Current Events > Are Men Aware of Sexual Harassment?

(+) Yeah! (+)

(Let's assume neither party in any of these situations is a boss or has any power over the other person).

1 A male coworker catcalling or making unwanted statements about a female colleague's appearance to her as she walks by. Is this sexual harassment?

2 A male coworker giving repeated, unwanted invitations to a female colleague to go out for drinks, dinner, or dates. Is this sexual harassment?

3 Do you feel sexual harassment is a fireable offense?
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That_Happened posted...

(Let's assume neither party in any of these situations is a boss or has any power over the other person).

1 A male coworker catcalling or making unwanted statements about a female colleague's appearance to her as she walks by. Is this sexual harassment?

2 A male coworker giving repeated, unwanted invitations to a female colleague to go out for drinks, dinner, or dates. Is this sexual harassment?

3 Do you feel sexual harassment is a fireable offense?

This op-ed says "no"...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/22/opinions/what-part-of-sexual-harassment-dont-men-understand-drexler/index.html

sexual huh
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Yes, yes, and yes
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The obvious solution is to just ban women from the work force.

/s
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1 Nah, it's just being a douche. Punish them if it happens daily.

2 Nope, just sad.

3 Um, if it's actual sexual harassment, such as ass grabbing, flashing your disgusting crotch etc..
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Tell a woman every day she's pretty, I bet that's sexual harassment.

Make a move and she doesn't like it? Sexual Harassment.

Tell a girl you like her? Sexual harassment.
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I am telling you this me to thing is going to backfire on women in the end.

1: Unless extreme I'd say no.
2:In the work it's inappropriate.
3:If there's evidence yes if it's simply her word against his no.

And this goes for both sexes no double standards.

Forget bitcoins, invest in sex robots. They can't be harassed.... Yet
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1. She's not being harassed sexually, so no.
2. Again, she's being harassed but not sexually. Just a guy being an ass
3. In severe cases most definitely, but not for 1 and 2
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Have none of you ever worked in an office? They pound this stuff into your head
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eston posted...

Have none of you ever worked in an office? They pound this stuff into your head

I did for a few years. Went back to welding, couldn't be happier.
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There was a time when women just knew who to avoid in the hall and it was an inside joke. Now, you can't even flirt with someone in an attempt to begin a relationship without worrying that she'll get triggered.
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Wolf_J_Flywheel posted...

There was a time when women just knew who to avoid in the hall and it was am inside joke. Now, you can't even flirt with someone in an attempt to begin a relationship without worrying that she'll get triggered.

I personally wouldn't date anybody I work with. It's a bad idea and it's almost certain to get messy.
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A paradox: two women get mad as hell when they hear that some of their male coworkers have been informally taking a poll on who they would rather date. Only one of the two is still mad when she discovers furthermore that she came out second best in the poll.

Asherlee10 posted...

Those that say catcalling is not sexual harassment, please provide some details.

Let's define catcalling first. We all think we know what it is, but how would we define it...?

Cocytus posted...

That_Happened posted...

(Let's assume neither party in any of these situations is a boss or has any power over the other person).

1 A male coworker catcalling or making unwanted statements about a female colleague's appearance to her as she walks by. Is this sexual harassment?

2 A male coworker giving repeated, unwanted invitations to a female colleague to go out for drinks, dinner, or dates. Is this sexual harassment?

3 Do you feel sexual harassment is a fireable offense?

This op-ed says "no"...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/22/opinions/what-part-of-sexual-harassment-dont-men-understand-drexler/index.html

The tl;dr for that article is "because sexism". She even makes it a point to bring up Clinton losing to Trump in the election to reinforce her argument that men are sexist. She also only barely mentions the fact that men are the ones who make the initial move for romantic encounters just to dismiss it out of hand.

Articles like this are basically useless. She makes a vague mention about men understanding or not understanding appropriate behaviour, but doesn't explain what that appropriate behaviour is. If men apparently don't understand it, maybe it should be better explained to them.

Also, if she is really trying to suggest that, even in modern society, that men are no longer expected to be the primary initiator of romantic relationships and encounters: I'm pretty sure she's wrong.
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Cocytus posted...

Let's define catcalling first. We all think we know what it is, but how would we define it...?

I gave the definition in the OP. Female coworker walks by, male coworker makes flirtatious or sexual comments about her body and her appearance.
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eston posted...

