Board 8 > Herein lies a list of 20 video games that may or may not be the best ever! Pt. 2

(+) Yeah! (+)

Super Metroid first game (or maybe FFVI) on the list that would probably be on my top 20. Great game, especially that first play through when you're discovering everything.
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One of these days I'll try to play Super Metroid again.
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Bringing it back to DKC for a second - I replayed it (first time in 20 years?) with my brother on the Classic last year, and we had such a blast. Laughing at all the mine cart deaths, losing our minds when one of us managed victory from the jaws of defeat, and amazing ourselves by still remembering some secret locations. I forgot that nearly every level focused on a unique gimmick, and most worked very well. I also appreciated that the core platforming was quite forgiving; it seemed most of the difficulty was in the mine cart and barrel stages.

I know that a majority of the fanbase considers DKC2 to be the clear superior - can someone elaborate on why? I barely touched 2 back in the 90s, but I still consider the original to be outstanding, so 2 must be BANANAS.
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DKC2 is a masterclass of level design. It takes many of the gimmicks of DKC1 and improves upon them, while adding new ones. It's definitely harder than DKC1 though. DKC1 could be considered babby's first platformer (which isn't a bad thing), but DKC2 is more for aficionados of the genre (not that it's excruciatingly difficult by any means).
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7 | Chrono Trigger (SNES)

A-ha! So, you thought every SNES game would be part of the SNES Classic lineup, did you? Well, we gotta throw some curve balls every now and then, a little change-up to keep you guys on your toes.

(Nevermind that we aren't finished yet, or that there was really no way Chrono Trigger was going to miss this list in any way, shape or form -- it's probably one of the most consistently ranked games ever!)

If we were trying to come up with a shortlist of what might be "perfect" video games, I feel like Chrono Trigger is chomping to be in that discussion. Even if it isn't the best RPG on this list, it's hard for me to not want to call it as much. It's a classic in every sense of the world, you know? Pokemon and Mario RPG were my formative genre experiences, the ones that set the tone for what I like and look for, at least in terms of mechanics. Chrono Trigger built on top of that to solidify, to me, what made the genre so special and spectacular, before Final Fantasy VII came along with its cinematic storytelling approach that reset everything.

I like my RPGs to have level ups that raise my stats, and then, after so a certain amount of those levels I want to learn a cool, new skill! It has always been part of what makes the grind, the random battles, exciting and fun. If I spend a little extra time fighting a bunch of slimes, I'm going to probably learn a new skill, then I can go crush this boss without using all my precious Elixirs that I will actually never use because they are so precious, thereby rendering them completely useless! Is this a situation anyone else struggles with? You get all these great items, but you save them for the future, and the future ends up being maybe at the final boss, but probably not even then, because what about the SUPER FINAL BOSS?!

That paragraph took on a life of its own!

Chrono Trigger is filled to the absolute brim with charm. It's an extraordinarily fun adventure story, set across space and time, with the most colorful and memorable cast ever. The idea of traveling through different ages, ones that parallel well enough to our own history, is still incredible, I think. I would say RPGs, but really, games generally don't have such a fully realized, enjoyable premise at their core. You get to fight against an ancient, advanced dinosaur civilization in the prehistoric past all the way up to--and through-- seeing the eventual apocalyptic future. Naturally, in that future you can heal yourself of all wounds but cannot curb your need for some food. Humans gotta eat.

You get a party member who is a frog that talks like he stepped out of a Shakespeare play, and flexes when he is victorious.

It's such an unforgettable and goofy experience. It has a special quality that is almost undefinable in some ways; Chrono Trigger is more than the sum of its parts. On the story alone, it may not be worthwhile, or if you only had to live on the characters and their backstories (though I think there are some truly sad moments sprinkled throughout the journey that still hit me in the heart). Mechanically, it's not going to put up much of a fight in terms of challenge, which means you aren't going to need to explore the battle system to its fullest--and the game understands that completely. Dual- and Triple Techs are more for flash, for style, than they are for really doing the most damage, but it isn't about that. Chrono Trigger, at its root, is about being a fun time, which is why I think it has held up so remarkably well over the years. Out of any 80s or 90s RPG, Chrono Trigger would be the one someone in 2018 could play with no prior knowledge, and still feel like they were getting something special, something that wasn't just a product of its time.

