Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 444: The Figure 444 Topic

(+) Yeah! (+)

also Omega is winning at Dominion. GOODBYE. AND. GOODNIGHT.
---

When did The Miz start being considered better than Rollins?

The Miz is great but he's not the second coming of Jesus. For that point, nor is Rollins, but Rollins could be a world champion or in a world championship feud for a couple years and The Miz does not feel like he could be in a main event feud for that long.

The Miz has his rightful place, and is probably going to be Hall of Fame, but Rollins is a bigger deal and a better wrestler IMO.
---

ExThaNemesis posted...

also Omega is winning at Dominion. GOODBYE. AND. GOODNIGHT.

ExThaNemesis posted...

also Omega is winning at Dominion. GOODBYE. AND. GOODNIGHT.

I
Would literally bet you any amount of
Money you are wrong...

But I so want you to be right.

I like the idea that Okada wins the first fall but then loses the next two, pinning the loss on his own insistence on the 2/3 Falls stip
---

Solioxrz362 posted...

When did The Miz start being considered better than Rollins?

The Miz is great but he's not the second coming of Jesus. For that point, nor is Rollins, but Rollins could be a world champion or in a world championship feud for a couple years and The Miz does not feel like he could be in a main event feud for that long.

The Miz has his rightful place, and is probably going to be Hall of Fame, but Rollins is a bigger deal and a better wrestler IMO.

I don't think he was really saying Miz was a better wrestler

I think he was saying Miz has a higher sum of parts because he plays a character in the ring much better without being that much worse as a wrestler
---

Obviously Rollins is technically better

I am still saying Rollins is a higher sum of parts. Miz's character work is pretty fantastic (better than Seth's) but it's not enough to put him above Rollins IMO. Rollins can still play a character and is probably one of the best in-ring performers out there
---

People who say that Gedo has ruined Naito or Kenny or both are people who are not paying attention, and their opinions can be safely disregarded.
---

Eddv posted...

Well, to be clear, the hottest thing in wrestling is Kenny Omega.

Rollins is on an upswing, but there were reasons for the downswing and they haven't been addressed.

This just reminds me how amusing it is that WWE wants Roman to be the hottest thing in wrestling, and their current plan to manifest this is a stakes-less feud with Jinder Mahal
---

Seth Rollins for my money is the best wrestler in the WWE now. No offense to AJ Styles, but his face run post-WM has been kinda underwhelming. Granted he had to work with Jinder and Corbin, but he also got KO and Nakamura and those aren't great, either.

Rollins pretty much tears the house down on a regular basis and with almost zero effort, and his character from UpUpDownDown is starting to make its way into his promos so he's a good enough face for me. No more sparkle-crotch nonsense.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

I like the idea that Okada wins the first fall but then loses the next two, pinning the loss on his own insistence on the 2/3 Falls stip

I do too....

In overtime.

Meaning it's completely his hubris that did this....

Not happening though.

Okada 1
Omega 1 (OWA, so they'll protect that)
Okada 2 after over an hour.

Solioxrz362 posted...

Obviously Rollins is technically better

I am still saying Rollins is a higher sum of parts. Miz's character work is pretty fantastic (better than Seth's) but it's not enough to put him above Rollins IMO. Rollins can still play a character and is probably one of the best in-ring performers out there

The trick is that they have a LOT of 'best in-ring performers'.

The Miz's skillset is much more rare which makes him much closer to being company MVP than a lot of people realize.

He is one of the only actually Great performers WWE has. Only Cena, Styles, Bryan and ARGUABLY MAYBE Owens are there with him. (Braun has the character thing down but still has a lot of limitations and if the WWE isn't careful he will get super exposed.) Rollins only feels super hot right now because he is coming off a feud with The Miz.

Give it time, Rollins will feud with other 'best in-ring performer' Finn Balor and be right back where he started and The Miz will still be the same.
---

TheRock1525 posted...

