Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 177: Still In Our Mom's Basement

(+) Yeah! (+)

XIII_rocks posted...

I see quite a bit of this, but not here. Twitter mostly. I saw one the other day saying "those who think politics is a matter of opinion are people who are blinded by privilege," or something. So you're wrong, and a monster, to be right-wing. That's not helping the conversation one iota.

Do you see where that person may be coming from though? Not to infer that someones a monster, thats too far, but for a lot of ethnic minorities, conservatives versus liberals in power could be a matter of personal safety.

If youre black, and you have local officials that permit admitted Nazis to march in an armed rally in your neighborhood in an attempt to glorify the enslavement of black people, their continued power matters A LOT more to you than it does a white person.
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red sox 777 posted...

Kenri posted...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/23/opinion/international-world/centrists-democracy.html

This is the kind of thing I think about anytime someone talks about the Democratic party needing to move towards the center lol

That's really interesting. I guess maybe more centrists feel authoritarian government is likely to favor them, since they are in the center?

The Democratic Party mainly needs to be more inclusive of people with different beliefs. Tolerance of an idea, agreement with it, and fighting for it are 3 completely different things, and the Dems should stop conflating them.

Yeah that would be my guess. I feel like centrists are also more likely to value stability over justice in general and that that might contribute.

And the Democratic Party is already 100x more tolerant of shitty ideas than it needs to/should be tbh
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I've seen conservatives regularly call liberals MS-13 supporters, baby killers, and said Hillary Clinton worshiped Satan and did some soul cooking and ran an underground pedophile ring from a pizza place.
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Dancedreamer posted...

I've seen conservatives regularly call liberals MS-13 supporters, baby killers, and said Hillary Clinton worshiped Satan and did some soul cooking and ran an underground pedophile ring from a pizza place.

Do you know anyone who believes that pizza place stuff?
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Vlado
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Possibly Ulti
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red sox 777 posted...

Let's look at Trump's criticisms of people:

Crooked Hillary
Little Marco
Lyin Ted
Failing New York Times
Low Energy Jeb
Etc.

All of them relate to either performance, or dishonesty.

you conveniently left out "crazy bernie" and "dumb as a rock mika."
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Let's look at Trump's criticisms of people:

Crooked Hillary
Little Marco
Lyin Ted
Failing New York Times
Low Energy Jeb
Etc.

All of them relate to either performance, or dishonesty.

you conveniently left out "crazy bernie" and "dumb as a rock mika."

Those are the least moral of the lot.
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What's an example of an accusation from the left that doesn't have to do with performance or dishonesty?
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Accusing people of being crooked and liars seems to be moral judgments, and just because Donald doesn't view dishonesty as a moral failing in your argument doesn't mean his voters don't see them as such.

Granted, they voted for him anyway, yes, and those traits aren't the same as murdering.

red sox 777 posted...

Dancedreamer posted...

I've seen conservatives regularly call liberals MS-13 supporters, baby killers, and said Hillary Clinton worshiped Satan and did some soul cooking and ran an underground pedophile ring from a pizza place.

Do you know anyone who believes that pizza place stuff?

I have a real-life friend I grew up with who adamantly defends this theory on my FB wall. Even if it barely comes up in a larger argument, he feels compelled to walk people through his perspective on that.
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red sox 777 posted...

Those are the least moral of the lot.

i was disagreeing with you "all his attacks are based on performance or dishonesty" claim.

"you're dumb as a rock" isn't "you're performing poorly" or "you're dishonest."
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

"you're dumb as a rock" isn't "you're performing poorly"

not to defend trump but i do think it's implied
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Kenri posted...

What's an example of an accusation from the left that doesn't have to do with performance or dishonesty?

Racism. Bigotry. Sexism. Privilege.
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Privilege isnt really an accusation

Everyone has SOME kind of privilege. Its just important that people recognize their own.
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damn Jakyl I was literally posting the exact same thing

but yeah "accusing" someone of privilege is like "accusing" someone of having blue eyes
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Kenri posted...

not to defend trump but i do think it's implied

i disagree.

"the new york times is failing" is a good example of something performing poorly.

"you're dumb as a rock" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a "performance." you can sit at home, do nothing, and still be extremely dumb.
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I do think its a mistake progressives make though to talk about white privilege without taking the time to really explain the concept of privilege, or at least what we mean by it.

Like, yes, black privileges exist, its just MOSTLY irrelevant compared to white privileges in our society. All other things being equal, a black person is more likely than a white person to be taken seriously as a rap artist or be picked for a sports team.

These are not particularly meaningful privileges, but they exist.
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Privilege isn't an accusation, but it does shut down a conversation. If your argument is "your privilege blinds you," how can the conversation continue? It won't, and you probably won't get that person's vote either.
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Corrik posted...

How do you not see this happening?

How many of you outright insult people who are religious. Looneys that believe in fairy tales I believe is a phrase I have seen uttered at some point.

I actually don't recall this happening in the containment topic. Not from any of the regulars, at least.

