Poll of the Day > Why didn't Gandalf just apparate into Mt. Doom?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Did he not know the spell?
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Wouldnt matter if he did. Gandalf felt he couldnt carry the ring without succumbing to its power.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00Jjj6oI5fg

OhhhJa posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00Jjj6oI5fg

Okay, let's be real here this is just a cop out on the author's part. A great cop out because Tolkien knew what the fuck he was doing and covered his ass well, but a cop out nonetheless. There's no reason to believe Gandalf is any easier to corrupt than Frodo. In fact, Gollum gives a pretty good indication on just how easy it can be for hobbits to be corrupted. You also can't use the "mortal man" excuse with Gandalf either. For details on that go read The Silmarillion
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He never mentions being easier to corrupt, he doesn't want it because when it does eventually corrupt him (and it will) it would turn him into an incredibly powerful servant of Sauron, same reason Galadriel would never want it, whereas a hobbit that has been corrupted turns into a miserable husk of their former self - dangerous, but not Maia dangerous.
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It's not that Gandalf is "easier to corrupt", it's that Gandalf (like Galadriel) knows better than anyone what terrible things could happen if something so powerful DID corrupt someone like him. And he knows that he himself would try to use it for good (at first). Remember, Gandalf already holds one of the other rings of power.
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Which is part of what makes it a great cop out. Tolkien could have just given Gandalf the ring and been done with it, but doing so would mean no book. Most other writers wouldn't even acknowledge the fact that the most powerful person in the group should be carrying the artifact of power, and if they do it's usually some half-ased reason like not being pure of heart or something.

Here, we have Gandalf's own "character personality" preventing him from taking the ring. He's wise enough and has the forethought that taking the ring could easily turn disastrous. People can argue all they want on whether or not Gandalf would actually get corrupted, but you can't argue character personality because it trumps everything.
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The ring would corrupt Gandalf eventually, if there was no chance of that happening he wouldn't hesitate to take the it. The ring twists the minds of all those that carry it, eventually Gandalf's thoughts would no longer be his own, or at least not originating from the same Gandalf that refused the ring in FOTR.

But yeah considering Gandalf and Sauron are both Maiar it's humbling to see him refuse to take the ring, he knows he could wield unimaginable power with it but any urge or desire to take advantage of that is pushed back by his knowledge of what the ring is capable off and his desire to see it's evil destroyed.
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Wasn't it partly because hobbits are more resistant to being corrupted by the ring too whereas men and wizards can be quickly corrupted when it's even just nearby?

The more power you had, the easier it was for the ring to corrupt you. Thats why hobbits were a good choice for ring bearer, they dont hold much power
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Why can't Mega Man just warp to the boss room?

Shinebolt posted...

People can argue all they want on whether or not Gandalf would actually get corrupted

It absolutely would though. I mean, it corrupted all 3 of the hobbits that had it.
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GanonsSpirit posted...

Shinebolt posted...

People can argue all they want on whether or not Gandalf would actually get corrupted

It absolutely would though. I mean, it corrupted all 3 of the hobbits that had it.

Sam was never corrupted.

Questionmarktarius posted...

GanonsSpirit posted...

Shinebolt posted...

People can argue all they want on whether or not Gandalf would actually get corrupted

It absolutely would though. I mean, it corrupted all 3 of the hobbits that had it.

Sam was never corrupted.

I'm talking about Bilbo, Frodo, and Gollum. Sam had it for like 10 minutes.
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Why don't they just capture an orc, chop off his limbs, shove the ring down its throat, and bag him up to prevent corruption while traveling.
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As what is effectively an angel - Gandalf can only do things when it looks like he's doing nothing.
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I dont understand why they never gave it to Dobby. He was shown to be rather powerful and had a good heart

quesogrande posted...

Did he not know the spell?

One doesn't just apparate into Mordor.
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VeeVees posted...

Why don't they just capture an orc, chop off his limbs, shove the ring down its throat, and bag him up to prevent corruption while traveling.

