Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 142: You know what you're getting into

(+) Yeah! (+)

FFDragon posted...

Also if you're going to name an all-black show, go with the good one -- Atlanta.

Black-ish is a fine program sir
---

StealThisSheen posted...

But there aren't really a lot of shows with half black casts, either. Most of the popular shows have maybe one or two black characters, some have none. So we've traded having more all black shows for... Lethal Weapon.

Their representation on TV has kinda gone down since the 90s, not up. >_>

There were more black people overall, maybe (I'm not sure on this, honestly, but let's say maybe)

But the number of unsegregated black people has gone way up, for sure

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_representation_in_Hollywood

Just looking at the list of Academy Award Winners and density kinda shows a lot of progression there even since the 1990s, and as of the 21st Century we actually have representation in the awards roughly proportional to population percentage.

So I mean, yeah.
---

Oh, Empire, is that still on?

I miss Martin. One of the best shows of my teen years
---

Yeah I don't know if a bunch of all black sitcoms is a good thing for race equality anyway.

It evokes the feeling of "here's black television for black people, and the rest is white tv. Blacks and Whites sure like different things!"

Having just more black characters in every show is probably better. Of course they actually have to be main characters and stuff, not just the white protag's best friend.
---

The fact that you think it's "factually incorrect" shows that either

A. You assume anything that is against your point is factually incorrect unless proof is given to the contrary-- again, not a good look. Probably speaks a lot to your mindset in these topics and could be worked on.
B. You don't watch TV anymore and thus don't really have any ground to stand on in this argument.

Like to me this isn't even debatable.
---

Lopen, can you please confirm whether I'm understanding your posts correctly? The impression I'm getting is:

a) A random white American is more likely to be financially successful than a random black American;
b) But that's not because of discrimination in modern almost-post-racist America, it's because of discrimination in historic quite-racist America, which resulted in previous generations of black Americans having a diminished ability to provide their modern descendants with inheritances of land, money, blood ties to influential families, and so on;
c) Which isn't institutional racism.

Am I reading you right?

Edit: Also, can I say that it's odd to hear " You assume anything that is against your point is factually incorrect unless proof is given to the contrary" from you? I mean, Jakyl25 did provide evidence in support of his position (the "whiter resumes get more interviews" study), while the only numbers you provide have, by your own admission, been invented by you.
---

Lopen posted...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_representation_in_Hollywood

I have no reason to post this, but curious link clicking off that had me end up here:

He briefly sang the words "Barack the magic negro" to the tune of "Puff, the Magic Dragon"

and I just felt like more eyes needed to see that sentence.
---

I like that Barack sounds like a japanese person saying black
---

That's pretty much what I'm saying, Malcolm, yeah.

Only real change is I'd say what I'm really saying is

c) You can't really fix this by attempting to fix "racism" because racism isn't the root of the problem here and it affects everyone who is descended from poverty stricken people pretty well equally at this point, regardless of race.

That avoids the semantic argument that I don't really want to get into and keeps us on point.
---

Lopen posted...

A. You assume anything that is against your point is factually incorrect unless proof is given to the contrary-- again, not a good look. Probably speaks a lot to your mindset in these topics and could be worked on.

Well in this case its a hard fact one way or the other. Either minority roles have increased or they havent. This isnt really a matter of opinion. I could be totally wrong even!
---

The fact that you assume you're right by default there though, again, not a good look.

Like it's not an easy statistic to generate and post to prove you wrong, but I'm extremely confident I'm right, particularly when you remove black people from "segregated TV shows" from the equation which again is the more important thing to me, cause as pj said a bunch of all black sitcoms being the exclusive black representation on tv isn't exactly great for racial equality anyway.
---

Lopen posted...

The fact that you assume you're right by default there though, again, not a good look.

Lopen posted...

Like it's not an easy statistic to generate and post to prove you wrong, but I'm extremely confident I'm right

How can these be back to back thoughts
---

If you remove all-black shows from the Count I feel like you have to remove all-white shows from it too.
---

Well in this case its a hard fact one way or the other. Either minority roles have increased or they havent. This isnt really a matter of opinion.

