is blatantly stupid'.

Luke's actions fall squarely in the latter, not the former. Especially considering he's come across an exactly similar case in his youth and he just went and made a life-and-death decision based on that.

This is less a 'momentary slip' than someone lifting his three-year-old and giving him a good ol' plane ride over the balcony of a building just because he thought it'd be thrilling and fun for the kid, then accidentally dropping him.
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cjsdowg posted...

But does it really keep coming back. There was like 1000 years or peace under the Jedi. That is long time to have peace. And one or two flare up of evil isn't that much to ask.

That's only because the Sith were hiding in the background waiting for the right moment to strike. They let the Jedi think they were comfortable and secure on their throne, and they became too arrogant and complacent and thus were blindsided.

Then Palpatine eliminated the entire Jedi Order, usurped control over the entire galaxy, and only lost because his big bad bodyguard wasn't as crackling in dark side energy as he previously thought.
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

The part that gets missed here is that it was Luke's action in the first place that caused all the bad shit to happen.

So once again, excuse him for thinking the best course of action is to just stay away.

Precisely. This all happens in one night.

That's extremely irresponsible. "Gee, I almost killed my nephew because he's being manipulated and he saw me, so I guess I done fucked up. Time to hang it up guys. Let the rest of the galaxy deal with a possible Sith/Dark Sider I just unleashed who will likely kill innocents, on their own"
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LockeMonster posted...

This all happens in one night.

Does it?
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Snoke was already manipulating Kylo
Luke's action definitely accelerated it, but Kylo was always going to fall
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@RchHomieQuanChi

Palpatine forgot or never understood how much family is everything to little orphan Ani, dude gave no fucks about anything except his wife and unborn kids in ROTS.

If the man found out his son and daughter were alive the guy is not going to stay loyal especially when your killing his son as seen in ROTJ.
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DevsBro posted...

Ivynn posted...

SSJ2GrimReaper posted...

*Chugs alien titty milk*

30 years of character development led up to this moment

Which BTW I still think episode 7 should have ended:

*Rey holds out the lightsaber*
*Luke stares at the lightsaber*
*They stare at each other*
*Camera pans out*
*Sweeping shot*
Rey: I talk first? You talk first?

*credits*

That's brilliant.
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Distant_Rainbow posted...

This is less a 'momentary slip' than someone lifting his three-year-old and giving him a good ol' plane ride over the balcony of a building just because he thought it'd be thrilling and fun for the kid, then accidentally dropping him.

It really doesn't help your comparison that you're comparing something like deliberately hanging a child over the balcony of a building for no reason to the moral dilemma of killing Hitler when he's a baby before he has the chance to kill thousands of people.
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Distant_Rainbow posted...

This is less a 'momentary slip' than someone lifting his three-year-old and giving him a good ol' plane ride over the balcony of a building just because he thought it'd be thrilling and fun for the kid, then accidentally dropping him.

It really doesn't help your comparison that you're comparing something like deliberately hanging a child over the balcony of a building for no reason to the moral dilemma of killing Hitler when he's a baby before he has the chance to kill thousands of people.

Even though baby Hitler was his nephew and he had previously redeemed daddy Hitler
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DarthAragorn posted...

Even though baby Hitler was his nephew

This is mostly irrelevant. The Baby Hitler in question being your nephew doesn't make the moral dilemma any easier.

and he had previously redeemed daddy Hitler

But the thing that gets forgotten by many people is that Luke already knew Kylo was a potential threat before he even trained him. Luke thought that keeping Kylo Ren under his tutelage would be enough to protect him from the dark side. Then when he sensed Snoke's influence on him and had that premonition, he realized that it wasn't working.

He specifically tells Rey that he saw Ben's power from an early age but decided to train him to protect him from the dark side. That's why he refuses to train Rey initially in the first place.
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I get the idea that people don't like that Luke thought about killing his nephew or fucking off to LEGOland after his failure.

What rolls my eyes is how they assume that these kinds of mistakes are not allowed in Star Wars, or that past success means that future failures become impossible.

This is the quote from the third recollection:

Luke Skywalker:

I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame and with consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose Master had failed him.

That doesn't strike me as a guy getting a murderboner over the idea of killing his own nephew.