I think if you want to spray accusations like this you should at least be able to back it up with a username. tbqh, this kind of thing is a habit for you imo.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Like, yes, black privileges exist, its just MOSTLY irrelevant compared to white privileges in our society.

hey man tons of white americans wish they could say the n-word too
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red sox 777 posted...

how can the conversation continue?

introspection
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xp1337 posted...

Corrik posted...

How do you not see this happening?

How many of you outright insult people who are religious. Looneys that believe in fairy tales I believe is a phrase I have seen uttered at some point.

I actually don't recall this happening in the containment topic. Not from any of the regulars, at least.

I think if you want to spray accusations like this you should at least be able to back it up with a username. tbqh, this kind of thing is a habit for you imo.

this is like Corrik's #1 favourite thing in the world to do all the god damn time and oh man I was typing this before I even got to your last sentence aha
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xp1337 posted...

I think if you want to spray accusations like this you should at least be able to back it up with a username. tbqh, this kind of thing is a habit for you imo.

totally agree. he's accused me of "lying nine times" while only being able to cite one "lie" (that wasn't actually a lie, hence the quotation marks). fuck that shit.

i throw out a lot of accusations too but at least i can probably back them up better than anyone here, given that i have an archive of all of the topics.
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red sox 777 posted...

Dancedreamer posted...

I've seen conservatives regularly call liberals MS-13 supporters, baby killers, and said Hillary Clinton worshiped Satan and did some soul cooking and ran an underground pedophile ring from a pizza place.

Do you know anyone who believes that pizza place stuff?

I know someone in real life who does.
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xp1337 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

how can the conversation continue?

introspection

People usually don't respond to attacks with introspection. If that's your goal, just explain what it is you want them to understand without saying that you think they can't do it. If you tell me there's no way I can understand, I'm probably not going to try to.
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xp1337 posted...

Corrik posted...

How do you not see this happening?

How many of you outright insult people who are religious. Looneys that believe in fairy tales I believe is a phrase I have seen uttered at some point.

I actually don't recall this happening in the containment topic. Not from any of the regulars, at least.

I think if you want to spray accusations like this you should at least be able to back it up with a username. tbqh, this kind of thing is a habit for you imo.

To be fair to Corrik, while I'm not sure that specific phrase has come up, Lasa tends to be rather insulting/belittling in religious discussions by making it a point to try and tell anybody that's religious that they're wrong/illogical.
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red sox 777 posted...

xp1337 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

how can the conversation continue?

introspection

People usually don't respond to attacks with introspection.

Quoting a portion of this post for emphasis.
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red sox 777 posted...

xp1337 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

how can the conversation continue?

introspection

People usually don't respond to attacks with introspection. If that's your goal, just explain what it is you want them to understand without saying that you think they can't do it. If you tell me there's no way I can understand, I'm probably not going to try to.

You're moving the goalposts. You asked how the conversation could continue and then declared it could not. I am contesting that and provided an answer I believe in.

You can try again without trying to work in faulty premises (That "privilege" is an attack) if you like.
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StealThisSheen posted...

To be fair to Corrik, while I'm not sure that specific phrase has come up, Lasa tends to be rather insulting/belittling in religious discussions by making it a point to try and tell anybody that's religious that they're wrong/illogical.

i think there's a gigantic difference between what corrik was saying ("you're a looney who believes in fairy tales") and "you're wrong/illogical." anyone who thinks the latter is insulting and belittling should get thicker skin.
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pyresword posted...

red sox 777 posted...

xp1337 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

how can the conversation continue?

introspection

People usually don't respond to attacks with introspection.

Quoting a portion of this post for emphasis.

There's a discussion to be had on a larger point here (how to effectively convey a message) but that is not what was declared.

A personal annoyance of mine here is that almost everyone here seems okay with letting the discussion slide away from a point made. Seriously, time and time again a declaration is made, it's then challenged, and then the goalposts are moved to more favorable ground and everyone just goes with it, implicitly accepting a bunch of stuff on the way there. It's infuriating.
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StealThisSheen posted...

tell anybody that's religious that they're wrong/illogical.

this is a rather incorrect and oversimplified depiction of my stance on religious people, btw.
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I mean I flat out asked "Why do you find it a must to do this?" last time we went at it and you said "Because I'm right" so

Let's not get into it, though. It's water under the bridge. I'm just saying it's not exactly the most inviting way to engage.
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xp1337 posted...

Corrik posted...

How do you not see this happening?

How many of you outright insult people who are religious. Looneys that believe in fairy tales I believe is a phrase I have seen uttered at some point.

I actually don't recall this happening in the containment topic. Not from any of the regulars, at least.

I think if you want to spray accusations like this you should at least be able to back it up with a username. tbqh, this kind of thing is a habit for you imo.

I didn't say I saw it here. I definitely saw it here or on Reset though.
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xp1337 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

xp1337 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

how can the conversation continue?

introspection

People usually don't respond to attacks with introspection. If that's your goal, just explain what it is you want them to understand without saying that you think they can't do it. If you tell me there's no way I can understand, I'm probably not going to try to.

You're moving the goalposts. You asked how the conversation could continue and then declared it could not. I am contesting that and provided an answer I believe in.

