Board 8 > Why is ok to defend transgender but not ok to defend transrace?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yeah fifty years seems like a reasonable over/under to me. Thing you've gotta realize from a historical perspective is that the window for this to even be a thing hasn't been open very long, as the world simply wasn't all that connected until relatively recently on a historic scale-- like people may have had this feeling in the past but it would've been hard to put your finger on just what the issue is for a ton of people because there just wasn't enough readily accessible knowledge out there of other races to really quantify what the feeling was very well.

Then on top of that, any data we attempt to collect on genetic patterns or whatever would be pretty muddled by people doing it entirely for social reasons as well. And that's not going to go away until we have something close to racial equality in a lot of places-- now while I'm not going to say that's the case now it's closer than it's ever been.

So I mean, not having experienced many cases of this, and not being able to find any patterns you can identify genetically in people experiencing this, it shouldn't really be unexpected at the moment. Validation isn't really a big concern of mine, since I'm of the mind that yeah people can do whatever they want to their own bodies if it makes themselves feel better, but I do think there are reasons why you shouldn't immediately discard it as legitimate even if validation is a concern of yours.
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SmartMuffin posted...

Official predix: Within five years, all of these "transrace is ridiculous and not a real thing" people will be calling anyone who doesn't support transrace an irredeemable bigot.

Agree.
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Gatarix posted...

Solioxrz362 posted...

See, trying to identify as a different race in that sense becomes stereotypical and borderline offensive. If you are identifying as a different "race" other than what race you were born for any reason other than you don't like the color of your skin, it's probably for a slightly offensive reason. He is saying "I'm going to act white" more than he's really saying "I'm white now". It's based on social construct and stereotype.

Just because it's based on social construct doesn't mean it's a bad thing, or an offensive thing.

I've never actually heard of "transrace" as a legit thing, but I think it's plausible. Imagine a white kid adopted by Korean parents living in Korea (you can substitute any races/nationalities you prefer). The kid grows up believing, these are my people, this is my culture, my skin color does not reflect who I really am inside. He really is Korean in all senses but biology, and if he wants to be acknowledged as Korean then I don't see the problem.

So, yeah, it is rooted in social constructs (everyone can choose how they want to act, and it shouldn't be constrained by race), but I also prefer not to overthink things. If he says "Please, think of me as Korean" then I'm willing to roll with it, same as I would for a transgender person.

You literally just described what transracial actually means
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SmartMuffin posted...

Official predix: Within five years, all of these "transrace is ridiculous and not a real thing" people will be calling anyone who doesn't support transrace an irredeemable bigot.

I would say within -1 days because Kyle Bowen is already there
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pxlated posted...

You literally just described what transracial actually means

Oh, okay. But I would extend the same kind of consideration to, say, a white kid with white parents who emigrated to Korea and raised him there. Or a white guy who moved to Korea in his 20s, lived there for a decade, steeped himself in the culture, and now identifies with the people there much more strongly than his native country of Canada. I don't know if you'd consider that kind of thing to be "legitimate," but I'd respect it.
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SmartMuffin posted...

Official predix: Within five years, all of these "transrace is ridiculous and not a real thing" people will be calling anyone who doesn't support transrace an irredeemable bigot.

official predix: more like dumbmuffin
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Gatarix posted...

pxlated posted...

You literally just described what transracial actually means

Oh, okay. But I would extend the same kind of consideration to, say, a white kid with white parents who emigrated to Korea and raised him there. Or a white guy who moved to Korea in his 20s, lived there for a decade, steeped himself in the culture, and now identifies with the people there much more strongly than his native country of Canada. I don't know if you'd consider that kind of thing to be "legitimate," but I'd respect it.

Ehhhh doesn't sound like you're talking about race anymore but instead nationality. Like black people and white people in American are unquestionably "Americans", but the experiences of both will not be the same.

Same goes for a white guy in Japan that will not be treated the same as a Japanese person in Japan, even if they were born and raised there. Hell that even goes the same for American/Hawaiian Japanese, or Brazilian Nikkeijin who have historically been "othered" within the US/Brazil as "Japanese" people but then move to Japan and are "othered" as being American or Brazilian rather than Japanese.
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Solioxrz362 posted...

