Board 8 > Freedom, Liberty, Ron Paul - Rage on Behalf of the Machine [dwmf]

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'm pretty sure "Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society" is the position of the Republican Party, too. So that'd have to be mainstream propaganda.
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SmartMuffin posted...

Those aren't philosophy. All of those things are provably false.

You believe there can exist a capitalist society where no one is poor?
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Jakyl25 posted...

SmartMuffin posted...

Those aren't philosophy. All of those things are provably false.

You believe there can exist a capitalist society where no one is poor?

No, but I believe poverty was the default state of nature everywhere prior to capitalism. Suggesting that capitalism leads to poverty is suggesting that poverty did not exist prior to capitalism. Which is laughably and obviously stupid.
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How can you have poverty as a default state. That makes no sense to me. Poverty only exists as a state relative to others who are better off.

Do you mean poverty-like conditions?
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https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/

Which of these are propaganda?
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SmartMuffin posted...

Those aren't philosophy. All of those things are provably false.

No they aren't.
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SmartMuffin posted...

"There are 57 genders."

Is this self aware btw?

If not then how can you argue about "obvious jokes that no one takes seriously"
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SmartMuffin posted...

"Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society."

we don't know what society without taxes would be like. don't see how this is "provably false."

"Nobody needs semiautomatic guns."

how is this false?
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SmartMuffin posted...

Whats something from the left that you want fact-checked that Snopes ignores?

"Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society."

"Capitalism causes poverty."

"There are 57 genders."

"All races are equal in every way."

"Nobody needs semiautomatic guns."

1. Civilization is built around humanity working as a collective, rather than a bunch of individuals trying to grab as much as they can for themselves. It might not be as true today as it once was, but civilization wouldn't exist without collectivism. Taxes promote everyone contributing to society, so yes, true.

2. When the rich are able to use that wealth to further expand the divide between themselves and the lower class, then yes, true.

3. Maybe not that many, but certainly more than two.

4. Aside from historical disadvantages faced by certain races compared to others, true.

5. True.
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Inviso posted...

2. When the rich are able to use that wealth to further expand the divide between themselves and the lower class, then yes, true.

eh, i wouldn't agree with this. i mean, this is like saying "money causes poverty." capitalism is more like a neutral framework that enables people to create as much or little poverty as they want.

poverty is caused by rich assholes who have no empathy, not capitalism.
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SmartMuffin posted...

Whats something from the left that you want fact-checked that Snopes ignores?

"Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society."

"Capitalism causes poverty."

"There are 57 genders."

"All races are equal in every way."

"Nobody needs semiautomatic guns."

Yeah you're definitely not the audience for Snopes LMFAO
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https://nypost.com/2018/04/01/kim-jong-un-watches-k-pop-stars-perform-in-north-korea/

Kim's got a crush on the pop stars after the Olympics
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https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/980428153259790337

The left finds this inexplicable - because after all, racism is just stupid prejudice based on nothing, right?

Nevermind that violent crime rates for black males are ridiculously high but for black females they aren't. It's almost as if this "racist stereotyping" is based on an actual observable thing and not just irrational xenophobia.
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Violent crimes for men in general are much higher than women for any race, right?

But yet people arent afraid of white men
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I am

Any sane person is
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Actually I guess what I want to say in response here is, what is your point? Are you looking for validation to be racist?
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Jakyl25 posted...

Are you looking for validation to be racist?

No, he is well beyond that. That's what red pill is all about.

He probably cares more about supporting his stats based smokescreen worldview.
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yeah, i don't get the point here either.

"people don't base their racism on nothing, they actually base it on something!" ok, great? racism is still fucking terrible and wrong.
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If a woman doesn't want to walk home alone at night and constantly crosses the street when she sees a man is she sexist?
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HotDogButts posted...

If a woman doesn't want to walk home alone at night and constantly crosses the street when she sees a man is she sexist?

no.

she's sexist if she says "all men are rapists," though.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

yeah, i don't get the point here either.

