Poll of the Day > Hypothetical scenario for pro-choicers

(+) Yeah! (+)

A time machine is invented for the sole purpose of allowing parents to go back in time and abort specific children that they have. Your parents choose to abort you. Do you consider this to be murder/fair?
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Dude, wtf? Im fully planned, ok?

If something like that existed I'd go back in time and abort myself ok
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I wouldn't exist so I couldn't consider it to be anything.

knivesX2004 posted...

I wouldn't exist so I couldn't consider it to be anything.

Using time travel to mess with stuff is probably a far more serious crime than murder, even if no deaths are involved.
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ImmortalityV posted...

knivesX2004 posted...

I wouldn't exist so I couldn't consider it to be anything.

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funkyfritter posted...

Using time travel to mess with stuff is probably a far more serious crime than murder, even if no deaths are involved.

That.

Can you go back in time and delete this topic, please?
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Checkmate pro choicers

Garlands_Soul posted...

ImmortalityV posted...

knivesX2004 posted...

I wouldn't exist so I couldn't consider it to be anything.

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Aaand no real answers. Just dodging the question, typical.
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JanwayDaahl posted...

Aaand no real answers. Just dodging the question, typical.

Honestly, I just wouldn't exist. So, I wouldn't really care. Since abortion isn't murder, it wouldn't be murder. Of course, no one should ever use a time machine because messing with time is dangerous and can cause things like time loops and paradoxes, but whatever.

Also, it seems people voted for no. Are you assuming that those didn't come from the people that are responding...

There are 12 votes and not many comments. And both of us commented twice, so...

I do see where you were going with this, though. It's a nice game. It's still not murder, though...
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JanwayDaahl posted...

Aaand no real answers. Just dodging the question, typical.

Stupid questions don't usually get real answers.
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ziggi, why don't you close this account too, ok?
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It wouldn't be murder, it would be something new. Mainly because of the number of paradoxes it might cause.

On a technical level, changing anything via time travel does destroy several universes...
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I wouldn't consider it to be anything, because I wouldn't exist.

But really, that sounds like a pretty stupid time machine to me.
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Charlie survived an abortion

JanwayDaahl posted...

Aaand no real answers. Just dodging the question, typical.

Not real scenarios don't need real answers.
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if someone was never born then they would never grow up.
if they never grew up then nobody would know about them.
if nobody knew about them then how would someone know to go back in time for them?
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Garlands_Soul posted...

ImmortalityV posted...

knivesX2004 posted...

I wouldn't exist so I couldn't consider it to be anything.

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Obviously I'd be too busy having sex with myself.

Well that would cause a paradox that would result in a certain amount of years repeating endlessly, effectively ending the universe until quantum fluctuations resulted in a universe where everything within 4.3 billion ligh years of earth was negated entirely. So, no.
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waterdeepchu posted...

Well that would cause a paradox that would result in a certain amount of years repeating endlessly, effectively ending the universe until quantum fluctuations resulted in a universe where everything within 4.3 billion ligh years of earth was negated entirely. So, no.

I don't think he's asking if you want to do it. He's asking if it would be murder the fetus. Just to let you know. Though i agree with the answe no...

HANGtheDJ_86 posted...

Obviously I'd be too busy having sex with myself.

I don't think I could do that. Both of me would want to be the top...
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knivesX2004 posted...

I wouldn't exist so I couldn't consider it to be anything.

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This hypothetical scenario is impossible because it invokes the grandfather paradox. In order for my parents to choose to go back in time and abort me, I would have to have been born in the present.

Given the Novikov self-consistency principle, which states that anything that a time traveler does in the past must have already happened, my parents could not actually succeed in aborting me in the past, so the moral question for my present self is irrelevant.

Given the many-worlds interpretation, my parents going back in time to abort me would simply put them in the alternate history where I wasn't born. If they returned to their point of origin, nothing would physically change for them or me, so the moral question for my present self is irrelevant. If their journey back to the present takes them to the present of the alternate history where I wasn't born, then the moral question for my present self is not "Is it fair/murder for your parents go back in time to abort you?"; it's "Is it fair/moral for your parents to effectively orphan you by choosing to put themselves in an alternate timeline?", which has nothing to do with the question of abortion, and is thus also irrelevant to the argument you're trying to make.

Regardless, abortion isn't murder.
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dainkinkaide posted...

Regardless, abortion isn't murder.

that's an interesting line. Suppose a woman decides to abort her pregnancy eight months in. Technically the procedure is indeed still called an abortion, however are there not other considerations involved to call it something else?

Why do you do these topics Zeus, sad, ok?
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nesrtkfan posted...

Suppose a woman decides to abort her pregnancy eight months in

No ethical medical practitioner would perform the procedure at eight months.
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dainkinkaide posted...

Regardless, abortion isn't murder.

Sometimes it is, depending on the circumstances.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Gosnell

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/abortion-doctors-charged-with-murder-in-md/

https://whdh.com/news/doctor-charged-with-premeditated-murder-for-spiking-pregnant-girlfriends-drink-with-abortion-pill/

Nope, it'd probably be a pretty serious time travel crime though. Not that I'd care, though, because I'd have never existed. Now your turn, if your parents went back and time and decided not to conceive you, is that murder?

Selenara posted...

dainkinkaide posted...

Regardless, abortion isn't murder.