Yes, Luke's self-imposed exile after that was selfish, and his reasonings for why the Jedi should end were flawed, but I have yet to be convinced that these kinds of failings are beyond his character. That by defeating his father and the Emperor, he suddenly became incapable of making mistakes or failure.
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Luke saw that Ben was going to become Kylo and he had a human moment of doubt where he considered saving millions of lives. Then it passed, almost immediately.
Luke isn't supposed to be flawless. He had a single moment, that he didn't act on, where he thought, "I could fix this..."

Then it passed, and he was ashamed. He didn't actually do anything. He had an emotion, in a moment of seeing basically a future holocaust.
I don't see the problem there. And it makes Luke's character better for me. Less infallible, less boring.

I guess the big disagreement between fans if igniting the saber counts as willing or not. Someone in here compared it to a gun and cocking the hammer, but I don't see it like that. A lightsaber only has two operations, on/off, and igniting it because he saw a dark future but never going through with it isn't "willing to kill his nephew" in any way for me.
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CyricZ posted...

That doesn't strike me as a guy getting a murderboner over the idea of killing his own nephew.

Yes, Luke's self-imposed exile after that was selfish, and his reasonings for why the Jedi should end were flawed, but I have yet to be convinced that these kinds of failings are beyond his character. That by defeating his father and the Emperor, he suddenly became incapable of making mistakes or failure.

To many people it is not about he mistake of almost killing his nephew. It is that added to that fact that he didn't fix what he messed up. And didn't try to fix it. You can mess up but down me a coward afterwards. Hell he could have even tried to reach Kylo more at the end. But he was all about the cool lines. Then he just fucking dies. RJ made sure that Luke could not be redeemed .
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cjsdowg posted...

It is that added to that fact that he didn't fix what he messed up. And didn't try to fix it. You can mess up but down me a coward afterwards. Hell he could have even tried to reach Kylo more at the end.

in the novelization it sorta delves into this
basically Ben had always had the darkness in him. Luke agreed to train him, but Han wasn't happy about that
after Luke failed, he not only blamed himself for not being able to fix him, he also blamed himself for ruining Leia and Han's relationship. that's when he started getting depressed about the Jedi as an institution and thinking that the galaxy would be better off with no Jedi
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Yeah I think a big takeaway is the fact that Luke didn't cause Kylo to turn. Kylo had already been turned. There wasn't anything Luke could do at this point, even if he didn't ignite his lightsaber over him. He thought "I could save millions of lives right now" (which he would have).

What would the "rational Luke" have done? "I need to keep trying"? He had been trying, and he had failed. He had become frustrated because he is still a flawed person who was overcome with this pressure to save the galaxy and single-handedly restore the Jedi.

prince_leo posted...

cjsdowg posted...

It is that added to that fact that he didn't fix what he messed up. And didn't try to fix it. You can mess up but down me a coward afterwards. Hell he could have even tried to reach Kylo more at the end.

in the novelization it sorta delves into this
basically Ben had always had the darkness in him. Luke agreed to train him, but Han wasn't happy about that
after Luke failed, he not only blamed himself for not being able to fix him, he also blamed himself for ruining Leia and Han's relationship. that's when he started getting depressed about the Jedi as an institution and thinking that the galaxy would be better off with no Jedi

I kinda agree though like Luke trained up Kylo, Kylo was tainted, and then he's just like, welp, better hide away while Kylo wreaks havoc! Not a good look.
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cjsdowg posted...

CyricZ posted...

That doesn't strike me as a guy getting a murderboner over the idea of killing his own nephew.

Yes, Luke's self-imposed exile after that was selfish, and his reasonings for why the Jedi should end were flawed, but I have yet to be convinced that these kinds of failings are beyond his character. That by defeating his father and the Emperor, he suddenly became incapable of making mistakes or failure.

To many people it is not about he mistake of almost killing his nephew. It is that added to that fact that he didn't fix what he messed up. And didn't try to fix it. You can mess up but down me a coward afterwards. Hell he could have even tried to reach Kylo more at the end. But he was all about the cool lines. Then he just fucking dies. RJ made sure that Luke could not be redeemed .

Luke didn't want to get involved because he saw Jedi interference as actively making things worse in the galaxy. It's not unlike a thought Kreia expressed in KOTOR 2 (although on a much tamer level in TLJ).

