Poll of the Day > The wizards in LOTR are kind of embarrassing (spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

The first thing that makes me say this is Gandalf not realizing that Bilbo's ring might be crazy important despite the rings of power playing a huge part of the history of their world, and by that point it is explicitly stated that "The Necromancer"(Sauron) has returned. It took him years and years before he did anything at all about that situation. I mean he flat out screwed the pooch in every way possible.

Then later Saruman cuts down a big chunk of that forest for his army and siege weapons, but he was the white wizard and known for being super wise so he had to know the ents were there and that they could wreck his shit. Like he had no contingency plan against the ents at all.

What a couple of idiots
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Bookwise, did they (except for Saruman) even realized the necromancer was Sauron? I thought the reason Gandalf was in major doubt was because he and everyone else really thought the One Ring was destroyed long ago, hence his extensive trip to Gondor just to research the fate of Isildur. It has been some years since I last read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings so might need a refresher.

Though on another note, I don't think these Maiar had any real power. I recall they weren't really suppose to do anything except in the most dire of situations and at most simply inspire the races of Middle-Earth. Of course only Gandalf kept to his duties while the other four slacked off or were corrupted. Driving out the necromancer was the last time they all got together and in Saruman's case, only did it so to stall Sauron.
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All the supposedly powerful characters in lotr are extremely underwhelming.
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it took gandalf like how long to kill a balrog?

meanwhile i killed one in like 2 minutes in shadow of war
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Mead posted...

he had to know the ents were there and that they could wreck his shit.

IIRC it was actually the Huorns that were able to basically erase Saruman's army, otherwise the Ents wouldn't have been able to just march in to Isengard and flood it.
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so other living trees had to come and fuck shit up before the bigger living trees could come fuck shit up?
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"YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!"

Mead posted...

The first thing that makes me say this is Gandalf not realizing that Bilbo's ring might be crazy important despite the rings of power playing a huge part of the history of their world

The appendix to RotK and/or the part of the Silmarillion that talks about the Third Age explicitly says that Gandalf was suspicious about Bilbo's ring almost immediately, but he wasn't sure if it was one of the Rings (ie, there are magical rings in the world other than just the 20 that Sauron and Celebrimbor forged), let along THE Ring. But those suspicions are what prompted him to go research the ring in Gondor's archives in the first place, which in turn is why he showed up to warn Frodo about it.

And part of the problem is that Saruman kept repeatedly telling the White Council that he was absolutely sure that the One Ring had washed out to sea and Sauron would never, ever be able to find it (which was the blatant lie he was telling them so they'd stop looking while he kept looking for it himself), which sort of made Gandalf more confused about precisely which ring Bilbo had found.

It wasn't so much that he didn't realize Bilbo's ring might be trouble, as much as the problem seemed to be that there were always more important things going on that needed to be dealt with, and the ring didn't seem to be doing much to Bilbo in a negative sense, so he felt like he could put it off and deal with it later. Especially since Gandalf always seems to have a bit of fatalism to his personality.



Mead posted...

Then later Saruman cuts down a big chunk of that forest for his army and siege weapons, but he was the white wizard and known for being super wise so he had to know the ents were there and that they could wreck his shit. Like he had no contingency plan against the ents at all.

That's more a case of the arrogance and ego of the Master Wizard not believing the Ents could possibly be a threat to Isengard, and even if they could, assuming they could never be roused into direct action anyway. That's villain hubris, not wizard ineptitude.

It's also part and parcel with the monomania that was turning him from a capable wizard into an obsessed power-mad lunatic (which may have been at least partly influenced by multiple Palantir contacts with Sauron himself, which canonically subverted Saruman's will to at least some extent). As events progressed, Saruman starts developing tunnel vision, to the point where the only thing that really matters is the Ring, and everything else is mere distraction.

Even the gods can make mistakes or misinterpret things in Tolkien's world - the minor angels (which is what the wizards basically are) certainly aren't immune to either foolishness or corruption.



Mead posted...