CherryCokes posted...

Okay, so, take this picture.

He is very clearly not white. His skin is black. Identifying as white is dumb here because he just isn't, and it doesn't really mean anything. Does that mean he's not the best with dealing with spices? Does that mean he no longer likes rap music as a black man and instead is going to listen to white people music? Does that mean he's going to oppress minorities? Is this the "white" of today or the "white" of the 1850s? Like, what exactly does he even mean by "I'm white now"?

See, trying to identify as a different race in that sense becomes stereotypical and borderline offensive. If you are identifying as a different "race" other than what race you were born for any reason other than you don't like the color of your skin, it's probably for a slightly offensive reason. He is saying "I'm going to act white" more than he's really saying "I'm white now". It's based on social construct and stereotype. And, even if it was because you wanted to be a different color, that wouldn't really change your heritage, which is another part of race.

That's why I don't think there's any real legitimacy to transracial. I believe transgender has something much more valid you can point to in order to explain it, and I would think it has something to do with biology, but to be honest, I don't know for sure. Either way, it still makes way more sense to me than transracial.

How is that any different from doing stereotypical Men and Women things for a trans person?
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CelesMyUserName posted...

Gatarix posted...

pxlated posted...

You literally just described what transracial actually means

Oh, okay. But I would extend the same kind of consideration to, say, a white kid with white parents who emigrated to Korea and raised him there. Or a white guy who moved to Korea in his 20s, lived there for a decade, steeped himself in the culture, and now identifies with the people there much more strongly than his native country of Canada. I don't know if you'd consider that kind of thing to be "legitimate," but I'd respect it.

Ehhhh doesn't sound like you're talking about race anymore but instead nationality. Like black people and white people in American are unquestionably "Americans", but the experiences of both will not be the same.

I don't think nationality factors into it. Like if Canadian guy keeps his Canadian citizenship for whatever reason, it shouldn't influence how anyone views him except for the guys shuffling paper in the passport office.

It's true I'm talking more about culture than about strictly race...but the two are pretty intertwined, as you pointed out:

Same goes for a white guy in Japan that will not be treated the same as a Japanese person in Japan, even if they were born and raised there. Hell that even goes the same for American/Hawaiian Japanese, or Brazilian Nikkeijin who have historically been "othered" within the US/Brazil as "Japanese" people but then move to Japan and are "othered" as being American or Brazilian rather than Japanese.

Like, that's kinda the point: they don't want to be "othered," they want to be treated as [whatever they want to be treated as].
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On that end yeah it's more in line with the actual meaning of transracial and it's much easier to sympathize with that case, but it also underlines the social construct of the issue. It's not how the individual biologically feels but how society views them. At least as someone who honestly isn't even sure of their own gender, transgender individuals aren't defining themselves based on others but on how they feel about their own self.

In a world of ideals, I don't believe changing your appearance to match how you feel about yourself would be a big deal even in regards to race. But that's an ideal that ignores the baggage that is just so intertwined with race in reality. Your race is linked to your upbringing, you can't just get a surgery and change the experiences you've developed under. Another matter it gets dicey in, and I only mention this is an easily understandable example, is matters like white supremacy. Changing your race to fit in with your surrounding neighbors surrenders to them that an "American" should not look Japanese. A Japanese person should not look Brazilian, and consequently that races should not be mixed. I'm not even kidding that literally last Friday I was on the bus in Toronto with some loudmouthed drunk white guy ranting something exactly like that, literally "A Canadian doesn't have chink eyes" over the phone. This kind of issue has been touchy among black communities for a long time in ways other races don't and is why there's often been debate about beauty products for a making white complexion or celebrities accused of bleaching their skin, and it's understandable why it hurts the communities as it does, as if they should be expected as well to change their skin to belong in America.

Now you can say "shouldn't we be striving to reach ideals?" and sure, but a significantly greater ideal would simply be for society to stop "othering" people who look different to begin with, and this actually happens in more diverse communities and just over time of integration - like when you see a black person in the US you don't assume that they're from Africa.
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Up
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metaIslug posted...

this is a lot of discussion for something so dumb

that should be this board's slogan
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The only thing dumb is calling discussion dumb.