We all throw around "timeless" to describe classic games, but Chrono Trigger is in a different category.

CaptainOfCrush posted...

I appreciate SM's contributions to gaming, but yeah, I just didn't dig it much. I played it around the same time you did (maybe later), and by then, I just didn't have the patience to remember the location of "that square on the map that was blocked before but may not be blocked now because of my new item." It might be my least favorite top-tier SNES game, sacrilege or not.

How did you feel about Metroid Prime? If I had to guess, I would say that's probably one of your favorite games? In my mind, MP is a 3D realization of Super, so I can see how some of the quality of life aspects in Super could cause you some hang ups. I bet if you tried it again today you might have more patience for the map and exploration. There is a moment in Super Metroid where everything will just click together, and you'll wonder why you never liked it to start, I think. Maybe not, but I know that moment when everything just makes sense is real!

I didn't think you liked FF6 that much, Lopen! Or Super Metroid for that matter! I'm not sure why, but I thought you would poo poo all over most of these old SNES games. I think I have a perpetual image of Devil May Cry and Metal Gear Solid 2 in my head that is associated to you that is incongruous with old games, haha.

CaptainOfCrush posted...

Bringing it back to DKC for a second - I replayed it (first time in 20 years?) with my brother on the Classic last year, and we had such a blast. Laughing at all the mine cart deaths, losing our minds when one of us managed victory from the jaws of defeat, and amazing ourselves by still remembering some secret locations. I forgot that nearly every level focused on a unique gimmick, and most worked very well. I also appreciated that the core platforming was quite forgiving; it seemed most of the difficulty was in the mine cart and barrel stages.

I know that a majority of the fanbase considers DKC2 to be the clear superior - can someone elaborate on why? I barely touched 2 back in the 90s, but I still consider the original to be outstanding, so 2 must be BANANAS.

DKC always has these nice stories associated to it, where people either revisit it or introduce to someone for the first time, and they have a blast experiencing it. Getting through a mine cart level is a sort of tension that is a unique beast all its own, haha. There's nothing quite like when you can feel the end is near, but then you make a jump too soon, and the moment you press the button you know you messed up. Heart in the gutter. I think Tropical Freeze had a couple of those scattered in there.

DKC2 has better level design--it takes the concepts that DKC started and sees them all the way through. You get tougher platforming challenges, which is sort of like...it has some mine cart-inspired levels without mine carts, if that makes sense. There are times where you're just platforming onto different hooks hanging in the air, and you can totally goof those jumps. You also turn into animals instead of having them as companions, which leads to some truly obnoxious moments. People might like those, I'm not sure, but I'm not a big fan. They give you new abilities that the Kongs don't have, but oh boy.

The animal levels are kind of hit or miss, but it gives them more to work with when you can revolve an entire level's design around what they can do that Diddy and Dixie can't.
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Oh hey, another good game!

Im not as nuts about CT as a lot of people are, but its got a lot of charm and I can definitely appreciate why its regarded as highly as it is.
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chrono trigger good game

is super metroid available on a handheld? feel like i'd be more likely to beat it if it were

it probably deserves a lot more of my attention than it's gotten
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

I know that a majority of the fanbase considers DKC2 to be the clear superior - can someone elaborate on why? I barely touched 2 back in the 90s, but I still consider the original to be outstanding, so 2 must be BANANAS.

In addition to superior level design and Dixie being way more fun to control than DK, it absolutely murders the original in ambience and music. DKC1 still sort of has a goofy Nintendo feel, but 2 is darker and has more of a sense of urgency. It's an improved experience in just about every way.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

chrono trigger good game

is super metroid available on a handheld? feel like i'd be more likely to beat it if it were

it probably deserves a lot more of my attention than it's gotten

based on what you've said you probably shouldn't play it because you'd quit as soon as you got stuck which would happen within 30 minutes

also I recognize Chrono Trigger's strengths but I'm not that big on it
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Super Metroid is available on the New 3DS VC
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I like my fair share of old games. It is true that most of the absolute top tier for me is from the PS2 and PS1 eras, but I wouldn't say I'm the type to scoff at NES and SNES stuff. I am a bit more down on the more popular stuff, like I don't care much for Super Mario World, Donkey Kong Countrys, or a lot of the SNES RPGs, and my favorite Zelda game is Zelda 2 Adventure of Link (I do actually like LttP a lot too though)

The Castlevanias, Ninja Gaidens, Double Dragons, and Mega Mans from the NES are mostly awesome. SNES has some great stuff too, though most of it came later in its life. Lufia 2, Tetris Attack, Kirby Super Star-- pretty sure these all came 95 or later, along with the two I already approved of appearing in 1994.

