Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 142: You know what you're getting into

(+) Yeah! (+)

I count Mike Tyson's Mysteries because I watch Mike Tyson's Mysteries

I don't count Hey Arnold because I don't watch Hey Arnold. Pretty clear! I counted every cartoon with a humanoid cast that I've watched.
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Oh, well, if it's strictly just a list of shows you watched, that's fine, but it doesn't really prove the point very well.
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Yeah it wasn't meant to be a representative list. I said it was one of shows I've watched.

But I mean when the difference is 90% to 33%, you'd basically have to be accusing me of doctoring the data outright to not think that means something. One shows 90%, one shows 33%. If you know anything about standard deviation you know that matters assuming pretty much any random set of shows.
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I don't think throwing around "90% vs. 33%" is fair when the totals are 47 vs. 31, for one. And like I said, there are certain things that are suspect. Like said, you count 2 Broke Girls as "some," but then count Simpsons as "None." Yeah, 2 Broke Girls has a black guy in every episode... But he's barely in it every episode. That seems like it'd balance with Simpsons commonly having Apu, Carl, etc.
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It absolutely is fair when the totals are 47 vs 31 when the percentages are that off, actually.

And I think Earl gets more plot relevance and screentime than Carl & Hibbert combined, and by a large margin at that, but I mean if you really wanna count Simpsons that's fine.
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Lopen posted...

It absolutely is fair when the totals are 47 vs 31 when the percentages are that off, actually.

Not really, no. That's pretty dishonest. Hell, I could give you a list by adding 10 shows to the 10s and taking 10 shows away from the 90s and suddenly they're within about 15% of each other.
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Also Deke is a major character and also more relevant than Hibbert and Carl combined and by a large margin. Also gets more than "a little every show" in the episodes he's in.
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Lopen posted...

Also Deke is a major character and also more relevant than Hibbert and Carl combined and by a large margin. Also gets more than "a little every show" in the episodes he's in.

Deke is in 8 episodes out of 137. If we're counting stuff like that then the 90s gets a lot more shows, too. >_>
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StealThisSheen posted...

Lopen posted...

It absolutely is fair when the totals are 47 vs 31 when the percentages are that off, actually.

Not really, no. That's pretty dishonest. Hell, I could give you a list by adding 10 shows to the 10s and taking 10 shows away from the 90s and suddenly they're within about 15% of each other.

No, I'm telling you it actually is, mathematically speaking. Yeah it's not a lot but the margin of error actually decreases by enough even at this sample size that you know if the percentages are that far off it's statistically significant.

This is if you assume my random sampling is actually random, of course. Which yeah, if you think I actually care enough to doctor the data to that extent then we don't really have anything to argue about since you're not going to trust me in general.
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Lopen posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Lopen posted...

It absolutely is fair when the totals are 47 vs 31 when the percentages are that off, actually.

Not really, no. That's pretty dishonest. Hell, I could give you a list by adding 10 shows to the 10s and taking 10 shows away from the 90s and suddenly they're within about 15% of each other.

No, I'm telling you it actually is, mathematically speaking. Yeah it's not a lot but the margin of error actually decreases by enough even at this sample size that you know if the percentages are that far off it's statistically significant.

This is if you assume my random sampling is actually random, of course. Which yeah, if you think I actually care enough to doctor the data to that extent then we don't really have anything to argue about since you're not going to trust me in general.

I mean, with little effort at all, I could get the difference in percentage down to single digits just from my own tv watching experience, and that's not even cherry picking or anything, but just skewing a bit more toward kids shows in the 90s, so putting that much weight into "It's 90 vs 33" doesn't say anything.
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Well, how large would your show list be, though. Like I seriously doubt if you name 30+ shows from each without cherry picking that you're getting it anywhere near single digits.

Like there becomes a point where you need more, but 47 and 31 shows are actually plenty to get a margin of error within like 25%, which is still a range that can't catch both of those so I mean yeah.

This wouldn't be accepted in any sort of official study, but like I'm not lying to you here. When the margin is that ridiculous high you don't really need all that many samples to be reasonably confident there's a statistically significant difference. Pinpointing the difference, obviously you need much more, but just to be pretty sure there's a notable difference the number you need goes way down if it's far off enough.