Everything should be dissected is my motto
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CelesMyUserName posted...

On that end yeah it's more in line with the actual meaning of transracial and it's much easier to sympathize with that case, but it also underlines the social construct of the issue. It's not how the individual biologically feels but how society views them. At least as someone who honestly isn't even sure of their own gender, transgender individuals aren't defining themselves based on others but on how they feel about their own self.

In a world of ideals, I don't believe changing your appearance to match how you feel about yourself would be a big deal even in regards to race. But that's an ideal that ignores the baggage that is just so intertwined with race in reality. Your race is linked to your upbringing, you can't just get a surgery and change the experiences you've developed under. Another matter it gets dicey in, and I only mention this is an easily understandable example, is matters like white supremacy. Changing your race to fit in with your surrounding neighbors surrenders to them that an "American" should not look Japanese. A Japanese person should not look Brazilian, and consequently that races should not be mixed. I'm not even kidding that literally last Friday I was on the bus in Toronto with some loudmouthed drunk white guy ranting something exactly like that, literally "A Canadian doesn't have ***** eyes" over the phone. This kind of issue has been touchy among black communities for a long time in ways other races don't and is why there's often been debate about beauty products for a making white complexion or celebrities accused of bleaching their skin, and it's understandable why it hurts the communities as it does, as if they should be expected as well to change their skin to belong in America.

Now you can say "shouldn't we be striving to reach ideals?" and sure, but a significantly greater ideal would simply be for society to stop "othering" people who look different to begin with, and this actually happens in more diverse communities and just over time of integration - like when you see a black person in the US you don't assume that they're from Africa.

Or how about we accept people as they are. That's the best ideal. Japan is so amazing because the Japanese are the way they are, like the way they are, and do not want to change. The West is in ruins because of the change forced upon it in the last 50+ years.
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Vlado posted...

Japan is so amazing because the Japanese are the way they are, like the way they are, and do not want to change.

yeah, japanese people never dye their hair blond.
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WTF is your point? People throughout the world dye their hair.
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Vlado posted...

Or how about we accept people as they are.

You know what's a good way to do that? Letting children watch Steven Universe uncensored so they can understand what good, normal people lesbians are. The younger a kid is learning this, the more accepting they'll be of them.
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I am talking about nations, not sexual minorities.
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Vlado posted...

WTF is your point? People throughout the world dye their hair.

you're arguing "the japanese like the way they are and do not want to change." the fact that some of them they dye their hair shows that they don't like at least one aspect of themselves, namely their hair color.

don't pretend you don't get what i'm talking about. even back in like '04 you were arguing that beyonc dying her hair blond was stupid because "she shouldn't try to be something she's not." now you're all "WTF IS YOUR POINT"? give me a break.
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Vlado posted...

I am talking about nations, not sexual minorities.

You're talking about people.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

you're arguing "the japanese like the way they are and do not want to change." the fact that some of them they dye their hair shows that they don't like at least one aspect of themselves, namely their hair color.

lmao, imagine actually believing that. Because nobody every dyed their hair on a whim or to look "cool," it's because they don't like their real hair.

Why do I waste time like this... :(
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Vlado posted...

Because nobody every dyed their hair on a whim or to look "cool," it's because they don't like their real hair.

So Japanese people only dye their hair to look cool and can't possibly do it because they hate their natural hair color.

Because psst: 90% of people who routinely dye their hair is because they hate their natural hair color.
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Vlado posted...

Because nobody every dyed their hair on a whim or to look "cool," it's because they don't like their real hair.

not saying nobody dyes their hair on a whim, but i'm pretty sure there are people out their who dye their hair because they don't like the color of their real hair.
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That's nonsense. Japanese teens sometimes dye their hair to look cool. Guess how many still do it after they turn 20. They want to stand out at a certain point in their lives. They don't hate their hair colour.

But why do I even bother. Leftists will believe any made-up nonsense if it aligns with their beliefs.
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Vlado posted...