Because you don't have to physically hold on to the ring to be corrupted by it (for example boromir) and someone could just steal it while everyone was asleep

I feel like people try way too hard to poke holes in the lotr plot. You can poke holes in the plot of almost any story if you put your mind to it

So literally no one in this topic has ever read the books. Check.

It's spelled out pretty explicitly in the books that Gandalf (as well as the other wizards like Saruman or Radagast) is not allowed to directly oppose Sauron. Advise people? Yes. Help lead others? Sure. Do minor stuff with the ultimate goal of leading to Sauron's defeat? Absolutely. But Gandalf isn't allowed to fight Sauron directly, and part of that is almost certainly not being able to take the one specific action that auto-kills him.

The Valar would prefer to see Middle-Earth plunged into eternal darkness for all time than have one of the Istari straight up fight Sauron. If Men and Elves cannot save themselves, then Men and Elves do not deserve to be saved.


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I've read the trilogy but it's been a while and I've surely forgotten a lot of little plot elements like that. Also read a bit of the silmarillion but got bored and never picked it up again

OhhhJa posted...

You can poke holes in the plot of almost any story if you put your mind to it

Why park the Death Star on the other side of Yavin?

ParanoidObsessive posted...

So literally no one in this topic has ever read the books. Check.

It's spelled out pretty explicitly in the books that Gandalf (as well as the other wizards like Saruman or Radagast) is not allowed to directly oppose Sauron. Advise people? Yes. Help lead others? Sure. Do minor stuff with the ultimate goal of leading to Sauron's defeat? Absolutely. But Gandalf isn't allowed to fight Sauron directly, and part of that is almost certainly not being able to take the one specific action that auto-kills him.

The Valar would prefer to see Middle-Earth plunged into eternal darkness for all time than have one of the Istari straight up fight Sauron. If Men and Elves cannot save themselves, then Men and Elves do not deserve to be saved.

Why?

because "god works in mysterious ways"
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MICHALECOLE posted...

ParanoidObsessive posted...

So literally no one in this topic has ever read the books. Check.

It's spelled out pretty explicitly in the books that Gandalf (as well as the other wizards like Saruman or Radagast) is not allowed to directly oppose Sauron. Advise people? Yes. Help lead others? Sure. Do minor stuff with the ultimate goal of leading to Sauron's defeat? Absolutely. But Gandalf isn't allowed to fight Sauron directly, and part of that is almost certainly not being able to take the one specific action that auto-kills him.

The Valar would prefer to see Middle-Earth plunged into eternal darkness for all time than have one of the Istari straight up fight Sauron. If Men and Elves cannot save themselves, then Men and Elves do not deserve to be saved.

Why?

They are guardian angels.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

So literally no one in this topic has ever read the books. Check.

I've read all of the main books, thank you very much.
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Lil69Leo posted...

MICHALECOLE posted...

ParanoidObsessive posted...

So literally no one in this topic has ever read the books. Check.

It's spelled out pretty explicitly in the books that Gandalf (as well as the other wizards like Saruman or Radagast) is not allowed to directly oppose Sauron. Advise people? Yes. Help lead others? Sure. Do minor stuff with the ultimate goal of leading to Sauron's defeat? Absolutely. But Gandalf isn't allowed to fight Sauron directly, and part of that is almost certainly not being able to take the one specific action that auto-kills him.

The Valar would prefer to see Middle-Earth plunged into eternal darkness for all time than have one of the Istari straight up fight Sauron. If Men and Elves cannot save themselves, then Men and Elves do not deserve to be saved.

Why?

They are guardian angels.

Okay.. so whats stopping them?

MICHALECOLE posted...

Okay.. so whats stopping them?

The book would be about three paragraphs long, probably less.

"This is Sauron. He's bad. This is Gandalf. He's good. Gandalf kicked Sauron's ass. The end. Also Tom Bombadil is there somewhere."

ParanoidObsessive posted...

So literally no one in this topic has ever read the books. Check.

Lol nice assumption.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

MICHALECOLE posted...

Okay.. so whats stopping them?

The book would be about three paragraphs long, probably less.