Rollins pretty much tears the house down on a regular basis and with almost zero effort

Just a minor point but I disagree with this. I think Rollins increased effort to be great since the Gauntlet comes through in his matches. He DOESNT make it look easy, in a good way.
---

I wasn't arguing in a kayfabe way.
---

USADA is giving out free t-shirts to fighters who pass 25 consecutive drug tests.

LOLOL what a fucking incentive

WWE should totally do this
---

as a lolcasual, can someone explain to me who bryan/vince/meltzer are and what their credibilities are?

cause I keep reading it as daniel bryan and vince mcmahon doing dirtsheets
---

GTM posted...

as a lolcasual, can someone explain to me who bryan/vince/meltzer are and what their credibilities are?

cause I keep reading it as daniel bryan and vince mcmahon doing dirtsheets

Bryan and Vince are former wrestlers, one which wrote the death of WCW. They are also hilarious. Dave has been wrong about everything for about 3 years now but everyone continually believes him because "plans changed".

UInstinctGogeta posted...

GTM posted...

as a lolcasual, can someone explain to me who bryan/vince/meltzer are and what their credibilities are?

cause I keep reading it as daniel bryan and vince mcmahon doing dirtsheets

Bryan and Vince are former wrestlers, one which wrote the death of WCW. They are also hilarious. Dave has been wrong about everything for about 3 years now but everyone continually believes him because "plans changed".

LMAO this makes total sense that you would believe Bruce Prichard.
---

I mean we have ACTUAL CONFIRMATION from several ex-writers that Vince would often come into meetings and change things for the day of a show. Are we really not believing that "plans change?"

I'm not gonna pretend like Meltzer's sources are what they used to be but I think that's less on him and more on the out of touch old man running the company.
---

Bryan Alvarez, Vinny V, and Dave Meltzer are major players in Figure 4 Online/Wrestling Observer. Alvarez is jaded beyond belief, Vinny finds everything hilarious because he mostly only watches PPVs now, and Dave stutters like crazy despite being on the radio about 10-15 years now. I don't know if they started the "wrestling podcast/dirt sheet" craze, but they are the #1 guys who do it. I just wish it didn't cost money to listen to them. I miss the Retro Raw/Nitro reviews the most.

Dave certainly is the group punching bag though.
---

For what its worth, I don't think Bryan or Vinny have credibility, they mostly just leech off of Dave's.

That's why The Fix with Todd Martin and Wade Keller is better. Keller has all the credibility of Meltzer (though less of a penchant for chasing the leaking story) and Todd Martin brings actual insight to his commentary where Bryan and Vinny are mostly whiny MWC knock offs.
---

Keller is annoying though, because whenever he questions people, it's always, "Did x wrester get x reaction he was supposed to? What was it like in the arena?" Like, it's fine, but that's like 90% of his questions. "Does Rusev get the biggest pop in the arena? What was the reaction to Roman?" Like really Wade?
---

Well, I blame decades of covering WWE for that.

When as much of WWEs product fails to elicit the proper reaction, things working the way they are supposed to IS a big story.

I think he very much wants to be able to cover the idea that WWE is about to turn the corner and begin booking well again. It's just unlike Bryan and Vinny, he is trying to let the fact that the booking isn't working speak for itself rather than ranting about it.
---

Eddv posted...

For what its worth, I don't think Bryan or Vinny have credibility, they mostly just leech off of Dave's.

That's why The Fix with Todd Martin and Wade Keller is better. Keller has all the credibility of Meltzer (though less of a penchant for chasing the leaking story) and Todd Martin brings actual insight to his commentary where Bryan and Vinny are mostly whiny MWC knock offs.

2 things....

1: Dave has NO credibility.... and that is far from just Prichard. You can't be wrong for the better part of a half decade and retain credibility. No one thinks Vinny has scoops anyway. He's not remotely a journalist, he is a funny guy on there to be a pundit and play off Bryan.

2: The best compliment I may have received in my life would be you calling those two amazing men MWC knockoffs. Truly, if only.