And it makes sense. He trained Kylo to prevent him from succumbing to the dark side, yet Kylo's heart was tainted by the dark side regardless and he went on to become Space Hitler despite his initial efforts to stop it.

Plus, as Luke said, what would he realistically do in that scenario? When Anakin became Vader, Obi-Wan knew he wouldn't be able to solo The Emperor, Vader and the entire Galactic Empire so what did he do? Fucked off to Tatooine and only bothered getting involved once Luke found him. Hell, Yoda himself fucked off to Dagobah and didn't even want to train Luke out of fear that they'd just create another Darth Vader.
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prince_leo posted...

cjsdowg posted...

It is that added to that fact that he didn't fix what he messed up. And didn't try to fix it. You can mess up but down me a coward afterwards. Hell he could have even tried to reach Kylo more at the end.

in the novelization it sorta delves into this
basically Ben had always had the darkness in him. Luke agreed to train him, but Han wasn't happy about that
after Luke failed, he not only blamed himself for not being able to fix him, he also blamed himself for ruining Leia and Han's relationship. that's when he started getting depressed about the Jedi as an institution and thinking that the galaxy would be better off with no Jedi

Jesus, maybe put all that in the actual movie instead of some filler casino planet garbage.
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@RchHomieQuanChi

Yoda and Obi-Wan did try to stop both Palpatine and Vader, they also had the Slywalker twins as their comeback plan. Neither of those old jedi fucking gave the fuck up like bitch boy Luke did.

Yoda and Obi-Wan had a comeback plan, Luke just ran away like a coward, there is a big fucking difference.
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DarthAragorn posted...

prince_leo posted...

cjsdowg posted...

It is that added to that fact that he didn't fix what he messed up. And didn't try to fix it. You can mess up but down me a coward afterwards. Hell he could have even tried to reach Kylo more at the end.

in the novelization it sorta delves into this
basically Ben had always had the darkness in him. Luke agreed to train him, but Han wasn't happy about that
after Luke failed, he not only blamed himself for not being able to fix him, he also blamed himself for ruining Leia and Han's relationship. that's when he started getting depressed about the Jedi as an institution and thinking that the galaxy would be better off with no Jedi

Jesus, maybe put all that in the actual movie instead of some filler casino planet garbage.

I agree.
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cjsdowg posted...

To me it is not about he mistake

Fixed for you and for every Star Wars fan who thinks they speak for the majority. You can have all the opinions you want, but trying to shore up imaginary support behind you only shows that you doubt the value of your own argument.

cjsdowg posted...

Hell he could have even tried to reach Kylo more at the end. But he was all about the cool lines. Then he just fucking dies. RJ made sure that Luke could not be redeemed .

From what I saw, it was him taking to heart Yoda's statement of the apprentice reaching levels beyond the master. Luke wasn't there to take over and save the day. It was to give Rey and the others time enough to escape. It was to let Rey, who was clearly far more invested in reaching Ben than he was, have the chance to do so again in the future.

No, it's not fully redemptive, but then again, it doesn't have to be. Remember that death is not the end in the Force. Luke can still come back as a Force Ghost.
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Jeff AKA Snoopy posted...

People who complain about Luke being mind fucked by a dark user of the force doesn't remember how both Anakin and Luer have shown particular vulnerability to being mind raped in the past.

I mean, the whole Skywalker bloodline is riddled with poor decision making and judgment.

Relevant

https://imgur.com/HxOZdsg
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I wasn't even able to understand his character and why it was in the movie to be able to say that it betrayed his character. The main problem is that Luke in The Last Jedi is incomprehensible, and only in the movie because J.J. Abrams passed it off with a bunch of dumb mysteries that he never had any intention of solving. In typical J.J. fashion

Why does it seem to be only like the same 3 guys religiously defending TLJ and Luke on this board?

Even Hamill wasn't happy with the direction. There's too many issues. Everything said in this topic is simply a way to halfway justify the stupid in the movie. Not really explain it as logical.
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DarthAragorn posted...

Jesus, maybe put all that in the actual movie instead of some filler casino planet garbage.

oh yeah, no argument from me there
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VectorChaos posted...

Relevant

https://imgur.com/HxOZdsg

Please tell me more of this exists. :O
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Offworlder1 posted...