"This is Sauron. He's bad. This is Gandalf. He's good. Gandalf kicked Sauron's ass. The end. Also Tom Bombadil is there somewhere."

Thats not a reason.. if that is the reason as PO is saying, then there has to be a reason for the reason

I haven't read the books in a very long time so I can't remember every detail.

As for why the Valar can't interfere, it's written in the song that created the world of Middle-Earth (Middle-Earth is just a continent btw, don't remember the name of the planet itself aside from the earlier name which was Ardah or something similar). Elves are the first-born of the creator of the world and men are the second-born. The Valar are not allowed to directly interfere with the second-born and instead forced to observe them from a distance as part of the punishment for the creator's song being corrupted.

Like I said, can't remember everything so I'm still probably forgetting things and getting others wrong. Go read The Silmarillion for an accurate explanation.

...and thanks for the reminder despite you jumping to assumptions.
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Metalsonic66 posted...

I've read all of the main books, thank you very much.

You need to read The Silmarillion.

But even in the main books, Gandalf sort of hints at the fact that he's not supposed to be a warrior as much as he's supposed to inspire the mortals to save themselves.



MICHALECOLE posted...

Why?

Because when the Valar fought against Morgoth, it literally broke the world. They basically say straight out that they're unwilling to fight a war like that against Sauron again for fear of breaking things even worse.

Which actually encourages Sauron to be an even bigger dick, because he KNOWS this, and assumes the Valar will never interfere in him conquering and dominating the world outside of Aman, which is why it comes as a great shock to him when they sink Numenor.

The Istari were basically sent to Middle Earth as sort of a half-assed gesture of help. "Ehh, I guess we shouldn't totally abandon them. Hey, you five minor angels go help them. Except you have to disguise yourselves as mortals, you can't use most of your powers, and you're definitely not allowed to fight Sauron head on. Just... inspire the mortals to be better and stand up for themselves."



Shinebolt posted...

The Valar are not allowed to directly interfere with the second-born and instead forced to observe them from a distance as part of the punishment for the creator's song being corrupted.

They're allowed to interfere, they just choose not to for the most part because they're afraid if they screw things up too badly it might ruin the intended destiny of the world in the same way that Melkur tried to ruin the song and later tried to ruin Arda itself. So after the War of Wrath they're very leery of doing anything all that potent, which is part of why they effectively wall themselves off in Aman forever and "bend" the road to prevent anyone ever finding it again.

The overgod doesn't really give much of a shit because as he says, even evil tends to serve his purposes (which he never bothers to explain), but he DOES say that the Valar have no power to revoke the "gift" of death from humans, because dying and passing beyond the bounds of the world is part of his plan for them, as opposed to the elves, who can essentially live forever barring accidents and even then reincarnate eventually because their souls are bound to the world (which is why everybody gets so flustered over the "halfelven" nonsense).


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I don't claim to be a Lord of the Rings lore expert, but how far away do you need to be from the Ring to not be effected by it? Lots of people hang out around Frodo are aren't effected by the Ring, can't you just carry it in a very large bag to keep it a good distance from yourself while transporting it?
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

You need to read The Silmarillion.

I've wanted to for a while, but I've heard it's a slow read, and I have quite a few books in my backlog at the moment.
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why didn't gandalf just put the ring on his dong

no one's gonna wanna touch it if it's been on an old man's dong
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DarkKirby2500 posted...

I don't claim to be a Lord of the Rings lore expert, but how far away do you need to be from the Ring to not be effected by it? Lots of people hang out around Frodo are aren't effected by the Ring, can't you just carry it in a very large bag to keep it a good distance from yourself while transporting it?

There's some psychological implications as well. The ring itself probably doesn't corrupt unless you come into physical contact with it. Bilbo had the ring for some time yet Frodo didn't get affected by it until he started carrying it around himself. Boromir, on the other hand, was pretty much corrupted without touching it. So, just knowing of it's existence may really be enough, and after that it's just a matter of desire and lust for power.
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Probably anti-apparition charms around Mordor
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mario2000 posted...

why didn't gandalf just put the ring on his dong

the ring changes size, so maybe he didn't want his pecker pinched
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he's a wizard

he could just change the size of his pecker accordingly
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Metalsonic66 posted...