NBIceman posted...

I mean we have ACTUAL CONFIRMATION from several ex-writers that Vince would often come into meetings and change things for the day of a show. Are we really not believing that "plans change?"

I'm not gonna pretend like Meltzer's sources are what they used to be but I think that's less on him and more on the out of touch old man running the company.

Do I think Vince changes some plans last minute... of course. He's a senile piece of shit after all. Do I believe it happens as often as Dave says. Fuck no.... he just has no clue and is guessing.

Well he asked for actual credentials

Vinny doesnt have any and doesnt pretend to. Hes just Alvarezs buddy and people enjoy listening to them tear apart shows together

Bryan Alvarez used to break news but these days hes settled into his role as podcast host. Can you imagine if it was just Dave solo rattling on about whatever?

Dave Meltzer is the godfather of (what counts for) pro wrestling journalism. Hes written the Observer newsletter for nearly 40 years and built a reputation as both someone who would cover all relevant wrestling worldwide, be a conduit for wrestlers who had info they wanted to leak, and as a match reviewer. He did not invent the star system, but he perfected it.

He is one of the few wrestling journalists I would trust to not BS you, even if his takes are off sometimes. Keller, Johnson, and Satin being the others. Most everyone else, with some rare exceptions, is regurgitating a story one of those guys broke, and twisting it in the process.
---

Strife2 posted...

Bryan Alvarez, Vinny V, and Dave Meltzer are major players in Figure 4 Online/Wrestling Observer. Alvarez is jaded beyond belief, Vinny finds everything hilarious because he mostly only watches PPVs now, and Dave stutters like crazy despite being on the radio about 10-15 years now. I don't know if they started the "wrestling podcast/dirt sheet" craze, but they are the #1 guys who do it. I just wish it didn't cost money to listen to them. I miss the Retro Raw/Nitro reviews the most.

Dave certainly is the group punching bag though.

You can listen to Podcasts on YouTube other people upload, if not they themselves upload.

Jakyl25 posted...

Well he asked for actual credentials

Vinny doesnt have any and doesnt pretend to. Hes just Alvarezs buddy and people enjoy listening to them tear apart shows together

Bryan Alvarez used to break news but these days hes settled into his role as podcast host. Can you imagine if it was just Dave solo rattling on about whatever?

Dave Meltzer is the godfather of (what counts for) pro wrestling journalism. Hes written the Observer newsletter for nearly 40 years and built a reputation as both someone who would cover all relevant wrestling worldwide, be a conduit for wrestlers who had info they wanted to leak, and as a match reviewer. He did not invent the star system, but he perfected it.

He is one of the few wrestling journalists I would trust to not BS you, even if his takes are off sometimes. Keller, Johnson, and Satin being the others. Most everyone else, with some rare exceptions, is regurgitating a story one of those guys broke, and twisting it in the process.

I swear to god.... I may vomit....

For reference his current star rating is

-459.4 to 6.5

Yeah..... fucking perfection right there....

Wrestling Observer is crazy about taking down anyone who tries to upload them.
---

UInstinctGogeta posted...

-459.4 to 6.5

Yeah..... fucking perfection right there....

It's like a person can't make a joke.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

USADA is giving out free t-shirts to fighters who pass 25 consecutive drug tests.

LOLOL what a fucking incentive

WWE should totally do this

You know you have a problem when...
---

Panthera posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

USADA is giving out free t-shirts to fighters who pass 25 consecutive drug tests.

LOLOL what a fucking incentive

WWE should totally do this

You know you have a problem when...

How often are they tested....

Is it like once a month?

You get a t shirt in 2 years?

From Scarlet ranks the wrestlers topic:

Lopen:

Funny thing is back when Triple H used to be that plodding guy who sponged way more TV time than he was worth that was cool to hate on, I didn't really hate on him all that much, because he's never really been offensively awful at any moment. He's just soured on me more and more as time has gone on. WWE's propaganda machine trying to shove it down our throats how great he is probably did a lot of the work on this too.