What a couple of idiots

You're forgetting the hippy who threw away all of his responsibility to go hang out in the woods and the two wizards who traveled east into Asia and were apparently murdered at some point.

At no point were the wizards ever supposed to be infallible or all-knowing. And as Gandalf points out at one point, even the Valar can't see all ends.


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helIy posted...

it took gandalf like how long to kill a balrog?

meanwhile i killed one in like 2 minutes in shadow of war

You also start dropping dead 5 seconds after someone takes your ring or magic ghost away from you, so you're not really as tough as you think you are.

But it's also worth keeping in mind that the wizards were deliberately hamstrung from the beginning, because they weren't supposed to fight at all, only advise and inspire. Gandalf the Wizard is a much different (and much weaker) person than Olorin the Maia. It's even worth noting that there's a difference in power between Gandalf the Grey (who was sent as an advisor) and Gandalf the White (who basically had some of his limitations removed so he could be more proactive in the battles that were coming, as well as become strong enough to directly oppose Saruman, who was no longer following the rules).


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Proof why Radaghast is the best.

helIy posted...

it took gandalf like how long to kill a balrog?

meanwhile i killed one in like 2 minutes in shadow of war

Any video game that demands over a month of continuous to kill one boss isn't a video game that's going to do very well. Especially not when it's a video game that's predicated on fanservice power fantasies.
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Sahuagin posted...

IIRC it was actually the Huorns that were able to basically erase Saruman's army, otherwise the Ents wouldn't have been able to just march in to Isengard and flood it.

If I recalled correctly, it was just the retreating Orcs that the Huorns wiped out, right? The extended edition seemed to included that.

helIy posted...

so other living trees had to come and fuck shit up before the bigger living trees could come fuck shit up?

The Ents were/are rather passive whereas the Huorns themselves were full of malice against anything that wasn't a tree.
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Seriously though, the wizards are pussies.

They barely even use magic. Like wtf. What kind of wizard never uses magic?
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helIy posted...

so other living trees had to come and fuck shit up before the bigger living trees could come fuck shit up?

Sort of, but what I meant was that while Ents were maybe loosely known about, I don't think anyone knew about the Huorns. The point of them is sort of that you can barely tell the difference between them and regular trees, except they somehow move around at night when you can't see them.

the huorns wiped out the orc army, whereas I don't recall the Ents actually fighting at all, but they were able to demolish the magical rock walls of Isengard and Orthanc, and divert the river to flood the whole place including the tower.
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Smarkil posted...

Seriously though, the wizards are p******.

They barely even use magic. Like wtf. What kind of wizard never uses magic?

To be fair, it was the people of Middle-Earth that called them wizards. These Maiars are more than any simple mortal being but definitely not as magical as what people had expected.
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Well the part with the Ents is probably meant to mirror the whole thing with the Hobbits. Basically "These dudes have literally never done anything in history, they're obviously a bunch of fucks who don't matter so I'm going to ignore them and then suffer for my arrogance".

Weren't like the wizards all absurdly powerful but the powers that be specifically hindered their power while one this plane and made it all but law that what power they did have they were only to use in the most extreme circumstance? Like pretty certain they were more less the equivalent to angels.
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Hirokey123 posted...

Weren't like the wizards all absurdly powerful but the powers that be specifically hindered their power while one this plane and made it all but law that what power they did have they were only to use in the most extreme circumstance? Like pretty certain they were more less the equivalent to angels.

Something like that
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Hirokey123 posted...

Weren't like the wizards all absurdly powerful but the powers that be specifically hindered their power while one this plane and made it all but law that what power they did have they were only to use in the most extreme circumstance? Like pretty certain they were more less the equivalent to angels.