ParanoidObsessive posted...

You need to read The Silmarillion.

I've wanted to for a while, but I've heard it's a slow read, and I have quite a few books in my backlog at the moment.

It's like reading the Old Testament in the King James Bible (which is kind of deliberate). It can be a very hard slog unless you can get into it.

That being said, it describes literally thousands of years worth of history, and tons of stories which are probably more interesting than anything Bilbo, Frodo, or Gandalf ever did. The only downside being that the scale means that it describes events that take decades over the span of a few paragraphs, and is more historically descriptive than narrative. So it can feel REALLY dry.



DarkKirby2500 posted...

I don't claim to be a Lord of the Rings lore expert, but how far away do you need to be from the Ring to not be effected by it? Lots of people hang out around Frodo are aren't effected by the Ring, can't you just carry it in a very large bag to keep it a good distance from yourself while transporting it?

It's seemingly less about how far away from it you are, and more how much it wants to try and influence you. It clearly reaches out to entice certain people more than others, mainly so that it can manipulate events to get itself back into Sauron's hands.

It generally WON'T reach out to stronger wills like Gandalf because even if it corrupts them they'll still use it for themselves (and will probably destroy Sauron with it even if they eventually become as bad or worse than him over time), and it doesn't bother with people it sees as being worthless to its goals (like Merry or Pippin), but it can apparently stretch its influence pretty far to trigger random orc attacks (to get Isildur killed) or start to subvert people like Boromir over time.


Shinebolt posted...

and after that it's just a matter of desire and lust for power.

Not even that, since it's pretty clearly spelled out that Gandalf doesn't really lust for power or even want the Ring, yet he understands full well that it will corrupt him as soon as he has it (Galadriel is actually a different case, because she IS self-aware enough to understand that she DOES want power - part of why she came to Middle Earth in the first place was to claim land and dominion, and that her younger self probably would have succumbed to the lure of the Ring whereas her older, more world-weary self does not).

And while the movies sort of make Boromir look like a jerk from the start, it's clearer in the books that he's actually a pretty noble soul who doesn't really desire power per se as much as he just wants to save Gondor (in the same way that Denethor was very much a good man until he fell under the power of Sauron via the Palantir). Faramir is probably as close as you ever come to seeing what Boromir and Denethor were like before being influenced by the evil of Sauron through the Ring and the Stone respectively.

But the Ring is clearly limited in just how much control it can exert, because otherwise it would have just turned Gollum into a crazy deathseeker and had him march directly into Mordor and back to Sauron long ago.


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Metalsonic66 posted...

ParanoidObsessive posted...

You need to read The Silmarillion.

I've wanted to for a while, but I've heard it's a slow read, and I have quite a few books in my backlog at the moment.

It's like reading the Old Testament in the King James Bible (which is kind of deliberate). It can be a very hard slog unless you can get into it.

That being said, it describes literally thousands of years worth of history, and tons of stories which are probably more interesting than anything Bilbo, Frodo, or Gandalf ever did. The only downside being that the scale means that it describes events that take decades over the span of a few paragraphs, and is more historically descriptive than narrative. So it can feel REALLY dry.

DarkKirby2500 posted...

I don't claim to be a Lord of the Rings lore expert, but how far away do you need to be from the Ring to not be effected by it? Lots of people hang out around Frodo are aren't effected by the Ring, can't you just carry it in a very large bag to keep it a good distance from yourself while transporting it?

It's seemingly less about how far away from it you are, and more how much it wants to try and influence you. It clearly reaches out to entice certain people more than others, mainly so that it can manipulate events to get itself back into Sauron's hands.

It generally WON'T reach out to stronger wills like Gandalf because even if it corrupts them they'll still use it for themselves (and will probably destroy Sauron with it even if they eventually become as bad or worse than him over time), and it doesn't bother with people it sees as being worthless to its goals (like Merry or Pippin), but it can apparently stretch its influence pretty far to trigger random orc attacks (to get Isildur killed) or start to subvert people like Boromir over time.