"people don't base their racism on nothing, they actually base it on something!" ok, great? racism is still fucking terrible and wrong.

It's obv wrong but there is a difference between saying "your racism is fucked up although I understand your normal psychological irrational/racist application of it, but you need to look beyond that" and just shouting racist. The latter makes racists just tune out and dig their heels in, because they KNOW there is a "reason/justification" for their racism. But if you're willing to have an honest conversation and say "yes black men commit violent crimes at a higher rate BUT it is still fucked up to view black men as inherently violent" you can actual go somewhere.

Otherwise you're just shouting "you're wrong" at someone who thinks they have facts on their side.
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HotDogButts posted...

If a woman doesn't want to walk home alone at night and constantly crosses the street when she sees a man is she sexist?

I know a lot of toxic online communities that would say yes!

You should have seen all the shit Felicia Day got from gamers when she wrote a post about instinctually crossing the street to avoid a man in a Halo shirt, but wanting to change that about herself
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

HotDogButts posted...

If a woman doesn't want to walk home alone at night and constantly crosses the street when she sees a man is she sexist?

no.

she's sexist if she says "all men are rapists," though.

right, but if she is just generally fearful of all men because they rape women at a higher rate than women, that would be the analogous situation as others being afraid of black men. my point is there is a justifiable reason for her fear but that fear should not trump how you treat people.
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SmartMuffin posted...

Nevermind that violent crime rates for black males are ridiculously high but for black females they aren't. It's almost as if this "racist stereotyping" is based on an actual observable thing and not just irrational xenophobia.

And your argument is that the state is completely unbiased with regard to law enforcement?
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HotDogButts posted...

If a woman doesn't want to walk home alone at night and constantly crosses the street when she sees a man is she sexist?

It would definitely be prejudice based on gender. Whether you think that counts as sexism or not depends on whether you care about the power imbalance aspect. (Which you should if you have a brain.)
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Jakyl25 posted...

Violent crimes for men in general are much higher than women for any race, right?

But yet people arent afraid of white men

Crime rates for black men are significantly higher than crime rates for white men.
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Kenri posted...

And your argument is that the state is completely unbiased with regard to law enforcement?

Reminds me of that snopes article that disproved the government stats showing black men as more criminal
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https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2018/apr/1/chp-suspects-felony-was-committed-during-tragic-me/

SJW activists murder their family. Do we get to call them terrorists, too?
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SmartMuffin posted...

Crime rates for black men are significantly higher than crime rates for white men.

so?
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SmartMuffin posted...

https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2018/apr/1/chp-suspects-felony-was-committed-during-tragic-me/

SJW activists murder their family. Do we get to call them terrorists, too?

How are you leaping to that conclusion?
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this is literally that dinner table argument from american history x.

is muffin going to realize he's full of shit like edward norton? probably not
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foolm0r0n posted...

HotDogButts posted...

If a woman doesn't want to walk home alone at night and constantly crosses the street when she sees a man is she sexist?

It would definitely be prejudice based on gender. Whether you think that counts as sexism or not depends on whether you care about the power imbalance aspect. (Which you should if you have a brain.)

There's no reason to even take it to power imbalances, it's literally just about survival instinct. When I am walking through Brownsville (99% black, murder capitol of NYC) at 2AM, know multiple people who have been mugged exactly where I am walking in broad daylight, I am going to be on guard and fearful of any black men I have to cross paths with. It's not a matter of prejudice or racism, it's a matter of "bad things happen in this situation, especially in this area, especially by black men." Even if the overall % chance of something violent happening to me that specific time is small, it's much higher than my normal every day chances of it happening, so I'm on guard. That's normal human psychology and it's actively dangerous to tell people they shouldn't be especially on guard in that scenario. You need to be aware of your surroundings moreso than you typically would.