If you remove all-black shows from the Count I feel like you have to remove all-white shows from it too.

How can these be back to back thoughts. :P

(Edit: Never underestimate the ability of the human race to quibble over rules!)
---

Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

The fact that you assume you're right by default there though, again, not a good look.

Lopen posted...

Like it's not an easy statistic to generate and post to prove you wrong, but I'm extremely confident I'm right

How can these be back to back thoughts

By watching TV. It's observed pretty easily.

Keep in mind I didn't say you're outright "factually incorrect." I said you're "probably incorrect." Despite having probably a lot more experience with the medium (given you don't know half of these TV series even exist) I have less confidence than you, somehow. Weird!

MalcolmMasher posted...

I mean, Jakyl25 did provide evidence in support of his position (the "whiter resumes get more interviews" study), while the only numbers you provide have, by your own admission, been invented by you.

Jakyl's study doesn't even provide (exact) numbers though. I clicked the link because I was legitimately interested and it basically was just pulling numbers out of your ass.

Though on a closer read there is an actual PDF linked in there which I'm hoping does, so I'm going to read the actual methodology used and see how well it measures things I'd find interesting. Probably more actual looking into the study than Jakyl has ever done, but you know.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

I asked for how we have progressed since the 90s and your answer was more black characters on TV which Im pretty sure is factually wrong

---

Lopen posted...

By watching TV. It's observed pretty easily.

Were you watching TV in the 80s and 90s though

I may not watch a lot of TV now but I watched a lot of TV then
---

Also our argument is obscuring FFDs amazing find
---

Let's look at the top 10 most popular TV shows right now to see if we can get an idea...

10. Sherlock: No main characters
9. Vampire Diaries: 1
8. Thirteen Reasons Why: Not an actual TV show, discounted for our purposes
7. The Flash: 2
6. Big Bang Theory: 0
5. Vikings: 0
4. Prison Break: ...I think 1 counts?
3. Pretty Little Liars: 2ish, though they are extremely, extremely light skinned to the point where it's kinda awkward
2. The Walking Dead: 1 main cast, though I guess you can count Morgan now since he's not just recurring anymore, so 2.
1. Game of Thrones: 0

I'm honestly not sure it's more than the 90s. The CW does pretty great at it, actually, but the rest of TV... Eh. >_>
---

Yeah

And you're pretty sure based on all the knowledge of a guy

1. Doesn't know Lethal Weapon is a show on TV
2. Doesn't know if Empire is still on or not
3. Can't name any majority black casts currently on TV other than Blackish

Like, are you going to argue you feel you watch enough TV to feel like you had this confidence based off of anything? Cause based on what you've projected to the topic I'm pretty skeptical

And you just admitted you haven't, so yeah. Your confidence had no basis whatsoever. Thank you. (And yes I watched a lot of TV in the 90s)
---

Jakyl25 posted...

Also our argument is obscuring FFDs amazing find

https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/921134864317014017

they're on it apparently
---

Well to compare, try to name 10 TV shows from the 90s that don't have entirely black casts that had one or more black main characters

Cause I'm struggling to name even one, much less 55% of 90s TV shows like that top 10 list would expand to.
---

StealThisSheen posted...

Let's look at the top 10 most popular TV shows right now to see if we can get an idea...

10. Sherlock: No main characters
9. Vampire Diaries: 1
8. Thirteen Reasons Why: Not an actual TV show, discounted for our purposes
7. The Flash: 2
6. Big Bang Theory: 0
5. Vikings: 0
4. Prison Break: ...I think 1 counts?
3. Pretty Little Liars: 2ish, though they are extremely, extremely light skinned to the point where it's kinda awkward
2. The Walking Dead: 1 main cast, though I guess you can count Morgan now since he's not just recurring anymore, so 2.
1. Game of Thrones: 0

I'm honestly not sure it's more than the 90s. The CW does pretty great at it, actually, but the rest of TV... Eh. >_>

Its predecessor UPN was good at diversity too. Everybody Hates Chris was an amazing show, and they had multiple other majority black shows that werent mainly about race

But then they also had Homeboys in Outer Space so you win some, you lose some
---

Lopen posted...