Yoda and Obi-Wan had a comeback plan.

Except they didn't. Their only plan was to split the children up to keep them safe. Not once did they mention anything about training them as Jedi until Luke was forced into the conflict.

Yoda didn't even do that much. He escaped off to some swamp planet and basically disappeared off the face of the galaxy and didn't even want to train Luke until Obi-Wan talked him into it. Yoda himself even called it an exile at the end of Episode 3.
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DarthAragorn posted...

Jesus, maybe put all that in the actual movie instead of some filler casino planet garbage.

it was. watch the scene with Luke explaining what happened to Rey
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DoctorVader posted...

Everything said in this topic is simply a way to halfway justify the stupid in the movie.

Well that's hardly fair. A good half of it is trying to halfway justify the hatred of the movie.

Also I like talking about Star Wars. Deal with it.

bloodydeath0 posted...

DarthAragorn posted...

Jesus, maybe put all that in the actual movie instead of some filler casino planet garbage.

it was. watch the scene with Luke explaining what happened to Rey

Well, most of that could be inferred, but Luke blaming himself for Han and Leia splitting up is news to me. That could have provided a bit extra motivation that clearly could have been helpful.
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CyricZ posted...

Well, most of that could be inferred, but Luke blaming himself for Han and Leia splitting up is news to me. That could have provided a bit extra motivation that clearly could have been helpful.

True. I never really considered that crucial to the story I guess, while the other bits are. But I could see how that adds some more motivation.
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I hate how attempts to defend the movie are written off as "justifying the movie's flaws".

Like all of this is stuff that's in the movie that people either missed or willfully ignored.
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CyricZ posted...

Well that's hardly fair. A good half of it is trying to halfway justify the hatred of the movie.

That's the thing. You can't seem to accept that people thought it was a shit movie. That's why there's so much damage control going on, but in the end, it's less damage control, and you just trying to push halfway excuses as logical facts.

CyricZ posted...

Also I like talking about Star Wars. Deal with it.

Oh, you're free to do so. I'm wondering why you spend so much damn time with it. Every TLJ topic you're in there posting paragraphs. I get you like it, but you are entirely too defensive over it. Along with 2-3 others. The rest are way more casual about it.
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DoctorVader posted...

That's the thing. You can't seem to accept that people thought it was a shit movie. That's why there's so much damage control going on, but in the end, it's less damage control, and you just trying to push halfway excuses as logical facts.

I mean, people don't have to like the movie, but certain complaints about the movie make me wonder if certain things just totally flew over their head.

Other complaints, like casino planet, Holdo not even attempting to tell Poe about the plan etc., are acceptable.

But when I see people claim that TLJ was a betrayal of Luke's character I have to question if they were even paying attention. As if they missed the whole backstory of him trying to live up to the post-OT image that they had of Luke and him failing to meet those expectations because all he ever was in the first place was just a guy, who's made plenty of mistakes due to the pressure placed upon him, much like his dad before him.
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

AvantgardeAClue posted...

*can convert one of the Emperor's longest, most feared servant of the dark side back to the light*

*tries to kill his nephew in his sleep because he "felt" he was going to the dark side"

Like Deadpool 2 said, that's just lazy writing

He didn't try to. He had a momentary lapse in judgment. He had already realized what he was thinking was wrong.

"Try" implies he actually went through with the action.

lol sorry but this is among the dumbest things I have read on this board in awhile. You can realize killing something is wrong in the middle of an attempt and still have tried to kill someone.

TLJ gets a lot of hate for reasons that perceive to be based on fallacy. That can be frustrating to see, especially if you're a fan of the movie. I get that.
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TLJ turned Luke from the most bland Mary Sue to a complex character struggling with the same demons his father did. The same things Kylo struggles with. You got a glimpse of his inner turmoil. The Skywalker demon

Young Luke was hopeful. He was also impulsive. All those years of his demons torturing him, being held up as the Jedi savior, led to that lapse. Luke was holding that lightsaber. his emotions surged. the blade came out. You think a parent has never stood in their child's doorway picturing strangling their offspring? They just weren't holding a big glowing weapon
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DoctorVader posted...

That's the thing. You can't seem to accept that people thought it was a shit movie

And others can't seem to accept that people thought it was a good movie. Impasse.