This is just my interpretation from reading it 15+ years ago, but I think in the book just about everything magical that happens is severely understated. The reason the wizards feel "weak" is that the movies made all kinds of things super explicit and obvious that were really supposed to be very subtle. Magic isn't this big flashy in-your-face thing, it's always subtle, almost as if it were an illusion, and when you're seeing it you're not really sure that what your seeing is real or not. It's almost always described with phrases like "it seemed as if..." or "he felt as if he could see..." or "it appeared like..." etc. It was not usually if ever described as "and suddenly there was a huge <effect>...".

so in the movies, magical effects ARE done the explicit in-your-face way, but meanwhile the wizards themselves are not going around doing anything flashy, because that wasn't the way it was supposed to be. so now in the movie you have this disconnect between magic being this flashy obvious thing, and magic users that don't often or ever do flashy obvious things.
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Sahuagin posted...

Hirokey123 posted...

Weren't like the wizards all absurdly powerful but the powers that be specifically hindered their power while one this plane and made it all but law that what power they did have they were only to use in the most extreme circumstance? Like pretty certain they were more less the equivalent to angels.

This is just my interpretation from reading it 15+ years ago, but I think in the book just about everything magical that happens is severely understated. The reason the wizards feel "weak" is that the movies made all kinds of things super explicit and obvious that were really supposed to be very subtle. Magic isn't this big flashy in-your-face thing, it's always subtle, almost as if it were an illusion, and when you're seeing it you're not really sure that what your seeing is real or not. It's almost always described with phrases like "it seemed as if..." or "he felt as if he could see..." or "it appeared like..." etc. It was not usually if ever described as "and suddenly there was a huge <effect>...".

so in the movies, magical effects ARE done the explicit in-your-face way, but meanwhile the wizards themselves are not going around doing anything flashy, because that wasn't the way it was supposed to be. so now in the movie you have this disconnect between magic being this flashy obvious thing, and magic users that don't often or ever do flashy obvious things.

I believe a lot of it was supposed to be due to the Hobbit PoV for most scenes. So what is described as magical (such as most everything the elves do) is not necessarily supposed to be magic, the character's simply do not understand the methods behind what is going on.

Are they even wearing pants
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They wear a pantyhose-like material under their robes with a shimmering translucent effect in the moonlight. This was confirmed in the letters between Lewis and Tolkien as published by Christopher Tolkien.

Mead posted...

Are they even wearing pants

They prob don't wear underwear
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Blightzkrieg posted...

They wear a pantyhose-like material under their robes with a shimmering translucent effect in the moonlight. This was confirmed in the letters between Lewis and Tolkien as published by Christopher Tolkien.

Those perverts
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

You also start dropping dead 5 seconds after someone takes your ring or magic ghost away from you, so you're not really as tough as you think you are.

well yeah, those things are keeping you alive

you did get killed, it's what got you into that mess
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helIy posted...

well yeah, those things are keeping you alive

you did get killed, it's what got you into that mess

So did Gandalf, but he didn't need a ring or a prissy elf ghost to man up afterwards.

Cue pedantic observation that Gandalf actually did secretly have a Ring the whole time.


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Cue pedantic observation that Gandalf actually did secretly have a Ring the whole time.

Maybe he was the Lord of the Ring the whole time.

Maybe he was Sauron.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

helIy posted...

well yeah, those things are keeping you alive

you did get killed, it's what got you into that mess

So did Gandalf, but he didn't need a ring or a prissy elf ghost to man up afterwards.

Cue pedantic observation that Gandalf actually did secretly have a Ring the whole time.

Gandalf class changed and everything though

but it still took him how long to kill a Balrog? did he even actually kill it?
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The real reason is because the story isn't about the big, powerful wizards doing badass shit with magic, it's about the (literal) little guy being the real hero of the day.
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helIy posted...

Gandalf class changed and everything though

but it still took him how long to kill a Balrog? did he even actually kill it?

I halfheartedly looked it up and and apparently he chased the balrog for 8 days and the fought him for 2 more. Like, doesn't he need to sleep or something?
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Zangulus posted...

Gandolf? No. Hes literally a demigod sent to the psychical plane in order to help them not get destroyed. However he couldnt use his full power, as the inhabitants of the physical realm had to save themselves.

He could have literally murdered Souron for breakfast and not have broken a sweat. The Balrog even easier. But hes bound to more human standards.

He was sleeping when pippin grabbed the ball thing though
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Zangulus posted...