That's nonsense. Japanese teens sometimes dye their hair to look cool. Guess how many still do it after they turn 20. They want to stand out at a certain point in their lives. They don't hate their hair colour.

even assuming you're right, why is this suddenly exclusively about "japanese teens"? i'm talking about japanese people in general.

my grandma has been dyeing her hair as long as i can remember. she certainly doesn't do it "to look cool" and she was definitely older than 20 when i was born. i guess she doesn't exist in your little world, as nobody could possibly dye their hair because they dislike their natural hair color.
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Oh wow, old people wanting to look younger is supposed to score liberal points now... rofl
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also, do you really need to add a line of "OH WOE IS ME WHY DO I EVEN BOTHER" bullshit to every one of your posts? either stop arguing with me if it's such a terrible experience or stop whining.
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Sometimes, I really can't help myself. It's a flaw I must somehow address... Because let's be honest, this conversation is a dead-end from the get-go.
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Vlado posted...

Oh wow, old people wanting to look younger is supposed to score liberal points now... rofl

what the actual fuck is this?

vlado: nobody dyes their hair because they dislike their natural hair color.
me: no, some people do dye their because they dislike their natural hair color.
vlado: OH YOU'RE TOTALLY SCORING LIBERAL POINTS NOW ROFL

yeah, if by "scoring liberal points" you mean "proving that you're hilariously wrong" i guess you're right.

(also, your post doesn't even make sense as my grandma didn't even have natural gray hair when i was born. she just never liked her natural hair color.)
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Vlado posted...

Sometimes, I really can't help myself. It's a flaw I must somehow address... Because let's be honest, this conversation is a dead-end from the get-go.

I mean, finally you realize it.
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CelesMyUserName posted...

Another matter it gets dicey in, and I only mention this is an easily understandable example, is matters like white supremacy. Changing your race to fit in with your surrounding neighbors surrenders to them that an "American" should not look Japanese. A Japanese person should not look Brazilian, and consequently that races should not be mixed.

I agree with this, but in theory I feel like the same argument could be applied to transgender people -- e.g., a woman changing to a man because she feels it'll benefit her in a male-dominated field such as politics or software development. Now, in practice, I don't know if anyone does this. Maybe, maybe not. But the point is, the possibility that people may "abuse the system" for personal advancement (whether it's social or career advancement) shouldn't prevent others from doing it when they feel it genuinely reflects their identity.

Now you can say "shouldn't we be striving to reach ideals?" and sure, but a significantly greater ideal would simply be for society to stop "othering" people who look different to begin with, and this actually happens in more diverse communities and just over time of integration - like when you see a black person in the US you don't assume that they're from Africa.

Agreed re: ideals (though tbqh blacks in the USA are still othered, even if nobody assumes they're from Africa)
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also I don't see what's wrong with disliking your natural hair color

is the argument that disliking your natural hair color makes you a CLOSET RACIST or something
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Gatarix posted...

also I don't see what's wrong with disliking your natural hair color

nothing. that wasn't what the argument was about.
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Vlado posted...

Guess how many still do it after they turn 20.

A lot. Especially since when they're older they have no parental influence to stop them and their own income base to pay for it.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

Vlado posted...

Japan is so amazing because the Japanese are the way they are, like the way they are, and do not want to change.

yeah, japanese people never dye their hair blond.

Yeah as a Japanese I can tell you that Vlado has no idea what he's talking about
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Vlado posted...

Japan is so amazing because the Japanese are the way they are, like the way they are, and do not want to change.

Japanese people are completely open to change. They are open to gay marriage and immigration. They have none of the bigotry that you value so dearly.

Also, Japan IS in ruins because they copied western financial policies and it's causing much of the same problems there.
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Vlado posted...

Japanese teens sometimes dye their hair to look cool.

Teens can't die their hair because schools require dark brown hair

Anime isn't real

You know absolutely nothing about Japanese culture but pretend to adore it from such a far away distance, like the creepy stalker following the girl who smiled at him at the grocery store once 6 months ago
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foolm0r0n posted...

Anime isn't real

wait, a japanese high school class doesn't consist of 1 guy and 17 super hot girls in mini skirts drooling over him? phew, i thought i had been missing out.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

foolm0r0n posted...

