Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 158: A Wolff in Sheep's Clothing

(+) Yeah! (+)

The most important thing one can do these days is spend less time online and more time reading, studying a new subject, doing physical activity, trying new restaurants/businesses in the flesh, etc. Ive toned down so much internet use and my god is it better
---

TheRock1525 posted...

Btw:

Sexual assault is an act in which a person sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.

This is sometimes lost on people in these cases.

what that he did constitutes coercion to you?
---

MoogleKupo141 posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

Btw:

Sexual assault is an act in which a person sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.

This is sometimes lost on people in these cases.

what that he did constitutes coercion to you?

The most obvious one would be after she remarked she didn't want to have sex on a first date, him replying "if I poured you some more wine, would that count as our second date?" The fact that he kept following her around as she tried to pull away from his stupid finger technique. The fact that he kept asking "where do you want me to fuck you?" over and over again.

Sounds like he was trying to coerce the entire time despite her uncomfortable feelings. Some verbal and some non-verbal as she claims.
---

Like I'd rather people just agree to Aziz's account (everything was consensual) instead of reading the account and going "yup, perfectly acceptable behaviour."
---

That sounds more like persistant bargaining than coercion to me. There's no threats and he had no power over her... nothing actually kept her from leaving the situation.

I think he should have been able to read her body language to know she genuinely wasn't into what was going on, but I don't think what he did crosses the line to actual assault.
---

UltimaterializerX posted...

Metal_DK posted...

Social media turns everything into some massive issue in the centralized internet era. Social media ruins society

You are not wrong. I've been deleting and detaching myself from it entirely, outside of things that are actually normal like enjoying sporting events. That Vikings finish was just better with twitter as a backdrop.

But social media as an actual cultural shift? Those people are completely insane.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/friends-netflix-sexist-racist-transphobic-problematic-millenials-watch-a8154626.html

Seriously. They're gone. Cut them out of your life and move on. Let them learn the hard way.

Honestly, kind of agreeing with Ulti here. I haven't unplugged on the level that he has, but I definitely found myself needing to take a step back from social media a couple years ago, and focus my content more on like...science and videogames.
---

When you're bending a woman over and forcefully slamming your penis against her butt, pretty sure that's moving far beyond "bargaining."
---

metroid composite posted...

UltimaterializerX posted...

Metal_DK posted...

Social media turns everything into some massive issue in the centralized internet era. Social media ruins society

You are not wrong. I've been deleting and detaching myself from it entirely, outside of things that are actually normal like enjoying sporting events. That Vikings finish was just better with twitter as a backdrop.

But social media as an actual cultural shift? Those people are completely insane.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/friends-netflix-sexist-racist-transphobic-problematic-millenials-watch-a8154626.html

Seriously. They're gone. Cut them out of your life and move on. Let them learn the hard way.

Honestly, kind of agreeing with Ulti here. I haven't unplugged on the level that he has, but I definitely found myself needing to take a step back from social media a couple years ago, and focus my content more on like...science and videogames.

Good, i hope you keep it going
---

TheRock1525 posted...

Btw:

Sexual assault is an act in which a person sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.

This is sometimes lost on people in these cases.

Coercion here isn't talking somebody into consenting. Coercion here is basically "I won't let you leave until you do this" or "I'll fire you unless you do this" or "I'll tell everybody this big secret unless you do this" or "I'll hurt you unless you do this." It's using leverage or physical violence to force somebody to do something. Like, coercion is basically hand in hand with an actual threat, law-wise. Slightly cutting somebody's face with a knife and threatening to cut their throat is "Coercion."

It's a really big thing, and not what the word normally means.
---

TheRock1525 posted...

When you're bending a woman over and forcefully slamming your penis against her butt, pretty sure that's moving far beyond "bargaining."

well yeah, that's just actual sex stuff. That wasn't in your list of things that you consider coercion, so I wasn't calling it bargaining.

I hadn't see that bit actually... that's the spot where he definitely could have crossed the line, but I'm not sure.

I've been trying to figure out the situation in my mind for like half an hour now. I think there's the possibility that he could be an actual scumbag, but he could also have genuinely gotten the signals mixed up based on her continued participation in the encounter. I don't know.

I'm really hung up on her even still being there at that point. I don't understand what was keeping her there.
---

So if we're all pretty clear that this situation is borderline at best, and there certainly was no crime committed (okay so Rock thinks there was but he thinks existing in the same plane of reality as a woman is the same as assault)...

...then we are able to move to a discussion about what this woman's motivation was. Here we have a situation in which two adults had a misunderstanding, one apologized for it, and they moved on, yet she has decided to take a big shot at his career and reputation as a public figure for...

Well, for what?

Spite? I don't really give a damn if telling her story "helped her heal." or whatever, go see a fucking therapist.

When you really start to analyze it, it's pretty sociopathic. She was watching him win an award and she decided that his happiness made her mad and she had to do something about it, dredging up a bad interaction and dressing it up as sexual assault to take a chunk out of him.

I'm frankly much more disturbed by this than I am at Aziz reading the nonverbal cues of a woman who accepted his tongue between her legs the wrong way.

