Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 172: The Cohen Bothers

(+) Yeah! (+)

aka O Mueller Where Art Thou?
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No Country for Old Men like Trump.
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Whoa, that filled up fast. Tried to post and it was closed already.

Eddv posted...

Kenri posted...

If we get better birth control, the debate will just shift back to birth control. It's not like it's really about altruism towards children or the sanctity of life right now (despite the framing of the debate as around that).

Right but the trick is this - even the Catholic church is relenting on birth control and rank and file Catholics use BC. The debate is well and truly lost there.

Sure, it's lost on stuff like condoms -- but complimentary, woman-controlled, side-effect free BC? Better morning after pills? I don't buy it. That's gonna renew the debate because it'll be compartmentalized as part of the socialism debate and the abortion debate, not the BC debate (which is "won").

I don't expect Catholics to be leading the charge though, I agree with you on that.
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Their entire religion is pretty much based upon conception being creation from God. Why do you think that is?

Because they refuse to understand how it actually happens, and on top of that they refuse to accept that those beliefs have no place in government matters.
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Jakyl25 posted...

the biggest anti-science idiots

Guess the current Republican party falls into this category for you. Their 2016 platform explicitly calls for both abstinence-only sexual education and that "We oppose school-based clinics that provide referral or counseling for abortion and contraception".

Which, sure, you can try to argue about the semantics of "school-based". But you're a goddamn fool if you don't think that's the most important place for it.

Anyways, now that the dumpster fire that was last topic is done

Remember when Cohen got raided and we were all wondering why things skipped directly to that step?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/feds-tapped-trump-lawyer-michael-cohen-s-phones-n871011

Imagine the legal burden of evidence you'd need to get taps on a lawyer's phone, let alone the lawyer of a sitting POTUS
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TheRock1525 posted...

No Country for Old Men like Trump.

Sadly its All Country for Old Men like Trump
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Regaro posted...

Imagine the legal burden of evidence you'd need to get taps on a lawyer's phone, let alone the lawyer of a sitting POTUS

You dont understand. All those judges are CORRUPT, even the ones appointed by Trump!!!
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Jakyl25 posted...

Regaro posted...

Imagine the legal burden of evidence you'd need to get taps on a lawyer's phone, let alone the lawyer of a sitting POTUS

You dont understand. All those judges are CORRUPT, even the ones appointed by Trump!!!

I didn't throw that one out to convince the moron squad.

I'm saying it dead serious to guys like you, who understand it's actually a serious issue. Just imagine the mountains of evidence they had to have before the taps were even put in place
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After that disgusting display with Pence and Arpaio a few days ago, maybe we should be Razing Arizona
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Regaro posted...

I'm saying it dead serious to guys like you, who understand it's actually a serious issue. Just imagine the mountains of evidence they had to have before the taps were even put in place

Oh I know. They basically have to prove to a judge that hes guilty already.
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If you believe there is no merit whatsoever to another person's positions, there's 3 possibilities as far as I can see:

1. You are not understanding their position.
2. They are being really stupid.
3. They are being disingenuous.

I am having trouble imagining a situation where stating a position has no merit without explanation can be persuasive.
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Trump was right all along! Obama wiretapped him!
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red sox 777 posted...

I am having trouble imagining a situation where stating a position has no merit without explanation can be persuasive.

Is there merit to Alex Jones claim that the Sandy Hook shooting was faked by crisis actors?
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red sox 777 posted...

If you believe there is no merit whatsoever to another person's positions, there's 3 possibilities as far as I can see:

1. You are not understanding their position.
2. They are being really stupid.
3. They are being disingenuous.

I am having trouble imagining a situation where stating a position has no merit without explanation can be persuasive.

Theres a 4th option: They are ignorant of the facts.

You dont have to be stupid or disingenuous to honestly believe something that in truth has no basis. You just have to be convinced of it.
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Jakyl25 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

I am having trouble imagining a situation where stating a position has no merit without explanation can be persuasive.

Is there merit to Alex Jones claim that the Sandy Hook shooting was faked by crisis actors?

It's a bad idea to engage trolling (stuff obviously stated to create controversy) as if it was a real debate. If something has no merit don't treat it as if it might.
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Jakyl25 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

If you believe there is no merit whatsoever to another person's positions, there's 3 possibilities as far as I can see:

1. You are not understanding their position.
2. They are being really stupid.
3. They are being disingenuous.

I am having trouble imagining a situation where stating a position has no merit without explanation can be persuasive.

Theres a 4th option: They are ignorant of the facts.

You dont have to be stupid or disingenuous to honestly believe something that in truth has no basis. You just have to be convinced of it.

I would count a valid argument based on an honest mistake of fact as something with merit. If there's a factual dispute you should be able to talk about it right? And if you don't, you shouldn't expect anyone to be convinced.

I mean, I'm well aware by now that persuasion is not the main reason people talk about politics. But if winning is the goal, maybe it should be.
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red sox 777 posted...

I would count a valid argument based on an honest mistake of fact as something with merit. If there's a factual dispute you should be able to talk about it right? And if you don't, you shouldn't expect anyone to be convinced.

If logic and facts dont mean anything to people who are conditioned to believe something else, then no, there really is no talking about it.

You can show a phrenologist the truth about racial biology (that its bullshit) until youre blue in the face, but they HAVE to believe different races are naturally different or else their entire world falls apart.

The marketplace of ideas is a flawed concept
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With regard to abortion, if youre trained from birth to believe:

A.) A persons soul exists at conception
and
B.) The soul is what makes us human
and
C.) Government should reflect this

I dont know how to argue with that if their entire belief system rests on it being true

At BEST you can get some people to understand that point C isnt sound.
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Jakyl25 posted...