Like basically, if you assume the wikipedia page is right and that 1710 television series came out in the 90s, a sample size of 47 would in a range of around +/- 14% of being accurate to the entire sample assuming I'm remembering this crap right (very possible I'm not!). 30 would put you at around +/- 18%, so I mean, even assuming both stats are skewed in the most favorable way it'd be 72% vs 47% which is still a pretty significant difference.
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Lopen posted...

Like I seriously doubt if you name 30+ shows from each without cherry picking that you're getting it anywhere near single digits.

I can do that easily just by dropping some from the 90s list, replacing a few of the older 90s shows with a few Nickelodeon shows, and then replacing some of the 10s shows like Mike Tyson's Mysteries with actual popular shows like Vikings and Game of Thrones. >_>
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That is literally the definition of cherry picking. I'm saying by using your honest list.
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Lopen posted...

That is literally the definition of cherry picking. I'm saying by using your honest list.

No it's not. That IS describing my honest list. I watched stuff like Nickelodeon in the 90s and watch stuff like Vikings and Game of Thrones today.

That shouldn't seem crazy, that somebody watched Nickelodeon in the 90s and watches popular TV shows today.
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Hey I'd like to bring the conversation back to Arpaio for a second, since earlier people where talking about how he was "charged and convicted" in the context of a discussion on institutional racism.

I think it's very important to empathize that Arpaio was never charged with anything directly related to his actual abuses. He was convicted of contempt... for failing to obey a court order that simply said, "stop this." If he had simply followed that order he would literally never have faced any charges whatsoever for running literal concentration camps...
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Lopen: These are stats from shows i remember.

SEP: Yeah, but that data might be cherrypicked and/or inherently biased.

Lopen: Statistics. What say you?

SEP: Well if I literally hand select data it shows different numbers than the possibly cherry picked numbers.

Gotta side with Lopen on that one.

Though couldn't we put the issue to rest by selecting 50~ shows at random from each list and check their casts?
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

Lopen: These are stats from shows i remember.

SEP: Yeah, but that data might be cherrypicked and/or inherently biased.

Lopen: Statistics. What say you?

SEP: Well if I literally hand select data it shows different numbers than the possibly cherry picked numbers.

Gotta side with Lopen on that one.

Though couldn't we put the issue to rest by selecting 50~ shows at random from each list and check their casts?

"No it's not. That IS describing my honest list. I watched stuff like Nickelodeon in the 90s and watch stuff like Vikings and Game of Thrones today.

That shouldn't seem crazy, that somebody watched Nickelodeon in the 90s and watches popular TV shows today."

I was describing what's different about my list from his list.
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I mean, even assuming Vikings and Game of Thrones were on my list, and Mike Tyson's mysteries were not, it only changes it to 28/34 which is still 82% which is still pretty damn far off from the other one. 73% black shows in the 90s? Not buying it.
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What in the fuck is this weird ass argument even about?
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

Though couldn't we put the issue to rest by selecting 50~ shows at random from each list and check their casts?

Yeah that's definitely a better way to do it

I just happened to have a list of every show I'd watched (I intended to make a ripoff of Johnbobb's topic at one point) so it was significantly easier to do. If I wanted a more definitive answer, then yeah. I only really was going to post it out of interest, and then when the number was that high I was like "yeah, okay, you guys don't watch TV and I do I was totally right here"
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Currently gathering a list of shows I watched in the 90s and shows I watch now, since while it's not the best way to do it, you indirectly asked and I wanted to show that I wasn't cherry-picking/I was describing the differences. Admittedly, I don't watch quite as much TV now, so it's tougher.
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Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/921888248707846144
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/921889525881819136
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/921891186352287744

I agree getting Tax Cuts approved is important (we will also get HealthCare), but perhaps no Administration has done more in its first.....
...9 months than this Administration. Over 50 Legislation approvals, massive regulation cuts, energy freedom, pipelines, border security....
...2nd Amendment, Strong Military, ISIS, historic VA improvement, Supreme Court Justice, Record Stock Market, lowest unemployment in 17 yrs!

I...think Donald Trump just took credit for approving the 2nd Amendment?

Now you know he didnt. Why do you guys keep doing this.
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If you want a good method, search Wikipedia for TV series by year

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Television_series_debuts_by_year

That being said I'm sorry for inflicting this on you. I won't think less of you if you don't it's a colossal waste of time.
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Lopen posted...