The question was did he need sleep, not if he could.

so he sleeps for kicks?
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Zangulus posted...

No. He sleeps because it probably helps him reset. He probably needs sleep at some point in time, especially in his human form. But when all of your companions do require sleep, why not use it? Most of the time he was up way before them anyway.

His endurance is just far beyond that of any other mortal being because of what he is. Whether that endurance could be broken is probable. But he was too smart to go straight up against anything that would test it.

Sounds like some fan fiction.
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Zangulus posted...

Nope. A lot of it is drawn from The Salmarillion. Its a historical fact all the wizards were demigods. Thats why there were only 5 and they were all hundreds of years a old.

Oh no I believe that, I mean those two paragraphs sounded kinda funny, like a fan guessing up stuff about a character and stuff, fan fiction yo lulz.
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So if Gandalf is such a cool guy, why can't he touch the ring?

He's supposed to be basically a god. He's gonna get corrupted by some garbo ring? You'd think it's power should be lesser than whatever power he has already.
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Zangulus posted...

You didnt read what I said, and youre ignoring his reasons he stated.

He could destroy Sauron without a sweat if he had access to his full powers. Limited as he was, he was only higher than humans and the power of Sauron would eventually take him over. He would try to weird the power for good but would slowly be possessed by it and he himself would be turned evil. He knew better than to try. Not that he didnt want to. The temptation was there.

Like I said, it was for the mortal creatures of middle earth to survive or die. Not for the gods to fix it for them.

The Gods arent manifestations. Theyre physical creatures in the world. Theyre just outside of it. They could come down and run wild all over Mordor any day of the week, but doing so their children wouldnt grow.

What I'm saying is how can a demigod become corrupted by a ring less power than the power he already has.

Like having a Mercedes and someone trying to tempt me with a Ford Pinto.
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Smarkil posted...

Zangulus posted...

You didnt read what I said, and youre ignoring his reasons he stated.

He could destroy Sauron without a sweat if he had access to his full powers. Limited as he was, he was only higher than humans and the power of Sauron would eventually take him over. He would try to weird the power for good but would slowly be possessed by it and he himself would be turned evil. He knew better than to try. Not that he didnt want to. The temptation was there.

Like I said, it was for the mortal creatures of middle earth to survive or die. Not for the gods to fix it for them.

The Gods arent manifestations. Theyre physical creatures in the world. Theyre just outside of it. They could come down and run wild all over Mordor any day of the week, but doing so their children wouldnt grow.

What I'm saying is how can a demigod become corrupted by a ring less power than the power he already has.

Like having a Mercedes and someone trying to tempt me with a Ford Pinto.

I don't know anything about Lord of the Rings (reading this topic has been interesting).

But wouldn't a more suitable comparison be:
You have a Mercedes that you're not allowed to use except in dire circumstances, and someone is trying to tempt you with a Ford Pinto.
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Is there anything to suggest Gandalf is as powerful as Sauron, even at his full power? Sauron was the maiar chosen as Melkor's right hand man. He was granted significant power by Melkor in addition to his own. Unless he was nerfed somehow or Gandalf is supposed to be way above average I was never under the impression the Istari could match him one on one.

All I know about Lotr either comes from the movies or the games. I never read the series except for the Hobbit.

Sauron seems like a pussy without the ring though, for whatever reason. In Shadow of War, some dipshit ghost elf manages to take him on pretty easily. I don't even know what to think.
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yeah they're disappointing. they're called Wizards yet you rarely ever see them use magic at all. Gandalf would huck a flaming pine cone before he would ever conjure a fireball.

Tention posted...

yeah they're disappointing. they're called Wizards yet you rarely ever see them use magic at all. Gandalf would huck a flaming pine cone before he would ever conjure a fireball.

the big wizard battle between him and saruman was just them tripping each other all over the place lulz.
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Zangulus posted...

Istari are a subset of the Maiar. So effectively they'll be almost matched.

I know, but even among Maiar Sauron is supposed to be one of the strongest, or at least was in the First Age.