The problem occurs when you start applying that fear and bias against every black male you encounter in innocuous situations and treating all black men differently because by %'s they commit more violent crime in a specific area in specific circumstances. Statistics and reality matters in how we approach situations.

It's the same reason I wouldn't carelessly dance around a house party with a gun in my hand but I would with an apple. The former behavior has a much greater chance of causing harm. It would also be stupid of me to hate guns because something very bad very may well happen if I dance around with them carelessly in a large group full of drunk people.
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It seems like in that situation you would probably avoid almost any person equally

Its not like youre in Brownville at 2AM and youre relieved to see a couple white guys coming your way
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HotDogButts posted...

I have to cross paths with. It's not a matter of prejudice or racism,

Also that is absolutely prejudice by definition, warranted or not
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HotDogButts posted...

That's normal

Therefore it's not racist?
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HotDogButts posted...

Statistics and reality matters in how we approach situations.

So basically your use of stats to unfairly generalize individuals is okay but not muffin's
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"the individual is more important than the collective, except when we're talking about statistics of black men who commit crimes. then focus on the collective."
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Jakyl25 posted...

HotDogButts posted...

I have to cross paths with. It's not a matter of prejudice or racism,

Also that is absolutely prejudice by definition, warranted or not

It's not prejudice because I am not judging anyone as a person. I am not assuming them to be violent in that situation, but I am on alert to protect myself because given the current situation I am in, it is more likely than usual that I may find myself in a violent altercation. It's a simple fact.

Drop me off in make-believe land where the incidence rate of violence is 1 in 1 billion with a 99% black population, then into that situation. Yes of course I'm going to be more wary for my safety in the area with the highest murder and violent crime rate in the state. Everything doesn't have to be boiled down to racism. Context matters, enormously.

So basically your use of stats to unfairly generalize individuals is okay but not muffin's

Context matters. It depends on what your end game is and how that boils down into your behavior towards people. If you want to deny the impact that real, quantifiable, probabilities have on dictating our behavior and why that is a good thing, go for it. Me being on alert in that circumstance doesn't equate to "black people are violent" it equates to "this is a dangerous situation." Much like running on train tracks doesn't equate to "trains are violent" it equates to "this is a dangerous situation." I don't hate trains or think ill of them because they can have a higher probability of causing me harm in certain specific situations. And I don't hate black people or think ill of them because they can have a higher probability of causing me harm in certain specific situations.

And if everything about Brownsville was exactly the same with a 99% white population, where the vast majority of violent crime was committed by men, I'd be on high alert from the white men in that situation. The race doesn't actually matter here, the statistics do.
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The individual is more important than the collective, except when you have no information about the individual other than their membership in various collectives.
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nah that guy from the KKK might be pretty cool
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http://reason.com/blog/2018/03/30/experts-agree-that-massively-popular-ros

I think Shapiro basically has this right. The mainstream identifies two groups of Trump supporters - the poor, misguided white working class that was tricked into believing his propaganda but ultimately isn't that evil because all they really want are good job - and the deplorables, the indisputably evil people who hate blacks and gays and women and muslims and everyone just because they are wicked to their core.

But actually there's a huge middle ground there that goes completely unacknowledged of principled social conservatives who are sick of SJW bullshit. Who want to fly confederate flags - not enslave black people. Who want to tell their son he can't wear a dress - not lock every gay up in a forced conversion therapy camp. Etc. These are the voters that the mainstream progressive left cannot even fathom the existence of.
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Please explain why that "middle ground" isn't part of the deplorables?
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SmartMuffin posted...

other than their membership in various collectives

There's various groupings you can immediately observe from a person, but you ignore all of them except skin color. That's why it's called racism. That's why your behavior is so easily controlled by simply showing/hiding the subject's race.
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Except they're not being ignored in my situation at all. Factors not being ignored: Neighborhood violence rate (highest), time of day (middle of night), population density (isolated).
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Man that Roseanne bit about Trump from 2016 didn't age well at all (not that it made sense to believe any of that about a liberal NY Clinton family insider back then either). Not sure why he put that in his post.