You can try again without trying to work in faulty premises (That "privilege" is an attack) if you like.

My question was rhetorical. I do not agree that your answer is satisfactory, for the reasons I stated.

And sure, privilege is not inherently an attack, but it has been used as an attack so much in the past few years that by now, people get defensive from even hearing the word.
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Corrik posted...

I didn't say I saw it here. I definitely saw it here or on Reset though.

Stop saying "you" if you don't mean us, you absolute dingus.
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Kenri posted...

Corrik posted...

I didn't say I saw it here. I definitely saw it here or on Reset though.

Stop saying "you" if you don't mean us, you absolute dingus.

Um......are you trying to prove his point?
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"I didn't say I saw it here. I definitely saw it here..."

lmfao
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red sox 777 posted...

Privilege isn't an accusation, but it does shut down a conversation. If your argument is "your privilege blinds you," how can the conversation continue? It won't, and you probably won't get that person's vote either.

You're ignoring the massive amount of people who have, indeed, responded with introspection. Possibly because you can't see them as easily as the cases of people who take it as an attack.

red sox 777 posted...

Kenri posted...

What's an example of an accusation from the left that doesn't have to do with performance or dishonesty?

Racism. Bigotry. Sexism. Privilege.

These are all based on performance tho
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Kenri posted...

Corrik posted...

I didn't say I saw it here. I definitely saw it here or on Reset though.

Stop saying "you" if you don't mean us, you absolute dingus.

I don't think you know the definition of "you".
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red sox 777 posted...

Um......are you trying to prove his point?

I couldn't care less about his point lmao
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It is still crazy to me that someone can say conditions being equal, its harder to be black in America than it is to be white and some people adamantly believe thats not true.
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An analogy is "this is why you lost." I thought this phrase was a gem, five words that explained so much about the current state of politics in the US. Five words that if Democrats thought about, honestly, introspectively, would unlock the key to them winning future elections.

But from I could see, me and others posting it here generated zero introspection whatsoever. It simply doesn't make sense to liberals, even if to SephyG and me it encapsulates books worth of knowledge into a single sentence. And it won't make sense to liberals unless they go through introspection, which they won't do merely because of me repeating an insulting-sounding statement at them over and over. So I stopped posting it.
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Corrik posted...

How many of you outright insult people who are religious.

corrik who does this refer to
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red sox 777 posted...

My question was rhetorical.

I am aware. It's precisely why I answered it. You tried to sneak in what I found to be a false premise under the cover of a rhetorical question.

I do not agree that your answer is satisfactory, for the reasons I stated.

Weird, because you never actually stated that. In fact, I took it as you implicitly agreeing it was indeed a solution. What I saw was you saying was that you believed people would not successfully arrive at that answer. That's a wholly different issue and is why I accused you of shifting the goalposts of this argument.

And sure, privilege is not inherently an attack, but it has been used as an attack so much in the past few years that by now, people get defensive from even hearing the word.

Again. This is a separate issue - that of successfully, and effectively, convincing people of a position. Were this the only discussion in play, I'd be happy to have that conversation. But you're conflating this more general argument with the more specific argument that bringing up privilege is something that is unanswerable. And in doing so you're trying to force people to engage you in a setting where that specific premise has been accepted.

I don't feel like playing that game.
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Kenri posted...

Corrik posted...

How many of you outright insult people who are religious.

corrik who does this refer to

Liberals.
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I tend to insult people who are religious. But usually only after they bring up how being gay is an abomination and that gay people aren't normal.
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Corrik posted...

Kenri posted...

Corrik posted...

How many of you outright insult people who are religious.

corrik who does this refer to

Liberals.

Absolute dingus.
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Religion is inherently illogical

Thats why its religion and not science

Its not ALWAYS wrong to believe in something illogical
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Jakyl25 posted...

Its not ALWAYS wrong to believe in something illogical

I mean, isn't this what the parable of Duke Nukem Forever taught us all?
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xp1337 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

My question was rhetorical.

I am aware. It's precisely why I answered it. You tried to sneak in what I found to be a false premise under the cover of a rhetorical question.

I do not agree that your answer is satisfactory, for the reasons I stated.

Weird, because you never actually stated that. In fact, I took it as you implicitly agreeing it was indeed a solution. What I saw was you saying was that you believed people would not successfully arrive at that answer. That's a wholly different issue and is why I accused you of shifting the goalposts of this argument.

And sure, privilege is not inherently an attack, but it has been used as an attack so much in the past few years that by now, people get defensive from even hearing the word.

Again. This is a separate issue - that of successfully, and effectively, convincing people of a position. Were this the only discussion in play, I'd be happy to have that conversation. But you're conflating this more general argument with the more specific argument that bringing up privilege is something that is unanswerable. And in doing so you're trying to force people to engage you in a setting where that specific premise has been accepted.

I don't feel like playing that game.

I'm trying to make the general point, yeah. My language might not have been terribly precise but I really wasn't discussing the subject of whether privilege is unanswerable. If you think my language should have included more qualifiers, that's fine.
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