Sometimes it is, depending on the circumstances.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Gosnell

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/abortion-doctors-charged-with-murder-in-md/

https://whdh.com/news/doctor-charged-with-premeditated-murder-for-spiking-pregnant-girlfriends-drink-with-abortion-pill/

What?! You mean its a crime when performed outside the legally permitted actions?! Holy shit!
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I don't think he's asking if you want to do it. He's asking if it would be murder the fetus. Just to let you know. Though i agree with the answe no...

Not sure why it was so hard for anyone else to realize this. It's not about the time paradox aspect, it's whether or not you (currently) would approve of what amounts to your own murder. The liberals here are just trying to skirt around the issue. Go figure.
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JanwayDaahl posted...

I don't think he's asking if you want to do it. He's asking if it would be murder the fetus. Just to let you know. Though i agree with the answe no...

Not sure why it was so hard for anyone else to realize this. It's not about the time paradox aspect, it's whether or not you (currently) would approve of what amounts to your own murder. The liberals here are just trying to skirt around the issue. Go figure.

I think people are thinking about it too much. But I think they would agree it's not murder. And it's not.
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No, because they're undoing a mistake lol
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Asks about time travel in the context of politics

Expects serious answers
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Bro, you gotta understand that similar to the way we used to justify the deplorable treatment of blacks by not classifying them as human, people will justify abortion by deciding to classify an unborn child in the same way.

Blightzkrieg posted...

Hard to invent something if you were never born. And hard to invent a new type of popcorn at age 9, too.
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Noop_Noop posted...

Bro, you gotta understand that similar to the way we used to justify the deplorable treatment of blacks by not classifying them as human, people will justify abortion by deciding to classify an unborn child in the same way.

Except they already have a classification as a fetus...
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LinkPizza posted...

Noop_Noop posted...

Bro, you gotta understand that similar to the way we used to justify the deplorable treatment of blacks by not classifying them as human, people will justify abortion by deciding to classify an unborn child in the same way.

Except they already have a classification as a fetus...

Right, and so long as we all agree not to call them people, anything goes. Pretty much exactly how we justified slavery.

Not sure what point you were trying to make there.

If somebody made a time machine and didn't use it to save Archduke Franz Ferdinand, I'd hope it was so they could abort themselves. That's basically the best thing somebody could do for humanity, given how many bad things today are a result of his assassination leading to war and his reforms not being implemented. That's directly and indirectly involved for the rise of Nazism, communism finding as much success as it did, and Islamic extremism being such a thing.

I'm not going to provide any history lessons, so if you plan on arguing with me, do your own research first.
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TheCyborgNinja posted...

If somebody made a time machine and didn't use it to save Archduke Franz Ferdinand, I'd hope it was so they could abort themselves. That's basically the best thing somebody could do for humanity, given how many bad things today are a result of his assassination leading to war and his reforms not being implemented. That's directly and indirectly involved for the rise of Nazism, communism finding as much success as it did, and Islamic extremism being such a thing.

I'm not going to provide any history lessons, so if you plan on arguing with me, do your own research first.

So you'd abort his assassination?
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Noop_Noop posted...

LinkPizza posted...

Noop_Noop posted...

Bro, you gotta understand that similar to the way we used to justify the deplorable treatment of blacks by not classifying them as human, people will justify abortion by deciding to classify an unborn child in the same way.

Except they already have a classification as a fetus...

Right, and so long as we all agree not to call them people, anything goes. Pretty much exactly how we justified slavery.

Not sure what point you were trying to make there.

They're arenmt humans yet. That's all. They will be humans if we continue to let them grow. But if we stop it, they aren't human.

TheCyborgNinja posted...

If somebody made a time machine and didn't use it to save Archduke Franz Ferdinand, I'd hope it was so they could abort themselves. That's basically the best thing somebody could do for humanity, given how many bad things today are a result of his assassination leading to war and his reforms not being implemented. That's directly and indirectly involved for the rise of Nazism, communism finding as much success as it did, and Islamic extremism being such a thing.

I'm not going to provide any history lessons, so if you plan on arguing with me, do your own research first.

You would have to save him, but fake his death. Or else, you may change too much and start a paradox...
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This thread doesn't address any potential paradox or alternate time lines.

I can't rationalize time travel where you can just go back and change your current timeline.

BlackScythe0 posted...

This thread doesn't address any potential paradox or alternate time lines.

I can't rationalize time travel where you can just go back and change your current timeline.

We addressed it a couple of times. The poll was made because a pro-lifer wants us to say our parents going back in time to abort us is murder simply cause it's us. Or because we were already born. Or something like that... I believe...
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LinkPizza posted...

BlackScythe0 posted...

This thread doesn't address any potential paradox or alternate time lines.

I can't rationalize time travel where you can just go back and change your current timeline.

We addressed it a couple of times. The poll was made because a pro-lifer wants us to say our parents going back in time to abort us is murder simply cause it's us. Or because we were already born. Or something like that... I believe...

I don't want to humor Janway

Murder? That's subjective.
Fair? Entirely different question and that won't be my call because I didn't end up existing.
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yes I would consider that a form of murder, unless time travel actually just moves you to a parallel universe or something.
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Noop_Noop posted...

LinkPizza posted...

Noop_Noop posted...

Bro, you gotta understand that similar to the way we used to justify the deplorable treatment of blacks by not classifying them as human, people will justify abortion by deciding to classify an unborn child in the same way.

Except they already have a classification as a fetus...

Right, and so long as we all agree not to call them people, anything goes. Pretty much exactly how we justified slavery.

Not sure what point you were trying to make there.

I mean, I've never heard a fetus complain about it, so...
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