Have none of you ever worked in an office? They pound this stuff into your head

No. I'd wager the overwhelming majority of people have never worked in an office environment.
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Esrac posted...

The tl;dr for that article is "because sexism". She even makes it a point to bring up Clinton losing to Trump in the election to reinforce her argument that men are sexist. She also only barely mentions the fact that men are the ones who make the initial move for romantic encounters just to dismiss it out of hand.

Articles like this are basically useless. She makes a vague mention about men understanding or not understanding appropriate behaviour, but doesn't explain what that appropriate behaviour is. If men apparently don't understand it, maybe it should be better explained to them.

This is why I didn't post the article itself. The "Hillary Clinton wasn't elected because sexism" angle is mostly bullshit and detracts from the overall point.

I wanted to see how CE felt about a few of the questions in the survey.
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Asherlee10 posted...

Cocytus posted...

A paradox: two women get mad as hell when they hear that some of their male coworkers have been informally taking a poll on who they would rather date. Only one of the two is still mad when she discovers furthermore that she came out second best in the poll.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at here.

No point, just an anecdote I once heard.

1 and 2 can range from minor offenses to sexual harassment. I would advocate a warn first, punish second procedure.
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Asherlee10 posted...

Cocytus posted...

A paradox: two women get mad as hell when they hear that some of their male coworkers have been informally taking a poll on who they would rather date. Only one of the two is still mad when she discovers furthermore that she came out second best in the poll.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at here.

I thinkit's a joke suggesting that in that situation only the woman who was on the losing end of that survey would be upset. The woman voted most attractive wouldn't be upset.
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That_Happened posted...

Cocytus posted...

Let's define catcalling first. We all think we know what it is, but how would we define it...?

I gave the definition in the OP. Female coworker walks by, male coworker makes flirtatious or sexual comments about her body and her appearance.

And there's probably as many women that enjoy it as there are that are offended. I've known women who get mad if they've took the effort to look good on a day and not get "harassed".
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Esrac posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

Cocytus posted...

A paradox: two women get mad as hell when they hear that some of their male coworkers have been informally taking a poll on who they would rather date. Only one of the two is still mad when she discovers furthermore that she came out second best in the poll.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at here.

I thinkit's a joke suggesting that in that situation only the woman who was on the losing end of that survey would be upset. The woman voted most attractive wouldn't be upset.

Yes, sometimes it seems women want it both ways, they want to be attractive and not looked at or thought of romantically, sexually, etc.

Wolf_J_Flywheel posted...

That_Happened posted...

Cocytus posted...

Let's define catcalling first. We all think we know what it is, but how would we define it...?

I gave the definition in the OP. Female coworker walks by, male coworker makes flirtatious or sexual comments about her body and her appearance.

And there's probably as many women that enjoy it as there are that are offended.

Out of curiosity, when construction workers or laborers catcall women on a busy city street, do you think the number of women who enjoy it and the number of women who hate it are about equal?
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That_Happened posted...

Esrac posted...

The tl;dr for that article is "because sexism". She even makes it a point to bring up Clinton losing to Trump in the election to reinforce her argument that men are sexist. She also only barely mentions the fact that men are the ones who make the initial move for romantic encounters just to dismiss it out of hand.

Articles like this are basically useless. She makes a vague mention about men understanding or not understanding appropriate behaviour, but doesn't explain what that appropriate behaviour is. If men apparently don't understand it, maybe it should be better explained to them.

This is why I didn't post the article itself. The "Hillary Clinton wasn't elected because sexism" angle is mostly bullshit and detracts from the overall point.

I wanted to see how CE felt about a few of the questions in the survey.

I would agree with your assessment on the article. When I started reading it, I didn't necessarily agree with he'd points, but she seemed reasonable. Once she brought up the election, I kind of rolled my eyes and started to tune out.
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Cocytus posted...

Esrac posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

Cocytus posted...

A paradox: two women get mad as hell when they hear that some of their male coworkers have been informally taking a poll on who they would rather date. Only one of the two is still mad when she discovers furthermore that she came out second best in the poll.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at here.

I thinkit's a joke suggesting that in that situation only the woman who was on the losing end of that survey would be upset. The woman voted most attractive wouldn't be upset.

Yes, sometimes it seems women want it both ways, they want to be attractive and not looked at or thought of romantically, sexually, etc.

It's called attention whoring.
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Flasbangs posted...