Well to compare, try to name 10 TV shows from the 90s that don't have entirely black casts that had one or more black main characters

Cause I'm struggling to name even one, much less 55% of 90s TV shows like that top 10 list would expand to.

A team
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Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

Well to compare, try to name 10 TV shows from the 90s that don't have entirely black casts that had one or more black main characters

Cause I'm struggling to name even one, much less 55% of 90s TV shows like that top 10 list would expand to.

Law & Order
Perfect Strangers
South Park
NYPD Blue
Boy Meets World (later seasons)
ER
Married With Children
In Living Colour
Star Trek Voyager
Mighty Morphin Power Rangers

Huh. You seriously counting the dude from no maam as a main character?
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That's the 80s dude

Actually ironically more 80s shows came to mind than 90s when I brought it up. A Team and Night Court came to mind pretty immediately
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redrocket_pub posted...

Hey I'd like to bring the conversation back to Arpaio for a second, since earlier people where talking about how he was "charged and convicted" in the context of a discussion on institutional racism.

I think it's very important to empathize that Arpaio was never charged with anything directly related to his actual abuses. He was convicted of contempt... for failing to obey a court order that simply said, "stop this." If he had simply followed that order he would literally never have faced any charges whatsoever for running literal concentration camps...

What other crime did he commit?
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Corrik posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

Well to compare, try to name 10 TV shows from the 90s that don't have entirely black casts that had one or more black main characters

Cause I'm struggling to name even one, much less 55% of 90s TV shows like that top 10 list would expand to.

Law & Order
Perfect Strangers
South Park
NYPD Blue
Boy Meets World (later seasons)
ER
Married With Children
In Living Colour
Star Trek Voyager
Mighty Morphin Power Rangers

Huh. You seriously counting the dude from no maam as a main character?

Griff is definitely a main character for the last several seasons. Lopen has a point that he's brought in late, but when he's brought in, he's a main character.
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Yeah I don't doubt Griff one bit. Legit main character there.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Corrik posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

Well to compare, try to name 10 TV shows from the 90s that don't have entirely black casts that had one or more black main characters

Cause I'm struggling to name even one, much less 55% of 90s TV shows like that top 10 list would expand to.

Law & Order
Perfect Strangers
South Park
NYPD Blue
Boy Meets World (later seasons)
ER
Married With Children
In Living Colour
Star Trek Voyager
Mighty Morphin Power Rangers

Huh. You seriously counting the dude from no maam as a main character?

Griff is definitely a main character for the last several seasons. Lopen has a point that he's brought in late, but when he's brought in, he's a main character.

Are you confusing main with supporting?
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90s:

Yes
Martin
Family Matters
Hanging With My Cooper
Fresh Prince
King of Queens
South Park
Stargate
Futurama
Power Rangers
Walker Texas Ranger
Mad TV
Law & Order
Family Guy
Saved by the Bell
Married With Children
Boy Meets World
Hey Arnold
Kenan and Kel
My Brother and Me
All That
Salute Your Shorts
The Secret World of Alex Mack
Mystery Files of Shelby Wu
Beetleborgs
Simpsons
Star Treks
In Living Color

No
Hey Dude
Nash Bridges
Home Improvement
Friends
That 70s Show
King of the Hill
Everybody Loves Raymond
Full House

27/35

10s:

Yes
Parks and Recreation
Agents of Shield
Psych
Community
The Good Place
Law and Order SVU
The Walking Dead
Justified
Orville
Silicon Valley
Pretty Little Liars
Last Man On Earth
Crazy Ex-Girlfriend
Castle

No
Vikings
Game of Thrones
Agent Carter
Burn Notice
Prison Break (I included it as a Yes earlier because I was considering more minorities than just black initially)
Mr. Robot
Bob's Burgers
It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia
The League
The Middle
Rick and Morty
American Dad
Louie
Silicon Valley
House of Cards
Blue Bloods

14/30

You can probably see why I questioned the "More now than back then." >_>
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I think any character with some notable role in the majority of episodes after their introduction is good enough, personally. If you throw out Griff you throw out an awful lot, including most from both of my lists as well as Jakyl's
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No goddamn way you made an actual exhaustive list that fast. Making those lists initially took literally hours
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Basically, it looks like our biggest disagreement on the 90s vs. 10s just is chalked up to us watching different shows. My 90s was a lot of Nickelodeon stuff and not a ton of other sitcoms/such, whereas yours was a lot of the sitcoms and not much kids stuff.
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Lopen posted...

