Poll of the Day > Did you know? (related to ongoing antifa/neo-Nazi feud)

(+) Yeah! (+)

With all these uneducated WWII comments and references trying to prove their side is right in the neo-Nazi and antifa foolishness at the moment, here's some historical perspective as to why this is not helpful (the word "fun" being used ironically):

Fun fact #1: the US military was still segregated during WWII (Truman ended it in 1948).
Fun fact #2: no black soldiers were awarded with the Medal of Honor during WWII.
Fun fact #3: it wasn't uncommon for blacks to have to give up their seats on trains for Nazi POWs.
Fun fact #4: in 1939, following the outbreak of WWII, a poll determined 94% of Americans were against interfering.
Fun fact #5: Japanese-Americans were put in concentration camps while German-Americans were not.

Bonus fun fact:

In a 1938 poll, approximately 60 percent of the respondents held a low opinion of Jews, labeling them "greedy," "dishonest," and "pushy." 41 percent of respondents agreed that Jews had "too much power in the United States," and this figure rose to 58 percent by 1945. In 1939 a Roper poll found that only thirty-nine percent of Americans felt that Jews should be treated like other people. Fifty-three percent believed that "Jews are different and should be restricted" and ten percent believed that Jews should be deported. Several surveys taken from 1940 to 1946 found that Jews were seen as a greater threat to the welfare of the United States than any other national, religious, or racial group.

Yeah, let's keep using WWII as a reference for what's going on right now (sarcasm). It's about as accurately implemented as the "literal Hitler" accusations flying around this place. All of the reactionary aggression and ignorance has prompted me to point this out as calmly and intelligently as possible, as a means of limiting dialogue to more productive areas of discussion. If anything, racism was far more widespread and acceptable during the '30s & '40s, and the West and Germany had more in common with their values socially during that period than we realize at first glance. Both of today's left and right fringes are fascists in their own ways, and the "anti-fascists" of WWII would definitely not side with anti-constitutional groups such as antifa based on what we objectively know of the culture from which they came (and I'm not implying they'd side with the neo-Nazis, just so we're clear).

Sources (because I realize this is a controversial topic and don't want to be misunderstood or considered offensive):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_against_African_Americans_in_the_U.S._military#World_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism_in_the_United_States#1930s
https://visitpearlharbor.org/didnt-american-initially-join-war/
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1: yes
2: I didn't know for a fact but I assumed
3: no
4: not the specific statistic but I knew most didn't want to be a part of it
5: yes
bonus: again, not to the percentage detail, but i knew about the genera sentiment, yeah
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MrMelodramatic posted...

none of this is really all that controversial or obscure.

Trust me, somebody's been triggered. I just wanted to make it clear that wasn't my intention.
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And jews are rude at removing palestine from its place so i get the sentiment. Here, its more prevalent (cause palestine are our allies both in religion and political economy side) indonesian hate zionism and jews in general
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both sides have way too much time on their hands.
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TheCyborgNinja posted...

If anything, racism was far more widespread and acceptable during the '30s & '40s, and the West and Germany had more in common with their values socially during that period than we realize at first glance.

Which is part of why there's been such a huge backlash against racism and whatnot since WWII. Hitler showed the world the horrific effects of taking racism to extremes, something he was able to do largely because the rest of the world was so complacent about antisemitism. We've seen what happens when people let enough casual racism seep into their lives that they don't pay attention to the dangerous racists. That's really not something we want to repeat, and remembering the Nazis as a horrible extreme of racism helps with that.
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I fail to see the point of this topic.

I mean, what are you trying to say here? That America was shitty and racist back in the War years? Of course it was. We've known that for a long time. There's a reason why the treatment of Japan and Japanese-Americans vis-a-vis the internment camps is still looked upon as a major black mark in American history.

Meanwhile, over in Germany, Jews, communists, intellectuals, gays, leftists, and other enemies of the state were being rounded up by the literal trainload and sent to be burned in furnaces.

The summation of that is that no one should be pining for that era of history.

You know who does want to go back to the way things were back then? The neo-Nazis that were marching in Charlottesville. That's it. The counter-protesters are not suggesting that we emulate wartime-era America in response; if anything, most of them stand directly in opposition to a lot of American culture of the day, which was anti-gay, anti-Semitic, anti-black, and skewed hard right-wing (being accused of being a communist back then was analogous to being accused of being a Nazi today, and was every bit as much of a career ender).
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My point is that people are making call-backs to WWII to justify arguments today and have no idea what they're talking about. It's creating a shit-storm of ignorance. Many counter-protesters (or allies) are using WWII as part of the rhetoric against the neo-Nazis, when the facts I have presented invalidated this. The antifa camp thinking the generation that voted 53% in favour of Jews having their rights restricted and embraced strong anti-socialist sentiments wanting anything to do with a group of people who don't believe in the first amendment and do believe in bending over backwards on SJW crusades with things like "white privilege checklists" is ludicrous. That doesn't mean the vets would support the neo-Nazis, by any means. I highly doubt they would. But it's clear as day that antifa in its present state would be considered very subversive to anyone even a few decades ago. They're basically taking the names of the WWII soldiers in vain because their more radical policies don't hold any water. Ever. Those veterans would today be targeted and protested by antifa for the commonly held beliefs of that time, yet they're using their glory to further their agenda. It's insulting in more than one way.