DoctorVader posted...

I'm wondering why you spend so much damn time with it.

Wednesdays are very quiet at work for me. Need to fill the time.
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

I mean, people don't have to like the movie, but certain complaints about the movie make me wonder if certain things just totally flew over their head.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

But when I see people claim that TLJ was a betrayal of Luke's character I have to question if they were even paying attention.

This is what I'm talking about.

Were you paying attention yourself? You sound like you're defending just to defend at this point.

There's interpretations of this. It's not clear cut. You're justifying it as x, y, z. Others see it a, b, c. You are however fighting people to ensure x, y, z is the only way to look at it. Hence "I wonder if it flew over their heads". Well, now I'm wondering the same about those blindly defending it.
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Doctor Foxx posted...

You think a parent has never stood in their child's doorway picturing strangling their offspring? They just weren't holding a big glowing weapon

Well, I don't know if I would go there....
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Doctor Foxx posted...

TLJ turned Luke from the most bland Mary Sue to a complex character struggling with the same demons his father did. You got a glimpse of his inner turmoil.

Luke wasn't a Mary Sue at all , He got his but handed to him time after time. The saving grace about Luke was his goodness. His fighting skills didn't win in the end , it was his goodness. And Lando won the war.
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1. Luke abandoning the universe is out of character/ignores his growth.

Luke is a powerful Jedi. That being said, his training was sparse and largely on his own. He had a few lessons with Obi-Wan and a few weeks/months? with Yoda. He then spent YEARS on his own, as two years passed between ESB and ROTJ.

The only two idols he has as a Jedi were both reclusive and abandoned the galaxy. While Obi-Wan did it in a noble way, Yoda left the galaxy to rot. Neither seemed to tell him the full truth of the fall of the Jedi, though he comments on it in Last Jedi. To him, the Jedi abandon ship in the face of abject failure. You honorably leave. The only 2 Jedi he ever knew did it. Leia does not cause she was raised totally different and never received Jedi training. She reacts differently to failure.

2. He momentarily contemplates killing Kylo and that is out of character.

It is not. Remember how Anakin largely turned due to Palpatine messing with his dreams and mind raping him? Remember how Vader manipulated Luke into abandoning his training to come back to Cloud City from halfway across the galaxy? The Skywalkers do not do well with mind manipulation. Snoke is exceptionally powerful with this... and he is not a Sith. His abilities are strange, and he is powerful enough to create a Force Bond between two people from a galaxy apart. Of course Luke can be manipulated. Snoke used his abilities to make Luke feared enough to contemplate killing Kylo, while also manipulating Kylo into showing dark side tendencies. What is out of character about that?

3. Luke should have had a badass fighting finish.

Hell no! Luke realizes that the legacy of Luke Skywalker is far more important to the Resistance than the man Luke Skywalker is. He spends a lot of Last Jedi talking about how he is a failure, the Jedi Order are failure, and what is he supposed to do? Use a light saber to fight off hundreds of walkers? Take down star destroyers? Hell, the First Order desperately wanted to kill Luke. Why? He represented hope.

Instead of fighting and dying as a means to rally the First Order, what did he do? He held off the First Order to allow the Resistance to escape, met with the leader of the First Order and survived without a scratch, disappearing into thin air. That is the kind of story they tell in legends. That is the kind of shit that gives people hope. The kind of stories kids in servitude tell to each other in hopes to have some freedom.

His legacy has power. He became a recluse due to his failure, like the Jedi before him. He felt it honorable to do that. He became resigned to the fact that the Jedi Order is a failure and something else should come in its place.

He learns after meeting up with Rey that his role is to become the hope that the Rebellion was to a young kid on Tatooine staring into space. To be the story those kids tell themselves when they look into the stars... like a young child did to end Episode 8.
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Doctor Foxx posted...

You think a parent has never stood in their child's doorway picturing strangling their offspring? They just weren't holding a big glowing weapon

Well, I don't know if I would go there....

Well, people have dark thoughts. That's all.

cjsdowg posted...

Luke wasn't a Mary Sue at all , He got his but handed to him time after time. The saving grace about Luke was his goodness. His fighting skills didn't win in the end , it was his goodness. And Lando won the war.

Luke was still good. He just realized that the Jedi religion was a farce and he was broken
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