Also hurts that as time has gone on I can't get into any match he's in. It almost always boils down to one of two scenarios. 1. Triple H takes 90% of the match and wins. His offense is plodding and it's a snooze to watch. 2. Triple H gets beat up 90% of the match and wins. He's poor at eliciting sympathy through his mannerisms, and he generally wins by just hitting the Pedigree out of nowhere, which is annoying as hell because it's not a move that has shock factor and requires and an elaborate setup, and he was being beat up 90% of the match.

This explains so much... about Roman Reigns. He's not John Cena, he's Triple H.
---

that's....true, actually, although he does have some of early Cena's sloppiness going as well
---

Tom Bombadil posted...

that's....true, actually, although he does have some of early Cena's sloppiness going as well

He's a combination of the worst of both

Trips smugness, inability to elicit caring from the crowd as a face, lack of face fire, one stupid contrived move out of nowhere to end it, Cenas sloppiness in ring, lack of moves, move spam, and stupidest fucking taunt in the world, doesn't sell, can't lead a match, has to be carried (a lot of this is Cena 2006-09 or so... no one in 2018 is saying Cena can't lead a match)

also I feel like Cena had started to improve by this point in his career
---

I do feel Roman has improved but he's taken on some bad habits that mask the fact that he has. Spamming the shit out of the Superman Punch is probably more of a net negative than all of his other improvements are a positive.

It is kinda true though he does have a lot more similarities to Triple H than I'd realized.
---

Tom Bombadil posted...

also I feel like Cena had started to improve by this point in his career

Reigns was end of 2012 so 5 and a half years.

That would put Cena at 2008 on main roster...

FUCK NO!!!!

2008 Cena was probably worse in ring then 2005-6.

Cena didn't start to improve till end of 09 (and just barely) and it wasn't until 2010 that he started making actual strides. (No matter how good Punk is, MitB doesn't happen with 2005-8 Cena) By the time we get to 2012 Cena is pretty damn good, and by 2014 one of best on roster.

Eddv posted...

The trick is that they have a LOT of 'best in-ring performers'.

The Miz's skillset is much more rare which makes him much closer to being company MVP than a lot of people realize.

He is one of the only actually Great performers WWE has. Only Cena, Styles, Bryan and ARGUABLY MAYBE Owens are there with him. (Braun has the character thing down but still has a lot of limitations and if the WWE isn't careful he will get super exposed.) Rollins only feels super hot right now because he is coming off a feud with The Miz.

Give it time, Rollins will feud with other 'best in-ring performer' Finn Balor and be right back where he started and The Miz will still be the same.

Another thing that shines about Miz is that he expertly threads that edge of metatext influencing everything, and uses and embraces both history and off-brand reality to fuel stories better than pretty much everyone. He sells match-ups, not only for himself but for others with MizTV segments or on commentary. Everything Miz says is based on or embellishes or warps a kernel of truth where... you don't feel duped or stupid when he says things because his timeline of events matches up with our own. There's no giant suspensions of disbelief (like Roman is suddenly not 'Vince's boy' or Cena won't have a match at WrestleMania or Jinder Mahal). His Smackdown feud with Dolph Ziggler shined a light on the Show-Off and who he was and what he's done and all the stops and starts and it made you care about Dolph more than anything in five years (except Survivor series which was never, ever followed up on for some reason). Everything with Daniel Bryan has been there since day one. His feud last year with John Cena was full of connecting dots and melding so many different aspects and funhouse mirror images of the characters.

John Cena, Daniel Bryan, Kevin Owens, and AJ Styles all have similar strength in keeping their own and their opponents' histories aligned with what we know and what we've seen; CM Punk delivered this in spades before AND after the famous Pipebomb (hi Jeff Hardy); The Usos have been so hot this past year in part because of their ability to translate reality into storytelling. The Mark Henry retirement promo.
---

Lopen posted...