Shinebolt posted...

and after that it's just a matter of desire and lust for power.

Not even that, since it's pretty clearly spelled out that Gandalf doesn't really lust for power or even want the Ring, yet he understands full well that it will corrupt him as soon as he has it (Galadriel is actually a different case, because she IS self-aware enough to understand that she DOES want power - part of why she came to Middle Earth in the first place was to claim land and dominion, and that her younger self probably would have succumbed to the lure of the Ring whereas her older, more world-weary self does not).

And while the movies sort of make Boromir look like a jerk from the start, it's clearer in the books that he's actually a pretty noble soul who doesn't really desire power per se as much as he just wants to save Gondor (in the same way that Denethor was very much a good man until he fell under the power of Sauron via the Palantir). Faramir is probably as close as you ever come to seeing what Boromir and Denethor were like before being influenced by the evil of Sauron through the Ring and the Stone respectively.

But the Ring is clearly limited in just how much control it can exert, because otherwise it would have just turned Gollum into a crazy deathseeker and had him march directly into Mordor and back to Sauron long ago.

I wasn't talking about Gandalf in that post. It was just a general statement on how the ring corrupts. Also, "desire" and "lust for power" aren't meant to be treated as the same thing. I'm well aware of what Boromir's intentions were, but that desire is what led him to be corrupted for a brief moment which honestly is the truly scary part about the ring. It can twist an otherwise noble inner desire to do good into something malevolent. And that part about Gandalf just goes back to what I said earlier about his own personality really.
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In addition to what PO has mentioned, one of the other reasons why Gandalf wants the ring to stay with Frodo is because Hobbits make incredibly good ringbearers simply by dint of who they are.

All of the rings of power, including the One Ring, work by understanding what their bearer desires. For instance, humans - one of the few mortal races in LotR and easily one of the most short-lived - desire long life, so the human kings who received the rings of power had their lives stretched far beyond their natural lifespan and became the Nazgul. The dwarves' greatest desire was treasure - natch - so the rings allowed them to accumulate vast treasure hordes (which typically resulted in a sudden, violent death due to attracting dragons or unearthing balrogs or other similar calamities), but also had the side effect of making them extraordinarily greedy and self-centred. The elves desired a stop to the slow fading of their lands and so their rings preserved and sustained the elven realms (the elven rings are also a bit special given that Sauron did not have a hand in their creation; while they still draw power from The One Ring, Sauron can't use them to dominate their bearers the same way that he can with the other 17 rings).

The One Ring - whose power flows through the other 19 rings and is what makes them work - is an extension of Sauron's will and Sauron's "thing" is mind control and the domination of lesser beings. He worms his way into the hearts and minds of the ring bearers by playing on their greatest desires and, in doing so, has a highly effective way of subverting their freedom and bending them to his will. The One Ring, in essence, directly whispers to its bearer (and anyone else nearby) and promises them the power to do whatever they most desire. This is exactly why the various Gondor characters (Boromir, Denethor, Faramir) all believe the ring can bring them victory against Mordor - not because it can actually do that, but because the ring is corrupting their minds and telling them that it can. The greater the desire (and the weaker the mental fortitude of the afflicted), the faster this corruption takes place. Gandalf has a strong heart, but also a great desire to see the world saved, and given that he is weaker than Sauron he likely would not be able to withstand the corruption for long enough to properly dispose of the ring.

Which brings us to Hobbits, who are famously unconcerned with the goings on of the surrounding world and - per Bilbo's own observations - generally desire nothing more than a simple life: a hearty meal, a pint of strong ale, a pipe to smoke, and a field to till. This makes them remarkably resilient to the ring's temptations, because there is virtually nothing that they can be tempted with that they don't already have. It's not impossible to corrupt a Hobbit - Frodo, Bilbo, and Gollum all succumb to the ring, to varying degrees - but they are more resilient than virtually any other race of creatures in Middle Earth.
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darkknight109 posted...