Because once you accept that one of these women has done this out of spite, you realize that any of them can and it's chilling.
---

I mean I accepted it long ago. Brian Banks, Emma Sulkowicz, UVA. False rape accusations happen.

The problem is now they are going REALLY mainstream and our entire culture is WAY TOO FAR in one direction as far as this "listen and believe" bullshit that if you question anything about any accusation you are a misogy-sexi-buzzword-rapist apologist, etc.

Scary times. I am real glad I tagged out of the whole hookup culture like a year ago.
---

what the fuck is any of that post

like

More importantly, men and children have spoken for years about Hollywood. Not a word about them, because it doesn't line up with the feminist power grab

how is this a complaint? sounds like the me too movement is great for those men and children because now everything is being exposed. They're getting what they want.
---

ExThaNemesis posted...

So if we're all pretty clear that this situation is borderline at best, and there certainly was no crime committed (okay so Rock thinks there was but he thinks existing in the same plane of reality as a woman is the same as assault)...

...then we are able to move to a discussion about what this woman's motivation was. Here we have a situation in which two adults had a misunderstanding, one apologized for it, and they moved on, yet she has decided to take a big shot at his career and reputation as a public figure for...

Well, for what?

Spite? I don't really give a damn if telling her story "helped her heal." or whatever, go see a fucking therapist.

When you really start to analyze it, it's pretty sociopathic. She was watching him win an award and she decided that his happiness made her mad and she had to do something about it, dredging up a bad interaction and dressing it up as sexual assault to take a chunk out of him.

I'm frankly much more disturbed by this than I am at Aziz reading the nonverbal cues of a woman who accepted his tongue between her legs the wrong way.

Because once you accept that one of these women has done this out of spite, you realize that any of them can and it's chilling.

Or you could also analyze it another way. Woman had a really uncomfortable sexual encounter with a guy, one that she felt was inappropriate. Said guy is a rising figure in Hollywood, so she later sees said guy being lauded with praise for his work in a clear shift from how he made HER feel. So she speaks up so people don't think he's just some stand up guy on the basis of him being an award winner.

I mean, let's remove gender from the equation here. Kevin Spacey has won two Oscars for Best Actor. He was awarded and praised before all of Hollywood. Don't you think some of the young guys he assaulted saw that and felt like it was extremely fucked up? That a guy who could sexually abuse them with no consequences, and then could turn around and bask in the adoration of the movie industry? We didn't have the #metoo movement back then, so there wasn't motivation to put themselves out there in the line of fire where they likely wouldn't be believed over an Oscar-winning actor. But it's the same thing here.
---

Inviso posted...

But it's the same thing here.

This is not the same as Kevin Spacey.

Kevin Spacey has multiple accusers of assaulting behavior. He has much more corroboration regarding much more damning actions.

Aziz has a situation that is borderline at best and in my opinion doesn't cross the line into sexual assault. And that assumes everything happened exactly as this woman claims.
---

ClyTheCool posted...

Rock, I think you need to work out some stuff with yourself. Your emotional reaction to sephg was really over the top and strange. And quite frankly, pathetic. You only hurt your own image and whatever cause you are arguing for by behaving that way.

Qft
---

Yes, two humans are not the exact same people, therefore all comparison is impossible. Excellent response.

As for myself, the account of the situation at least presents Aziz as pushy and unwilling to take no for an answer. At the least, calling that out as unacceptable behavior is not a bad thing. I wouldn't go farther than that.
---

ExThaNemesis posted...

Because once you accept that one of these women has done this out of spite, you realize that any of them can and it's chilling.

This is pretty silly. Youre afraid that women can speak up about how an encounter made them feel, and then we as a society can discuss it?

It seems pretty clear to me that both people involved are telling the truth about how they personally perceived the interaction.
---

State health inspectors found 15 violations in the two primary kitchens of Mar a lago, including milk stored at 49 degrees (should be no higher than 41), sushi grade fish that had not been treated for parasites, and cases of hot dogs on the floor of the walk in freezer (should be on a shelf).

Also, they serve fucking hot dogs at a place that boasts a 200k/year membership fee?
---

Maybe Trump has a sushi parasite. That could explain some things
---

Hot dogs are great.
---

someone who is (allegedly) terrified of being poisoned would never come close to eating sushi

also his fear of being poisoned seems more justified if he's eaten anything at mar-a-lago apparently >_>
---

Forceful_Dragon posted...

Inviso posted...

But it's the same thing here.

This is not the same as Kevin Spacey.

Kevin Spacey has multiple accusers of assaulting behavior. He has much more corroboration regarding much more damning actions.

Aziz has a situation that is borderline at best and in my opinion doesn't cross the line into sexual assault. And that assumes everything happened exactly as this woman claims.

My post was not Aziz is just as vile as Kevin Spacey. It was if you feel violated by a famous person, its not necessarily spite that might cause you to speak out when that famous person is lavished with praise. I used Spacey as an example because the victims are male and thus the people Im arguing with are more likely to give a shit.
---

FFDragon posted...

someone who is (allegedly) terrified of being poisoned would never come close to eating sushi

also his fear of being poisoned seems more justified if he's eaten anything at mar-a-lago apparently >_>

The inspection occurred a few days prior to his hosting of the Japanese prime minister back in October.