Well to compare, try to name 10 TV shows from the 90s that don't have entirely black casts that had one or more black main characters

Cause I'm struggling to name even one, much less 55% of 90s TV shows like that top 10 list would expand to.

To be fair, of the shows that have black people in the top ten, most of them like Walking Dead, Prison Break, and Pretty Little Liars have huge casts, so they're still pretty way off, proportionally.
---

saved by the bell is the first that came to mind
---

Only seen one of those three in TWD, but Michonne gets a lot of screen time and importance and would be worth like 2 or 3 of the lower cast members, so I mean, it's still looking pretty good I feel.

And also I think saying it's just Michonne is a bit misleading to begin with. Lots of others over the course of the series have had varying degrees of importance-- they're just dead or less important now. As far as percentages go it's probably about right.
---

Lopen posted...

Well to compare, try to name 10 TV shows from the 90s that don't have entirely black casts that had one or more black main characters

Cause I'm struggling to name even one, much less 55% of 90s TV shows like that top 10 list would expand to.

Law & Order
Perfect Strangers
South Park
NYPD Blue
Boy Meets World (later seasons)
ER
Married With Children
In Living Colour
Star Trek Voyager
Mighty Morphin Power Rangers
---

Okay some of those arent MAIN characters but I think that was a good start
---

Ally McBeal

I only remember that because my mom loved it. >_>
---

Funny part is that you've got a lot of those being added late in the series too, like Griff in Married With Children wasn't added until the series was almost over either. Kinda helps my point imo.

But yeah I'm not saying they didn't exist, but I do feel the number was lower by a pretty wide margin than it is today. I actually made a list of shows I'd seen by year recently so I may actually be able to get a decent idea of what the 90s look like here without killing myself too much.
---

It's kinda funny that Married With Children of all shows had better representation than most sitcoms do now.
---

Oz
The Real World
Other Star Treks
---

Lopen posted...

Funny part is that you've got a lot of those being added late in the series too, like Griff in Married With Children wasn't added until the series was almost over either. Kinda helps my point imo.

Officer Dan, albeit not a main character, was there the entire time, though.

Compare that to something like Big Bang Theory today, and... >_>
---

Also in the 90s we had prominent black talk show hosts like Oprah and Arsenio Hall that havent really been replaced on that level

Yes I know Whoopi is on The View
---

StealThisSheen posted...

Lopen posted...

Funny part is that you've got a lot of those being added late in the series too, like Griff in Married With Children wasn't added until the series was almost over either. Kinda helps my point imo.

Officer Dan, albeit not a main character, was there the entire time, though.

Compare that to something like Big Bang Theory today, and... >_>

Dude, in the 90s there was somewhat of a talking point about Why do black people not watch Seinfeld and Friends? like it was some big mystery
---

And as a counterpoint to Married With Children adding Griff late, the original Law and Order had several black characters, whereas SVU which came later had... Ice-T.
---

Was Arsenio Hall really that prominent. I probably wouldn't put him above the level of like Steve Harvey

Oprah hasn't been replaced but some people just can't be replaced ya know. Oprah is legend.
---

Lopen posted...

Was Arsenio Hall really that prominent. I probably wouldn't put him above the level of like Steve Harvey

He wasnt Carson, Leno, or Letterman but he was a bigger deal than, say, Seth Meyers.

The entire cultural meme about Bill Clinton playing the saxophone comes from his appearance on Arsenio!
---

Basically, I think what it boils down to is that representation rose in the 90s, fell after that, and is now rising again. But it's rising again now... Because of protest, so. >_>
---

I really don't agree with that either way. I'm actually making a breakdown of 90s vs 10s though to investigate.
---

I'd say diversity has probably improved overall on television over the years. But I'm not sure that says much about anything but television itself. TV has probably also had more gay characters recently than ever before, and homophobia is still a major problem.