Which brings us to Hobbits, who are famously unconcerned with the goings on of the surrounding world and - per Bilbo's own observations - generally desire nothing more than a simple life: a hearty meal, a pint of strong ale, a pipe to smoke, and a field to till.

So... the ring should turn a hobbit into a basement-dwelling NEET?

Suddenly, Gollum makes way more sense than he should. If only he had the internet down there.

If we're really going on about baffling plot holes regarding transporting the One Ring to the fires of Mt Doom, why didn't they just ask the eagles to fly the Ringbearer straight to Mt Doom, fly up to the edge of the rim, and chuck the ring into the pit?

Bam! Done.
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

If we're really going on about baffling plot holes regarding transporting the One Ring to the fires of Mt Doom, why didn't they just ask the eagles to fly the Ringbearer straight to Mt Doom, fly up to the edge of the rim, and chuck the ring into the pit?

Bam! Done.

That's actually a common question. I think the usual answer is that the Eagles didn't think it was worth the risk.
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

If we're really going on about baffling plot holes regarding transporting the One Ring to the fires of Mt Doom, why didn't they just ask the eagles to fly the Ringbearer straight to Mt Doom, fly up to the edge of the rim, and chuck the ring into the pit?

Something something, forbidden to mess with Sauron directly.
Of course, after Sauron gets dead, there's no longer any prohibition against sending in the birdies.

WhiskeyDisk posted...

If we're really going on about baffling plot holes regarding transporting the One Ring to the fires of Mt Doom, why didn't they just ask the eagles to fly the Ringbearer straight to Mt Doom, fly up to the edge of the rim, and chuck the ring into the pit?

Bam! Done.

There's a few reasons, actually, because this particular argument is decades old.

For one, they could have, but the Eagles are an intelligent race (actually incarnated Maiar - basically flying Gandalfs) and they're not anyone's servants. They can grant requests if they want to, but they can't be ordered to be a flying taxi service. The Eagles are a proud bunch, so they might be insulted with such a request. Notably, in the Hobbit, they rescue Bilbo and company but pointedly refuse to take them more than a little ways away from danger, because they have their own things to do and aren't there just to be glorified flying horses. Hell, in the book the eagle that saves Gandalf from Saruman does so purely by coincidence - he was coming on behalf of Radaghast, friend to all birds and beasts, to deliver a message (since Gandalf was having his mail forwarded to Orthanc at the time), rather than responding to a plea from Gandalf like in the films.

For two, there's also the fact that the ring needed to be dropped into the Cracks of Doom - just plunking it into the top of the volcano wasn't good enough, it had to be taken back to the exact spot where it had been originally forged. And while the eagles could ostensibly fly Frodo close, Sauron is frantically searching for the ring (and has birds as spies), so Eagles with a halfling rider would be a giant giveaway that the ring is on its way - they'd either get attacked by ringwraiths and fell beasts (best of luck staying on the eagle's back through that fight) or have a massive army of orcs waiting wherever they landed.

For three, because Eagles are Maiar (and therefore quite powerful), putting the ring near one would be much like giving it to Gandalf - a calamity if they succumb to its influence.

Finally, for the most authoritative answer, in The Silmarillion Tolkein actually addresses this issue and indicates that the Eagles are personal servents of Manwe Sulimo, who is basically the second-most powerful entity in the entire Lord of the Rings (Manwe is king of the Valar, who are basically archangels or demigods, and is second-in-command to Eru Iluvatar, "God" of Lord of the Rigns). Divine beings in LotR - as PO alluded to above - are generally non-interventionist and want the lesser beings to sort out their own problems. As such, the eagles would have been under orders not to interfere except in the direst of circumstances.
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I will accept those answers although they do seem rather...contrived. I'm sure asking Radaghast to put in a special request would not have been completely out of line under the circumstances...I would think Sauron raising an orc army to conquer Middle Earth might constitute "dire circumstances" if he was so close to getting his claws on the One Ring.
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