On the other side, you have a freakshow Hitler openly found repugnant trying to fight some odd "campaign of history's losers" to restore their dead ideologies to glory. It swings both ways, and everyone involved is stupid.
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The counter-protestors are far more sympathetic and correct than the right wing protestors. I still cringed though when they kept comparing themselves to the soldiers who stormed Normandy beaches, though.

TheCyborgNinja posted...

Many counter-protesters (or allies) are using WWII as part of the rhetoric against the neo-Nazis, when the facts I have presented invalidated this

Erm... no, the facts you've presented haven't invalidated anything.

You've proved that war-era America did some pretty awful things. That means nothing considering that no one on any side is suggesting we go back to the ideals of war-era America.

TheCyborgNinja posted...

It swings both ways, and everyone involved is stupid.

You're leaving out a sizable group of people: the counter-protesters who weren't part of antifa. Which is to say, you're leaving out nearly all of the counter-protesters.
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TheCyborgNinja posted...

Fun fact #2: no black soldiers were awarded with the Medal of Honor during WWII.

Any reason why you ignore the fact that we were like "yeah, we fucked up" and then went back and upgraded seven of them?

Cacciato posted...

TheCyborgNinja posted...

Fun fact #2: no black soldiers were awarded with the Medal of Honor during WWII.

Any reason why you ignore the fact that we were like "yeah, we fucked up" and then went back and upgraded seven of them?

Because this whole topic is about referencing WWII (and that general time period) directly, not decades later. It could not have been written more clearly. "No black soldiers were awarded with the Medal of Honor during WWII." Learn how to read...
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That seems like an unnecessary amount of edits.

darkknight109 posted...

TheCyborgNinja posted...

Many counter-protesters (or allies) are using WWII as part of the rhetoric against the neo-Nazis, when the facts I have presented invalidated this

Erm... no, the facts you've presented haven't invalidated anything.

You've proved that war-era America did some pretty awful things. That means nothing considering that no one on any side is suggesting we go back to the ideals of war-era America.

TheCyborgNinja posted...

It swings both ways, and everyone involved is stupid.

You're leaving out a sizable group of people: the counter-protesters who weren't part of antifa. Which is to say, you're leaving out nearly all of the counter-protesters.

1. Yes, I have invalidated it, because regardless of normal or shitty counter-protesters, they lack an understand of WWII America by improperly utilizing the references they're making. They're drawing from a romanticised version.

2. In that post, I specifically go out of my way to mention antifa and neo-Nazis by name throughout the majority of that post when I am addressing them and them alone. That was who I was directing that comment towards. I'll give you that a new paragraph makes it a bit ambiguous, but I placed right after discussing the radical groups. My bad.
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But seriously guys stop calling us nazi's it hurts our feelings!

KevinceKostner posted...

But seriously guys stop calling us nazi's it hurts our feelings!

I think you've missed the point. Antifa are just another form of fascism, ironically enough, and it's erroneous to treat them like they're not because they've got better PR. Their agenda is toxic. Hitler and Stalin were both mass-murderers, but Stalin gets a free pass because his crimes weren't racially motivated. That's how stupid this is. It's possible to dislike two opposing radical organizations.
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TheCyborgNinja posted...

Antifa are just another form of fascism

Antifa are more anarchist than communist or fascist. They tend to be strongly anti-government, which is pretty much the complete opposite of communism.
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TheCyborgNinja posted...

KevinceKostner posted...

But seriously guys stop calling us nazi's it hurts our feelings!

I think you've missed the point. Antifa are just another form of fascism, ironically enough, and it's erroneous to treat them like they're not because they've got better PR. Their agenda is toxic. Hitler and Stalin were both mass-murderers, but Stalin gets a free pass because his crimes weren't racially motivated. That's how stupid this is. It's possible to dislike two opposing radical organizations.

You have absolutely no fucking clue what you're talking about.

Antifa means you're anti fascism. Fascism is bad. Neo Nazis want fascism. To try and equate them with fucking neo Nazis just shows how ignorant you are. Christ.
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TheCyborgNinja posted...

My point is that people are making call-backs to WWII to justify arguments today

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
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This is a very informative post. Thank you TC.
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TheCyborgNinja posted...

My point is that people are making call-backs to WWII to justify arguments today and have no idea what they're talking about.

WWII and its legacy. Did everyone hate the Nazis for restricting the rights of Jews? No, nobody really cared, because everybody hated Jews a little. Afterwards, though, when it came to light just what atrocities Hitler had committed by taking that hatred to the extreme, everybody started caring a whole lot more. What the Nazis did may have been consistent with how the rest of the world felt, but no decent person could look at Auschwitz and say "yeah, that's what I wanted." Instead, every decent person looked at Auschwitz and said "I don't want that to happen again." The Nazis may not have been ideological enemies before the war, but they definitely were after, and that's how they're treated today.
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