1 Nah, it's just being a douche. Punish them if it happens daily.

2 Nope, just sad.

3 Um, if it's actual sexual harassment, such as ass grabbing, flashing your disgusting crotch etc..

Someone has never had sexual harassment training. As all of those examples are exactly what they use to define workplace sexual harassment.
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Cocytus posted...

Esrac posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

Cocytus posted...

A paradox: two women get mad as hell when they hear that some of their male coworkers have been informally taking a poll on who they would rather date. Only one of the two is still mad when she discovers furthermore that she came out second best in the poll.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at here.

I thinkit's a joke suggesting that in that situation only the woman who was on the losing end of that survey would be upset. The woman voted most attractive wouldn't be upset.

Yes, sometimes it seems women want it both ways, they want to be attractive and not looked at or thought of romantically, sexually, etc.

I think the counterargument to that would be that they don't typically want to be approached or looked at romantically or sexually at work.

And that might be true often, but it is also true that affairs, relationships, and other encounters begin between coworkers. So, there obviously are women who are open to sleeping with or dating their male coworkers.
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Howl posted...

Flasbangs posted...

1 Nah, it's just being a douche. Punish them if it happens daily.

2 Nope, just sad.

3 Um, if it's actual sexual harassment, such as ass grabbing, flashing your disgusting crotch etc..

Someone has never had sexual harassment training. As all of those examples are exactly what they use to define workplace sexual harassment.

Maybe that's just an American thing..
I just wanted out of office work because it's boring as hell.
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Cocytus posted...

This op-ed says "no"...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/22/opinions/what-part-of-sexual-harassment-dont-men-understand-drexler/index.html

We've only got to look at the defeat of a highly qualified, highly prepared, definitely female presidential candidate by a less qualified male opponent (himself, let's not forget, accused of sexual assault by multiple women; he denies it) as proof that sexism lives on. That he largely based his campaign on bluster and bullying -- and was elected by 52% of men and 41% of women -- only strengthens the point.

Good fucking grief
Of COURSE they'd put this in there
as if that was the REAL reason (it was SEXISM that lost Hillary the vote guys)
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Flasbangs posted...

Howl posted...

Flasbangs posted...

1 Nah, it's just being a douche. Punish them if it happens daily.

2 Nope, just sad.

3 Um, if it's actual sexual harassment, such as ass grabbing, flashing your disgusting crotch etc..

Someone has never had sexual harassment training. As all of those examples are exactly what they use to define workplace sexual harassment.

Maybe that's just an American thing..
I just wanted out of office work because it's boring as hell.

One thing that is important to note is that for any of those actions to be considered actionable, they have to be considered as unwanted. Also they generally must be reported, unless it is a particularly heinous incident to be fireable offenses.
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In an office environment, whether or not something is sexual harassment is not dependent on someone being mad. They are pretty specific about what you can and can't do, and just because the woman you were catcalling happens to enjoy the attention does not mean that HR won't get on your ass for it
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People hear "sexual" harassment and think it has to be overtly sexual for anything to happen
and to them, constantly asking someone out (who has said to stop) is not seen as overtly sexual, so they don't feel the moral pressure to stop

Also people who are tone-deaf and can't read a conversation to save their lives. Continuing to hit on someone who is clearly busy or like not interested... you look dumb and it seems pathetic.
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eston posted...

In an office environment, whether or not something is sexual harassment is not dependent on someone being mad.

This is 100% false. The laws about sexual harassment mention specifically that the attention has to be considered as unwanted to be considered sexual harassment.

Edit: you can still get in trouble as you said over it from HR because whether or not the person you are doing that to can consider it fine, it still be considered offensive to other co-workers and therefore falls under hostile work environment.
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einegutePerson posted...

and to them, constantly asking someone out (who has said to stop) is not seen as overtly sexual, so they don't feel the moral pressure to stop

Also people who are tone-deaf and can't read a conversation to save their lives. Continuing to hit on someone who is clearly busy or like not interested... you look dumb and it seems pathetic.

Yeah this part was pretty surprising, to me. What kind of guy thinks repeatedly asking out a girl who always says "no" to you is a good idea?
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Howl posted...

eston posted...

In an office environment, whether or not something is sexual harassment is not dependent on someone being mad.

This is 100% false. The laws about sexual harassment mention specifically that the attention has to be considered as unwanted to be considered sexual harassment.

Edit: you can still get in trouble as you said over it from HR because whether or not the person you are doing that to can consider it fine, it still be considered offensive to other co-workers and therefore falls under hostile work environment.