That goes for gender as well. Female representation on tv used to be much worse.
---

I would like a reconciliation of these two statements:

Lopen posted...

c) You can't really fix this by attempting to fix "racism" because racism isn't the root of the problem here and it affects everyone who is descended from poverty stricken people pretty well equally at this point, regardless of race.

Lopen posted...

Also by far the main reason BLM is more effective than Occupy Wallstreet is the rise of Social Media. The people are a lot more effective at generating a voice now.

I feel like you cant say BLM has been effective while also saying protesting racism does no good at this point.
---

Dancedreamer posted...

I'd say diversity has probably improved overall on television over the years. But I'm not sure that says much about anything but television itself. TV has probably also had more gay characters recently than ever before, and homophobia is still a major problem.

OMFG, 20 years ago it was a GINORMOUS HUMONGOUS DEAL that Ellen came out as gay on her sitcom (and in real life). Like, acknowledging that gay people exist and that their lives are otherwise normal was ultra controversial.

Homophobia is still a huge problem, yeah, but holy shit we have come a long way very quickly
---

(Also that might be when I became a progressive because its the first time I can remember feeling outraged about conservative stances on a minority group)
---

Jakyl25 posted...

I feel like you cant say BLM has been effective while also saying protesting racism does no good at this point.

Relative terms, sure I can. I mean Occupy Wall Street felt like it actively set things back to be honest. Like they were kinda treated as entitled kids more than an effective protest-- probably because most of your coverage there is from the media which can skew it to fit their agenda.

BLM is at worst neutral. Like, awareness there's potentially some sort of problem is increasing, which may be a net good (I didn't say it does "no good" I said protesting other stuff would be a more effective use of resources), but it's not a given anything is actually being helped to any notable amount at this moment.
---

Do you think a rebranded OWS happened today it could accomplish something?
---

Because through this whole ordeal Ive never disagreed with you that wealth inequality is the number one issue and Id love to do more than just join the DSA
---

I do think a rebranded OWS could accomplish something for sure.

It just needs to be like... not a bunch of disgruntled college students.

Like to me it's not that I think BLM isn't a potentially useful movement. In the 70s or 80s, it would've accelerated things a ton.

I just think that the majority of the lots have been cast in that fight already. Like, being taught all about the Civil Rights movement in school really helps a lot on that front I think-- kids are basically taught not to be racist at this point. I think that combined with there being no particular stigma or different treatment obviously present in society at this moment basically means that being sure everyone is educated does a lot for being sure no one is a racist, and as said, the majority of the work left to do is accomplished with time.

I think with OWS you've got more development in that regard. Like, if you're born into a middle class family, how can you even pretend to empathize with the plight of the poor? Like, the actual poor who are struggling to get legitimate education to begin with due to trouble at home or whatever. Not just the lower class. It's just not something that gets a lot of attention.
---

By the way, I made up the lists. My list of black representation in TV series for 10s vs 90s came out to

19/47 for (4 of those being all black comedies) for the 1990s
vs
29/31 for the 2010s (only all black show I'd name really is Empire. Blackish & Luke Cage don't really count imo) (should be 29/32 cause I forgot literally The Big Bang Theory)

So uh, yeah, when I say "it's obvious if you watch TV" it is quite obvious if you watch TV. I suspected SEP's list might not have been representative when literally BBT and Vikings (obvious reasons on the latter, and with BBT actually standing out for it on the former) were on it. Obviously, this is just a sample of shows I've watched, but it's large enough that I think it's fairly conclusive evidence that I am in fact correct on this.

List if anyone is interested:

https://pastebin.com/1sdX1Uiw
---

To be fair, I think your list is a little biased when you're counting stuff like Mike Tyson's Mysteries, but not Hey Arnold, and you count 2 Broke Girls as "Some," but then Simpsons as "None." Also, you discounted things like Vikings and Game of Thrones for... Reasons? >_>

Like, if this is just a list of shows YOU personally have watched, that's fine, but it's not fair to call it completely representative.
---