No goddamn way you made an actual exhaustive list that fast. Making those lists initially took literally hours

I doubt that's literally every show I watched an episode of or anything, but it's atleast 99% of the shows I've watched with any kind of consistency, based on lists I found.
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Also how the hell is Burn Notice a no. Jesse?
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Eh, I'll give you Burn Notice. Jesse's mixed, though. It's tough to consider him black like it's tough to consider Vin Diesel black. >_>
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Honestly it looks like you took my list, threw as many shows with black characters onto the yes pile on 90s and as many all white shows as possible on 10s and called it a day.

Also half of those 10s shows are 00s shows
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Vin Diesel is literally Pitch Black, dude.
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Like I said, though, overall it's chalked up to just a difference in what we watched. Kids shows were very inclusive back in the 90s... And it's possible they are today, but I wouldn't know compared to how I knew in the 90s. And then you watch more varied stuff today, whereas I kinda stick to major networks for the most part.

Obviously, this isn't a good way to do it, so neither of us can really say we have a point over the other.
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Lopen posted...

Honestly it looks like you took my list, threw as many shows with black characters onto the yes pile on 90s and as many all white shows as possible on 10s and called it a day.

Also half of those 10s shows are 00s shows

If they're still running now/ended within the last few years, I consider them 10s shows. Don't see anything wrong with that.

And that's not fair at all. I literally even warned you I watched a lot of Nickelodeon, which is a majority of what I added. You can't go "You can't question my list!" and then try to tell me my list is fake.
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My point is better because it's actually a correct sampling of what I've watched made by scouring every Wikipedia page.

Yours is just what you remember from my list combined with what you remembered to append to others. Not really an accurate sample.

Like it's kinda damming when you copy 14/18 of my shows with black people and add like 7 of your own, and like 7 from the other side and add one. I have extreme doubts your list is particularly accurate. Just the mindset you generated the lists with, really, combined with the fact it took you 5 minutes when it took me literally hours.
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StealThisSheen posted...

And that's not fair at all. I literally even warned you I watched a lot of Nickelodeon, which is a majority of what I added. You can't go "You can't question my list!" and then try to tell me my list is fake.

I can and am doing just that actually, and unlike you its not because I don't like the percentages
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"Your list doesn't mesh with the findings from my list, so it's fake"

That's surely going to win you an argument.

You're literally trying to damn my list because I included Nickelodeon shows on a 90s list, and then included popular shows like Game of Thrones, Mr. Robot, and Always Sunny in Philadephia

Really, now

"Oh no, SEP watched Kenan and Kel instead of Designing Women? He must be lying! Oh no, SEP watches Always Sunny?! No damn way does he watch Always Sunny! Nobody does!"
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I'm damming it less because of what you added and more the proportions of what you retained from mine, the mindset going in when you made it, and the fact you took no time at all doing it.
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You asked for lists of 30+ shows. It's not hard to remember 60 shows you've watched.

Is it 100% exhaustive? Probably not. But trying to damn it because 12 year old or younger me watched Nickelodeon over Designing Women makes you look ridiculous. Like, if you look at my 90s list, it's literally kids/family shows and then stuff my parents watched like Nash Bridges. But somehow, that's insane!
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If your list isn't actually exhaustive it's cherry picking

Going into this discussion, you were primed with this as your goal, so of course you're going to immediately remember more shows that fit the criteria you're looking for on each end, and if you're specifically working to reach a quota then yeah, those other shows that would balance it out don't come into play
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Lopen posted...

more the proportions of what you retained from mine

Yes, I retained stuff like Family Matters and Fresh Prince. You caught me, I'm lying. Those clearly don't mesh with other things on my list.

Wow.
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Lopen posted...

If your list isn't actually exhaustive it's cherry picking

Going into this discussion, you were primed with this as your goal, so of course you're going to immediately remember more shows that fit the criteria you're looking for on each end, and if you're specifically working to reach a quota then yeah, those other shows that would balance it out don't come into play

And you WEREN'T going in with criteria? Come on, now. The only thing telling us yours is exhaustive is your word, which means shit since you're refusing to accept mine.
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Like the fact that you literally admitted to cherry picking outright by saying you only needed to get to 30, and think I'm being unreasonable to discard your list.

Come on, dude.
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