I do feel Roman has improved but he's taken on some bad habits that mask the fact that he has. Spamming the shit out of the Superman Punch is probably more of a net negative than all of his other improvements are a positive.

It is kinda true though he does have a lot more similarities to Triple H than I'd realized.

Also, while he doesn't talk much in his promos like The Game does, they still seem to last the same interminable length of time.
---

Yeah Roman stands around a lot more than he really should I think. And he generally says the same kind of stuff. He still isn't as bad as Triple H there but I mean there's taking in the crowd and there's just "get to the damn point dude"
---

I don't know that I can agree with the idea of Miz not needing giant suspension of belief. If we're supposed to believe that his character actually believes his own hype, that's less plausible than the whole Reigns not being Vince's guy business <_< None of his actions have ever made sense unless you assume he knows he's not actually legit
---

I think Miz is a bit of both.

Like he definitely thinks he's a bigger deal than he's given credit for, but I do think he talks a bigger talk than he even thinks he's capable of at some points and acknowledges that because he tends to run the hell away from a lot of challenges.

I don't think he's a character that really requires suspension of disbelief. His character is not too dissimilar from Ric Flair in theory. Just lower base credibility in all regards.
---

My problem with seeing him in that light is his promos don't really acknowledge it beyond the obvious segments where he's trying to recruit minions. He never really acts like he's delusional or insecure, he seems entirely confident until the match gets going, at which point he's a cowardly loser. I tend to see it as the promos and in-ring booking not adding up because let's be honest, it's WWE and how matches play out almost never matters. Every heel is treated like a serious threat despite never winning legit, anyone who wins a lot is treated as dominant even if they do it by the skin of their teeth, etc. He just ends up feeling like a guy who spends every segment trying to convince me to pretend I haven't seen his matches because they don't fit the story he wants to tell.

The fact that I'm way less fond of the cowardly heel archetype than just about anyone doesn't help, granted. I'm inclined to view him more negatively by default <_<
---

Well it's consistent in promos too if his opponent threatens physical violence. I think the problem is more WWE promos are too often entirely talking when realistically if these guys disliked each other as much as they should they should break down to fighting more often.
---

Panthera posted...

My problem with seeing him in that light is his promos don't really acknowledge it beyond the obvious segments where he's trying to recruit minions. He never really acts like he's delusional or insecure, he seems entirely confident until the match gets going, at which point he's a cowardly loser. I tend to see it as the promos and in-ring booking not adding up because let's be honest, it's WWE and how matches play out almost never matters. Every heel is treated like a serious threat despite never winning legit, anyone who wins a lot is treated as dominant even if they do it by the skin of their teeth, etc. He just ends up feeling like a guy who spends every segment trying to convince me to pretend I haven't seen his matches because they don't fit the story he wants to tell.

The fact that I'm way less fond of the cowardly heel archetype than just about anyone doesn't help, granted. I'm inclined to view him more negatively by default <_<

The reason you hate the cowardly heel is because Vince sucks and drove it into the ground....

But Miz is seriously probably the best cowardly heel this company has had since Honky Tonk. (Who actually has a lot in common with Miz, they both are their best hype men, and believe their own hype).

When done well (and rarely) it can be amazing.

I forgot Jericho and Edge.... and for that I am deeply, DEEPLY sorry.

They were also amazing cowardly heels.

The Miz is my favourite wrestler. Give him all the titles.
---

Miz is easily top three in the company now as an overall package of character, talking, and in-ring ability and he really does deserve another crack at the main event scene in a little while.

I think a program with Bryan to culminate the like past six years would be white hot and pull him up into that realm again.
---

Oh cool, my ranking topic spurred some discussion!
---

http://www.wrestleview.com/wwe-news/104165-the-miz-upset-wwe-title-main-event-ppv-events/

I hope Miz doesn't get a punishment depush for this. He's right though, with the exception of something like maybe a Royal Rumble, the title should always headline. Not a non-title Roman match.
---