Super Metroid and FFVI in particular hold special places for me in the SNES library I got those two together (did I get anything else that Christmas? I'm not sure!) during maybe my most happy Christmas I remember. I played the hell out of em.

Chrono Trigger is another one of those games I'm kinda down on. I do like the game (and to this day it remains the first RPG I'd recommend a non RPG person play because it's simple, but not overly so, and very well paced) but a lot less than most people. It doesn't do a lot wrong, but at the same time it doesn't really reach any great highs for me-- in large part because I think the cast is a bit wooden. I was always in the FFVI camp when comparing the two.
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LeonhartFour posted...

based on what you've said you probably shouldn't play it because you'd quit as soon as you got stuck which would happen within 30 minutes

that's definitely what happened when i played it for 30 minutes way back when. but i think handheld might work for me better, or just approaching it with a fresh mindset - i got through four metroidvania games (though mostly not the "true ends" for those) - feel like i kind of owe it a bit to SM for being the grandmommy game?

Arti posted...

Super Metroid is available on the New 3DS VC

this i do not own :/

Lopen posted...

I was always in the FFVI camp when comparing the two.

they're 1 and 2 for me, RPG-wise!
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I need to play Chrono Trigger for reals. I tried it on DS once and it just didn't click with me at that time. Though, to be honest, that's usually been the case with 2D JRPGs that aren't Pokmon - and I think it's because I got my start with Tales of Symphonia and that made going back hard.

I would likely feel the same way about Super Metroid, especially given my replay of Metroid Prime at present. The immediacy of that would be a culture shock of sorts. From your write-up, I gather the similarities between the two. I am frustrated by the random locales I must remember for items unretrieved. It is this that makes me not want to get to 100% but I probably should anyway...
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SeabassDebeste posted...

they're 1 and 2 for me, RPG-wise!

SNES that's not bad, practically expected aside from the Earthbound or Mario RPG weirdos. I'd put Lufia 2 in, probably between FFVI and CT. Maybe at #1. There isn't much other competition on the SNES. FFIV on the SNES wasn't great-- its 3DS version is but that's a very different game. FFV would be but I consider it a PS1/GBA game more than an SNES one even if it should be an SNES game. Nothing else really registers. I like Breath of Fire more than most people but CT is better than that one.

I suspect that's all time though, where I would disagree a lot more. As an RPG machine I'd put the SNES below the PS1, PS2, and even the GBA, DS and 3DS. CT might not even make a top 20 RPGs list for me when I think about it. Probably would but it'd be towards the tail end.
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keep in mind that SD has beaten like three RPGs
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I guess I should've assumed as much given his noted lack of video game attention span in the topic.
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Chrono Trigger the 2nd best RPG ever made. Flawless.
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LeonhartFour posted...

keep in mind that SD has beaten like three RPGs

hey... make that three other RPGs!
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Oh cool. I thought you were the big Friday Monsters fan on here. Glad to see it made the list.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

In addition to superior level design and Dixie being way more fun to control than DK, it absolutely murders the original in ambience and music. DKC1 still sort of has a goofy Nintendo feel, but 2 is darker and has more of a sense of urgency. It's an improved experience in just about every way.

This is a good point for DKC2 that I forgot about! I like how DKC1's world unfolds and evolves, but DKC2 has a pervasive sense of intensity and darkness that builds and builds all the way until the end. There's probably no better example than the K. Rool fight in DKC1 compared to the K. Rool fight in DKC2 -- the atmosphere, the challenge, the look and music. Soundtrack is definitely a winner, too.

I'm surprised to see so many people being kind of so-so about CT. Everyone seems to recognize it's a quality game, but not so much a favorite with this group! I thought you guys would be all about some Trigger!