I don't think he's referring to laws, so much as company policy.
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That_Happened posted...

einegutePerson posted...

and to them, constantly asking someone out (who has said to stop) is not seen as overtly sexual, so they don't feel the moral pressure to stop

Also people who are tone-deaf and can't read a conversation to save their lives. Continuing to hit on someone who is clearly busy or like not interested... you look dumb and it seems pathetic.

Yeah this part was pretty surprising, to me. What kind of guy thinks repeatedly asking out a girl who always says "no" to you is a good idea?

Probably the guys that hear anecdotes from women who said they kept refusing a guy, but he kept asking until she eventually said "yes" and then she had a wonderful time/fell in love/got married/etc. Those kinds of stories are out there and they suggest sometimes you have to wear them down with a little persistence to show her you really want her.

Probably not super helpful in most situations.
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That_Happened posted...

einegutePerson posted...

and to them, constantly asking someone out (who has said to stop) is not seen as overtly sexual, so they don't feel the moral pressure to stop

Also people who are tone-deaf and can't read a conversation to save their lives. Continuing to hit on someone who is clearly busy or like not interested... you look dumb and it seems pathetic.

Yeah this part was pretty surprising, to me. What kind of guy thinks repeatedly asking out a girl who always says "no" to you is a good idea?

I worked for a school district once where they actually quantified the number of times someone could ask someone out on a date. Two times. Two rejections and you could ask no more. That was the policy at least. Some reason it made a lot of guys laugh.

Esrac posted...

That_Happened posted...

einegutePerson posted...

and to them, constantly asking someone out (who has said to stop) is not seen as overtly sexual, so they don't feel the moral pressure to stop

Also people who are tone-deaf and can't read a conversation to save their lives. Continuing to hit on someone who is clearly busy or like not interested... you look dumb and it seems pathetic.

Yeah this part was pretty surprising, to me. What kind of guy thinks repeatedly asking out a girl who always says "no" to you is a good idea?

Probably the guys that hear anecdotes from women who said they kept refusing a guy, but he kept asking until she eventually said "yes" and then she had a wonderful time/fell in love/got married/etc. Those kinds of stories are out there and they suggest sometimes you have to wear them down with a little persistence to show her you really want her.

Probably not super helpful in most situations.

And I say to these people
If you can't finesse her number AT WORK so you can talk OUTSIDE OF WORK you got no chance fam
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Esrac posted...

I don't think he's referring to laws, so much as company policy.

Well the laws about sexual harassment are literally what define what sexual harassment is legally so that's extremely relevant.

They wrote that that way specifically because what one person considers acceptable may not be to another person.

For example imagine that you are dating a co-worker and give her a hug before you go to your separate work stations. To your GF this is not considered as unwanted and therefore not sexual harassment.

But the imagine doing that exact same thing to a woman on her first day, that may make her extremely uncomfortable and feel unwanted in that workplace and would therefore be sexual harassment.
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Cocytus posted...

Yes, sometimes it seems women want it both ways, they want to be attractive and not looked at or thought of romantically, sexually, etc.

Exactly. They want the best of both worlds. They want it easy. Efforts against sexual harassment are not even focused anymore. Some of it is about making life more convenient for a woman instead of safe. There are those who believe looking at women should be punishable. Literally looking. Not glaring, not stalking, looking. As if men are expected to be peasants deemed unworthy to glance upon them. In a culture where women choose it's perfect. No need to reject the undesirables so they smoothly get what they want with less work. It's a form of oppressive indoctrination for selfish reasons similar to that abusive dictators.

Howl posted...

eston posted...

In an office environment, whether or not something is sexual harassment is not dependent on someone being mad.

This is 100% false. The laws about sexual harassment mention specifically that the attention has to be considered as unwanted to be considered sexual harassment.

Perhaps I wasn't clear about it, but I'm not referring to the law I'm referring to employment policy. These are two very different things, and employment policy tends to be much more strict in what is considered sexual harassment.
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BlkPopeIseem posted...

There are those who believe looking at women should be punishable. Literally looking. Not glaring, not stalking, looking. As if men are expected to be peasants deemed unworthy to glance upon them. In a culture where women choose it's perfect. No need to reject the undesirables so they smoothly get what they want with less work. It's a form of oppressive indoctrination for selfish reasons similar to that abusive dictators.

I wonder how white men would be judged if we took only the most extreme statements said by them and tried to judge an entire group of people based solely on these outrageous notions.
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