The marketplace of ideas is a flawed concept

Qft
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red sox 777 posted...

If something has no merit don't treat it as if it might.

100% what we should be doing with pro-lifers, agreed.
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If there's no point in talking about it, then don't. Saying there's no merit to a position and not explaining just hurts your cause.
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But I cant let someone be wrong on the Internet
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https://twitter.com/ap/status/992109355515473920?s=21

The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences Board of Governors votes to expel Bill Cosby and Roman Polanski from its membership.

I am laughing my ass off that they just threw in Polanski after all these years
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It's overdo but still a welcome move tbh.
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red sox 777 posted...

Saying there's no merit to a position and not explaining just hurts your cause.

what's to explain about "the sky is not purple"? sometimes saying that there's no merit to a position IS the explanation.
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https://twitter.com/justinsink/status/992148283127721984

whoa: NBC is correcting its wiretap story on MSNBC right now, saying it was not a wiretap on Cohen phone. Says it was instead a log of phone calls known as a "pen register," so couldn't listen in

Got poor Rudy all in a huff about nothing
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Am I the only one who doesn't know anything about Roman Polanski other than that he molested a 13 year old girl, and his wife was murdered by Charles Manson?
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Dancedreamer posted...

Am I the only one who doesn't know anything about Roman Polanski other than that he molested a 13 year old girl, and his wife was murdered by Charles Manson?

yes
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Peace___Frog posted...

https://twitter.com/justinsink/status/992148283127721984

whoa: NBC is correcting its wiretap story on MSNBC right now, saying it was not a wiretap on Cohen phone. Says it was instead a log of phone calls known as a "pen register," so couldn't listen in

Got poor Rudy all in a huff about nothing

This is actually strange then, IMO. I was under the impression that they caught 'something' on the taps that prompted the raid (presumably, something that gave them cause to believe Cohen would destroy evidence). But if this is how it was, we're back to 'so why did they skip to raid instead of subpoena etc?'
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To borrow one of corrik's favorite lines, it's obvious that we don't have the full story. It's very unlikely that they jumped straight from pen registry to raid. There's something in between that isn't public yet.
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Well yeah

but in this case, the incomplete story is so goddamn bizarre that I can't help but want to speculate.
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I realize this is just my personal view, but my whole stance with pro-choice is that I have no fucking say in what a person, in this case a woman, wants to do with their body. And, as has been proven time and time again, the majority of pro-lifers don't give a single fuck for the child once it is born. So fuck anyone who wants to tell anyone else how to live and what they can and cannot do with their own body.

Also, if it is not clear, I have a very low opinion of religion in general but I am not going to stop someone from practicing, just keep your views to your fucking self
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SgtSphynx posted...

And, as has been proven time and time again, the majority of pro-lifers don't give a single fuck for the child once it is born.

People should look up the lyrics to "La Femme Fetal" by Digable Planets - it may just be a spoken word song, but it's one of the best and most intelligent attacks on pro-lifers I've ever heard. They make this exact point, too ("'Cause life doesn't stop after birth/And to a child born to the unprepared/It might even just get worse").
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Peace___Frog posted...

To borrow one of corrik's favorite lines, it's obvious that we don't have the full story. It's very unlikely that they jumped straight from pen registry to raid. There's something in between that isn't public yet.

Close enough.
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https://twitter.com/lpdonovan/status/992156444760989697?s=21

This is an amazing campaign ad
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Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/lpdonovan/status/992156444760989697?s=21

This is an amazing campaign ad

Holy shit
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That dude literally just got out of prison for causing the deaths of 29 miners by ignoring safety regulations (plus deceiving inspectors)
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LordoftheMorons posted...

That dude literally just got out of prison for causing the deaths of 29 miners by ignoring safety regulations (plus deceiving inspectors)

Oh. Okay I'm laughing a little less now.
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Thats what the miners want though right? DOWN WITH REGULATIONS!
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A+ defense of that ad: https://twitter.com/sfpathe/status/992202466648383488
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For the sake of the kids, though
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Is West Virginia people racist?
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Id like to think he believes those are all the races
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He didn't call anyone derogative slur, cut him some slack
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Who seriously uses the word negro in 2018?
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Dancedreamer posted...

Who seriously uses the word negro in 2018?

Spanish people.
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I love that in 2018 there is literally an ad alleging that "Swamp Monster Mitch McConnell is a ChinaMan" and that the guy who is saying it is literally the favorite to win the race.
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I love that in 2018 the way to win as a Republican is to attack your own party mercilessly but then vote in lockstep once you get in
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Also you forgot to mention the cocaine
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One interesting point 538 just did a piece on is this:

First of all, I had forgotten that Manchin apparently won his seat with something like 60% of the vote. He may not be in as much danger as people like to say. Just in general, while national trends do inform local races, local races do have their own particular complexions even in this day and age.

This extends to the other major senate races. Montana and North Dakota may in fact be as reliably red as it gets, but it's not as though those are recent developments. While both did to SOME extent benefit from Obama's appeal in the Western states, the fact remains that Tester and Heitkamp won those seats under what are rather similar conditions (an offseason blue wave possibly emulating the 2012 Obama effect) so those races may not be as in the bag for Rs as people might be inclined to think

Of course the flipside is also true regarding Dean Heller's seat. Sure, Nevada is Blue, but Heller had to win that initial election in the first place and it wasn't a particularly weird race or anything so his seat may not be as in the bag for Democrats as people like to say
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