As far as RPGs go, I think the SNES has the strongest selection of top tier games in the genre. I would say, hmm, the DS and PS1 are the next contenders, but oof, the PS2? I think the PS2, as a console, is mildly hot garbage across the board, haha. Naturally, I felt differently at the time, when a typical PS2 game was just what we all knew as normal, but revisiting those experiences today is a shock to my system. I still love FFX's battle system, for instance, but I want nothing to do with anything else that game is trying to serve me. It's the voice acting, the dialogue, the amount of cutscenes--those were the calling cards of a PS2 game. Shadow Hearts is not even safe from being like "uh oh, we had some lower expectations, didn't we?"

heroicmario posted...

"uh oh, we had some lower expectations, didn't we?"

heroicmario posted...

18 | Super Mario Kart (SNES)

heroicmario posted...

13 | Pokmon RBY (GB)

heroicmario posted...

9 | Donkey Kong Country (SNES)

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Chrono Trigger is cool but I honestly can't remember anything about its story other than Laavos destroying the world. I remember enjoying it a lot when I played it but I don't have super fond memories of it like I do with other 16 bit RPGs such as FF6, Terranigma or Earthbound.
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PS2 still top tier
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Listen.

The most you will hear a character talk in those games is the sweet sound of DKs idle chest pounding to scare the standing-on-two-legs crocodile pirates.

The most cutscene you will get is the disappointment of waking into your cave to find your banana stash has been stolen, and what that means to your very existence.

Or, you know, the screeching, speaker destroying sound of a Pikachu.

FFX & Persona 4 would beat CT & FFVI & Lufia 2 for me at the top end.

On the quantity end between Suikoden V (some like III too), Kingdom Hearts 1&2 (if you count them), Disgaea 1&2, Xenosaga, Shadow Hearts, Breath of Fire games, Wild Arms games, Tales of the Abyss you're well stocked. I can't speak for the quality of the last few as I never got around to anything at or after Xenosaga, but there's a fair amount of potentially good well regarded games there even if a lot of em aren't clicking for each individual person.
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I agree on the PS2 era not aging well. Most games felt the need to throw in voice acting, which was not up to par yet outside of a few titles, and too many games (RPGs especially) forced that janky 3D graphic style instead of just polishing sprites. It's definitely tough to return to, whereas I could be in awe of PSX-era JRPGs forever.
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Lopen posted...

Breath of Fire games

*game
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To be sure, there ARE still PS2 games I highly regard, but most of them might as well be unplayable for me today. I wouldnt want to revisit my old favorites, because every time I have done that, with some exception, its been a wake up call to a bunch of questionable designs.

ICO, Okami, DQ8, Persona 4, MGS2those are probably my best five PS2 games.

(I know we al expected to see Dirge of Cerberus.)

Also, I will reiterate as someone who recently replayed through a cutscene-heavy PS2 game, that your PS2 takes continue to be ridiculous.
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heroicmario posted...

but most of them might as well be unplayable for me today.

well most of them aren't on Nintendo consoles so yeah
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

I agree on the PS2 era not aging well. Most games felt the need to throw in voice acting, which was not up to par yet outside of a few titles, and too many games (RPGs especially) forced that janky 3D graphic style instead of just polishing sprites. It's definitely tough to return to, whereas I could be in awe of PSX-era JRPGs forever.

Yes! This is exactly what Im saying! I absolutely adore the PS1 era JRPGs, Ive always preferred it between the two, and I think distance makes them even better. Certainly, your average PS1 games dont look like homeruns, but if you can get past that, the games themselves are excellent.

Lopen posted...

FFX & Persona 4 would beat CT & FFVI & Lufia 2 for me at the top end.

On the quantity end between Suikoden V (some like III too), Kingdom Hearts 1&2 (if you count them), Disgaea 1&2, Xenosaga, Shadow Hearts, Breath of Fire games, Wild Arms games, Tales of the Abyss you're well stocked. I can't speak for the quality of the last few as I never got around to anything at or after Xenosaga, but there's a fair amount of potentially good well regarded games there even if a lot of em aren't clicking for each individual person.

For me, when I look at that list, I see why people would love the PS2 era, because there was no shortage of well received RPGs, but that list is the antithesis of what I like about the genre, or games in general. With the exception of Shadow Hearts, I dabbled around in those other games and either hated them (KH1, Xenosaga) or found them middling (KH2). The idea of revisiting a RPG like Suikoden 3 feels painful without even inserting the disc, haha.