Anime isn't real

wait, a japanese high school class doesn't consist of 1 guy and 17 super hot girls in mini skirts drooling over him? phew, i thought i had been missing out.

Yeah, real life is 23 girls.
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Real life is also three guys, there's the hot main guy and his two dorky friends.
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wow japanese culture is so fascinating

I wonder how they zone their districts
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SantaRPidgey posted...

wow japanese culture is so fascinating

I wonder how they zone their districts

The way they do it is really awesome actually
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Though I've never identified as such, I have been called transrace several times even though I now have DNA evidence that proves I was right all along.

Ask me anything.
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which race are you trans for
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White. Which is funny because Ancestry DNA says I'm 49% European but people have a hard time accepting that when I say that.
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What do people think you are?
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Vlado posted...

Or how about we accept people as they are. That's the best ideal. Japan is so amazing because the Japanese are the way they are, like the way they are, and do not want to change. The West is in ruins because of the change forced upon it in the last 50+ years.

Japan is having a catastrophic cultural crisis right now and it's causing the population to drop, but ok.
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redrocket_pub posted...

What do people think you are?

Hispanic, which isn't even a race. So when I say I'm white, people think or say that I'm being transracial especially when I say I have no interest in Hispanic and especially Mexican culture or speaking Spanish.
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Gatarix posted...

Solioxrz362 posted...

See, trying to identify as a different race in that sense becomes stereotypical and borderline offensive. If you are identifying as a different "race" other than what race you were born for any reason other than you don't like the color of your skin, it's probably for a slightly offensive reason. He is saying "I'm going to act white" more than he's really saying "I'm white now". It's based on social construct and stereotype.

Just because it's based on social construct doesn't mean it's a bad thing, or an offensive thing.

I've never actually heard of "transrace" as a legit thing, but I think it's plausible. Imagine a white kid adopted by Korean parents living in Korea (you can substitute any races/nationalities you prefer). The kid grows up believing, these are my people, this is my culture, my skin color does not reflect who I really am inside. He really is Korean in all senses but biology, and if he wants to be acknowledged as Korean then I don't see the problem.

So, yeah, it is rooted in social constructs (everyone can choose how they want to act, and it shouldn't be constrained by race), but I also prefer not to overthink things. If he says "Please, think of me as Korean" then I'm willing to roll with it, same as I would for a transgender person.

I don't think that really counts as transracial. That's more like he's literally raised as a Korean, his citizenship would probably lie with Korea. Also, don't mistake what I'm saying for skin color matters most here. I do see this as a more complex situation than just what color are you.

When I think of a case of someone claiming to be transracial, I think of a person who grew up in America as a white person (because, let's say his skin is white and his parents are white) saying at the age of 18 "I want to be black now" because his three best friends are black and he likes their families and the music they listen to and their fashion sense.

In that situation, it's cool for that person to adopt the culture of his black friends, but it's not realistic for him to say "I want to identify as a black person now." There's a lot of good reasons, the first being that not all black people are the same so not even all black people fall under that culture.

So a white kid being raised from the time he was young in Korea under Korean parents... that just sounds more like his biology says he's white, but his culture is Korean AND his country of origin is Korea AND his family (not biological, but his family that he knows) is Korean. And he also didn't just switch it in the middle of being or starting to be an adult, your case sounds like he'd always been Korean. He could really call himself white or Korean or both, but Korean sounds the most true.

Now, if he started living in Mexico in his 20s and decided he wanted to become "transracial" and be a Mexican instead, I don't think he could really do that. Even if he gained Mexican citizenship alongside his Korean citizenship, that doesn't change much. He'd still be Korean. At least that's how I see it. Again, adopting some of the culture is really something awesome and it's great to find things in different cultures and different groups of people that you enjoy, but you're not a different race just because you are in your 20s and you decided you identify as Mexican now.

EDIT: Upon further thought, I think there's a bit to clarify on that last example. So say the guy who was born white, raised in Korea, and moved to Mexico to live for the rest of his life tells someone when he's old "I suppose I'm Korean, but I've lived here so long I'm really a Mexican too." That seems fair. I think that's identifying with two races though and not being "transracial."
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