And I'm not hating on hot dogs. But if we assume you eat every meal every day at the resort and are a member, that's $183/meal. No hot dog should ever be over $15.
---

Here's an actually well-written article about the Aziz situation:

https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/1/16/16894722/aziz-ansari-grace-babe-me-too
---

That is indeed a good article and is along the same lines as what I thought about it. This is not about destroying someone's reputation and calling them a monster. It's about us realizing that sex isn't the end result of tricking or persuading the woman, making the assumption that they want it but won't say so, and instead because both people seek it out actively. That is much healthier and more comfortable, not even just for the woman, but for everyone.
---

https://twitter.com/foxnews/status/952864585907875840

OPINION: Please stop politicizing Martin Luther King Day.

We have reached peak Fox News
---

---

https://twitter.com/LevineJonathan/status/953310521775788032

amazing that he follows through with the motion after he must have realized what was happening, did he hope he'd fool people into not noticing?
---

Here comes bannon

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/953307489180770304

News: Steve Bannon was subpoenaed last week to testify before Mueller's grand jury. "The move marked the first time Mr. Mueller is known to have used a grand jury subpoena to seek information from a member of Mr. Trumps inner circle." @nytmike scoops https://t.co/EqY25n7AL4

---

I wrote my bit about Steve Bannon's Sloppy Year too soon.
---

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2018/01/16/study-42-percent-of-republicans-believe- accurate-but-negative-stories-qualify-as-fake-news/

Excuse me while I go barf

Remove the space though. Had to break it up for character limits
---

are you surprised

"fake news" has basically meant "news I don't like" since trump started using the term
---

The fact that nearly half of all Republicans (instead of a vocal/troll minority) use it that way still grosses me out. The fact that 17% of Democrats apparently do too is also really bad.
---

I just can't comprehend the disconnect involved to rationalize it to yourself

How can you consider something to be accurate and fake at the same time?
---

To be fair, when has fake news ever been used for a positive story?
---

Forceful_Dragon posted...

I just can't comprehend the disconnect involved to rationalize it to yourself

How can you consider something to be accurate and fake at the same time?

It's cognitive dissonance minus the feeling of discomfort that's supposed to come with it
---

feels over reals has been the battlecry of the gop for years now, so this isn't surprising
---

It's also backfiring on them pretty badly. Any sensible group could run with all the good economic indicators to a larger majority in both the House and Senate and yet there seems to be a giant blue wave coming based on "feelz" (push back against racist actions/rhetoric, push back against sexual harassment/assault culture, the Russian investigation, etc.).
---

What I see where I live, atleast, is that even people who accept things as fact will suddenly reject them as soon as Trump says it's fake. I've seen a startling amount of

Me: "You agree that A happened, yes?"
Them: "Yes."
Trump: "A never happened."
Me: "But A happened."
Them: "No it didn't."
---

Trump's physical exam results included a perfect score for cognitive

https://www.axios.com/the-presidents-vital-signs-1516135799-003bc77a-cca9-454c-955f-6e8357628a02.html

Jackson said Trump requested a cognitive exam during the session. Trump scored 30/30 on a test of his cognitive ability "The Montreal Cognitive Assessment" which screened for Alzheimer's and dementia, among other illnesses Jackson said. "I have no concerns about his cognitive ability.

Trump is 6'3" and weighs 239 pounds. Jackson said. He added that he discussed a diet plan with the president that would include a smaller amount of carbohydrates and fats. A reasonable goal is for Trump to lose 1015 pounds in the next year, he said. "The president has acknowledged that he'd be healthier if he lost a few pounds."

The president's blood pressure is 122/74, a normal level, and he has a resting heart rate of 68 beats per minute, Jackson said.

Trump's medications: Crestor, Aspirin, Propecia to prevent male pattern hair loss, a multivitamin.
"His cardiac health is excellent."

How is Trump healthy despite his diet and lack of exercise? "He has incredibly good genes. It's just the way God made him."

---

EndOfDiscOne posted...

Trump is 6'3" and weighs 239 pounds.

So convenient that this puts his BMI at 29.9, just under the 30.0 cutoff for obese.

Also not believable in any way just looking at him I mean my god.
---

MrGreenonion posted...

EndOfDiscOne posted...

Trump is 6'3" and weighs 239 pounds.

So convenient that this puts his BMI at 29.9, just under the 30.0 cutoff for obese.

Also not believable in any way just looking at him I mean my god.

He's also probably not 6'3", given that his drivers license puts him at 6'2" apparently.
---

Fake news!
---

trump definitely ain't 6'3", but whatever. I'm fine believing most of the stuff but boy did that whole press conference with the doctor come across as propaganda.

"good genes!" "he only sleeps 4-5 hours, that's probably why he's successful!"

give me a break
---

"it's just the way god made him" lol
---

I hope we get to see some of this aerobic routine hes supposed to work out with Melania
---