But I understand what youre saying. There are no shortage of well received PS2 games to go around, I just think, on an individual level, that most of them dont hold up to my own expectations and wants out of a video game in 2018. It isnt about old games, generally, not holding up, but more that awkward growing period figuring out how to incorporate cutscenes and voice acting, balancing that against fun gameplay systems, and not having to investment a lifetime to experience it all.

hm why do you think every ps2 rpg is xenosaga
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Obviously once you've played xenosaga you forget any other ps2 rpgs exist
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he seems to think every PS2 game is Xenosaga, not just RPGs
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I will say that while the PS2 is my favorite console, it's not largely due to the RPGs on it, as evidenced by the fact that I've haven't played over half the games I listed there. By that time most of my RPG playing was on portables. PS1 is definitely the peak for RPGs for me. One of the portables would probably be #2. SNES and PS2 have their good entries but are fairly top-heavy.

Don't really think it has anything to do with rushed voice acting or cutscenes or whatever else though. If anything I would say that plagues the big releases on the PS1 more than the PS2-- like the FF games there are practically glacial.
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LeonhartFour posted...

he seems to think every PS2 game is Xenosaga, not just RPGs

Overlong, imprecise, clunky: Zone of the Enders 2
Tight, well-thought out, no wasted moments: Okami
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Okami, one of the games HM has openly claimed he's afraid to play because the PS2 is, and I quote, "mildly hot garbage"
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My favorite games tend to primarily center around Nintendo systems, but it's because, well, I grew up on Nintendo games! I have no problem saying I have a bias toward them, even today! I think they make the best video games out of any developer, the most consistently high quality experiences that mesh with my own interests, but to be sure, I like other games on other platforms as well. It's not as accurate today, with the mass consolidation and multiplatform releases happening, but certain consoles tend to attract certain types of games, yeah? It isn't to say there are right or wrong ones, good or bad ones, necessarily, but depending on what you're into, and what you like, you're more likely to be interested in the next PlayStation console (now, or historically) compared to a Nintendo console. There is obviously a lot of crossover, to get "everything," but you know what I mean. Nintendo satisfies my gaming preferences at the top, but when we get further out (because, c'mon 20 game isn't a lot!) that expands to include a whole bunch of other games and types and developers. I don't think it's really that wrong!

iiicon posted...

hm why do you think every ps2 rpg is xenosaga

Because this was a harrowing experience that I will not soon forget. 10 hours of an intro, and then a super dungeon? It's sadism is what it is!

More seriously, I don't want to come across as though I experienced the full breadth of the PS2 library -- far from it! Most of the PS2 I never even touched, for one reason or another (a lot of it had to do with the fact that I didn't find much of it particularly appealing). I never played Disgaea, or post-Tales of Symphonia Tales games, or a lot of the lesser known RPGs like Breath of Fire, or even Zone of the Enders, like you mentioned!

I only know what I did play, you know? I wasn't a big PS guy during that time, I had a GameCube, then got an Xbox when Halo 2 came out, because everyone and their mother was playing Halo, haha. I got a PS2 right around the time DQ8 came out, and then caught up on some recommended hits ("hits") from there. I love Onimusha, DMC3 was a good time, ICO still touches me (I first played it on the PS3), but it's just a hard sell to get me into those PS2 RPGs today.

I can't imagine going back to play ZotE in 2018. That sounds like a complete nightmare
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Im on team #antiPS2 here
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There are dozens of us.

LeonhartFour posted...

Okami, one of the games HM has openly claimed he's afraid to play because the PS2 is, and I quote, "mildly hot garbage"

Hohohothis is Nintendo game now!

i've beaten like one ps2 game and my verdict is it's a good console
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don't worry aitch emm I've got your back on chrono trigger

not the best jrpg imo, but the most solid all-around
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I would expect most people to fall on the side of the PS2 being an all-time console. I realize Im on the wrong side of history with this, but sometimes you just gotta speak out! #antiPS2

Not the best RPG is something I can agree with. Not even the best SNES RPG, maybe? Hohoho.

Ill try to take us to the top 5 tonight. Im still coming down from that excellent Nintendo Direct today.

PS2 is a fantastic console, easily the best of its generation. I just think it's "overrated" in the sense that it would routinely be placed amongst the SNES and PSX in the greatest console of all time discussion, when I think it's a tier below the elites.
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