But yeah people who Trump won because of stupid or crazy people are never gonna understand it. Just like people who think Hillary voters want to force you to have anal sex with a mexican immigrant and a adopt a 7-gendered black kid who sits for the pledge of allegiance.

The truth is the vast majority of American voters love an authoritarian who will say stuff that makes them feel good and hyped. It's basic sports entertainment with a hefty byproduct of statism.
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HotDogButts posted...

Except they're not being ignored in my situation at all. Factors not being ignored: Neighborhood violence rate (highest), time of day (middle of night), population density (isolated).

Then why does the blackness matter?

ok so you said this
HotDogButts posted...

The race doesn't actually matter here, the statistics do.

So what the hell are you talking about now? If the race doesn't matter then it's not racist. Your example is entirely irrelevant. What is your point even?

Let's say there's a city that's 50/50 black/white with lots of murders. 70% of murders are committed by black men, 30% by white men. There's a white man on the left side of the road, a black man on the right side. Which side do you walk down?
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Because nearly all of the violent crime there is committed by black men. It is yet another factor that is taken into consideration. I would still be on alert if I came across a white man as well, but less so.

Now i'm waking through Brownsville in the middle of the day with people on the street, cars buzzing by, and a friend of mine. I pass a group of black guys standing on the sidewalk. I don't give two shits. Because I'm not afraid of their blackness.
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foolm0r0n posted...

But yeah people who Trump won because of stupid or crazy people are never gonna understand it. Just like people who think Hillary voters want to force you to have anal sex with a mexican immigrant and a adopt a 7-gendered black kid who sits for the pledge of allegiance.

The truth is the vast majority of American voters love an authoritarian who will say stuff that makes them feel good and hyped. It's basic sports entertainment with a hefty byproduct of statism.

tbf i think loving authoritarianism qualifies a person as stupid or crazy
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foolm0r0n posted...

HotDogButts posted...

Except they're not being ignored in my situation at all. Factors not being ignored: Neighborhood violence rate (highest), time of day (middle of night), population density (isolated).

Then why does the blackness matter?

ok so you said this
HotDogButts posted...

The race doesn't actually matter here, the statistics do.

So what the hell are you talking about now? If the race doesn't matter then it's not racist. Your example is entirely irrelevant. What is your point even?

Let's say there's a city that's 50/50 black/white with lots of murders. 70% of murders are committed by black men, 30% by white men. There's a white man on the left side of the road, a black man on the right side. Which side do you walk down?

At 2AM, with no one else on the street, alone, the rational decision is the side with the white man. Because I am already on high alert given the contributing factors. Now replay it in a situation where I'm not on high alert to begin with, I stay wherever I am, because I have judged the situation to be unlikely to result in harm, and so the fact that black men commit violent crime at 2x the rate of white men becomes insignificant to me, as it is generally a harmless situation.

You're being pedantic about my "the race doesn't matter" bit. It's not any one SPECIFIC race that matters, but if there is a high incidence of violence from a specific race in a specific place then yes, whatever that race is, in that place, is a worthwhile factor to consider in me potentially being brought to harm.
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Like Muffin said, when you have no information of the individual, you use information on the collective. If the black man is Michael Jordan, idgaf because based on my knowledge of Michael Jordan there is no reason to believe he would attack me. If I saw a black guy in an expensive suit and a briefcase talking on his cellphone, I wouldn't think he would rob me. If I saw a black guy in raggedy clothes who is more likely to be poor and prone to committing violent crime, with a hoodie obscuring his face (potentially trying to not be seen), I would be on alert. In each situation you are crunching 100 factors simulateneously to reach the likelihood of a potential outcome. And yes, sometimes race plays a part in that.
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