Board 8 > Damn, the world of YA novels is toxic as hell

(+) Yeah! (+)

http://www.vulture.com/2017/08/the-toxic-drama-of-ya-twitter.html?utm_campaign=vulture&utm_source=fb&utm_medium=s1

If you have the chance, give this a read. This strange form of criticism would likely see classics throughout literary history getting slammed; it's honestly kind of scary the lengths to which some people are willing to go in order to avoid challenging themselves with any other worldview.
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People aren't really taught proper literary criticism in school so this kind of thing doesn't surprise me
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It's worth noting that Ed Bellis was forced to change his novel specifically to avoid finding himself victim to just such a scenario.

His MC was gay and Korean. As most of you know, Ed is gay, but he isn't Korean. He and I live in an area where there is an extensive Korean community, however, and he talked to quite a few people he knew about what details he needed to include to make the story sound authentically Korean.

His publisher sent an early version of the book to a renowned diversity blogger, who decried the manuscript as a horrible case of stereotyping, and declared that if the book were published, she would lead a crusade against it. She made such a fuss that the publisher took her seriously, and told Ed to rewrite the story so the MC is white.

Now, I happen to work with a lot of the local Korean families, and to be honest, I thought that his writing of the MC's family was genuine. If something sounds like a stereotype, it's often because there are people who actually embody it. I knew people who did. It's pretty sad when a writer is called out for depicting reality. It's also really sad when a diversity blogger -- whose community complains constantly about the lack of representation in publishing -- issues a call to arms that simply leads to less diversity.

The book's MC will still be gay. I would have giggled hysterically if she had tried to tell him that his portrayal of a gay character was bigoted and making the LGBT community look bad. But there isn't a single person in the story now who isn't white. Having spoke with Ed about his writing extensively, this seems almost anathema to the way he creates his cast, so GG lady.
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So this book is about how racism is bad and wrong, and people are calling it racist, basically?
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Thx scarlet, this was worth a look.
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Geez

I wonder if Terry Pratchett got some of this ridiculousness for his Tiffany Aching series

And yeah from what I read the first reviewer that got angry was angry because the racists were too racists
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not sure if you know this, azuarc, but did ed try different publishers?

getting turned down by publishers as a novelist is pretty normal. even j.k. rowling got turned down by like 20 publishing companies before bloomsbury accepted harry potter. i'm not sure if ed should have rewritten the book just because his publisher turned out to be a moron who took that crazy bitch blogger seriously. (hell, nowadays you can even easily self-publish your book if you want to get it out there. that way you don't have to deal with publishers at all.)
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

not sure if you know this, azuarc, but did ed try different publishers?

I'd be surprised if this was the very first one he tried, to be fair

This is something I've feared for ages, I wonder how many important stories have been lost because of this bollocks.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

not sure if you know this, azuarc, but did ed try different publishers?

This was after he was already in a contract. The book had gone through several dozen people in the contest that got him noticed, about ten agents who were all interested in signing him, and all the relevant people at the publishing house before this blogger got to see the manuscript, and nobody had a problem with it. Then again, perhaps they were all white and blind to any bias that would exist.

Ed decided it was safer to remove the Korean aspects of the book and let his debut work actually get published than it was to fight for his novel to remain as-is. While I'm a little upset at him for giving in, I'd probably have done the same in his position. The publisher was only giving him these instructions to protect him from a fight.
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SupremeZero posted...

So this book is about how racism is bad and wrong, and people are calling it racist, basically?

Not only that, but the book also seems to be about not following what you're told and learning through your own experiences. Which none of them are doing because of a bad reviewer.
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azuarc posted...

While I'm a little upset at him for giving in, I'd probably have done the same in his position.

yeah, can't fault him for doing what he did if he was in a contract.

this is more proof of my point that self-publishing is the way to go, though!
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This is really disheartening to read, especially since I'm in the process of writing a YA novel myself right now. It makes me want to second guess a lot of things that I had already second guessed.

It's this kind of stuff that makes me loathe the outrage culture nowadays, where things like a YA book that's meant to show that sometimes people who were raised to believe things such as racism have a capability to change is lambasted because it said some bad things in it. It just blows my mind, because this kind of thinking where anyone who reads this book is racist in a book meant to show people can stop being racist is awful. I just imagine some child who has grown up with racist parents reading this book and starting to think about the way her or she sees people in the world, but people claim you aren't allowed to see and think about that ugliness.

It's very disheartening. Like, I'm sad now over it.

And Ed's story doesn't surprise me at all. This is absolutely not his first publisher, and the sad truth is that he probably didn't want to risk that backlash, because if crazy blogger lady thought that, she can easily get an outrage pouring onto people like this person did with this book. Granted, it wouldn't be quite this much, but I will guarantee you that nowadays something as small as him having supposed stereotypes for Koreans would get blown up.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

azuarc posted...

While I'm a little upset at him for giving in, I'd probably have done the same in his position.

yeah, can't fault him for doing what he did if he was in a contract.

this is more proof of my point that self-publishing is the way to go, though!

Self publishing is nice. However, it's extremely difficult unless you already have a following of people. It's hard to get the word out. You're your own writer, but if your book is something you would love to be big and have a chance to make some money and a bigger name for yourself, you're better off with a publisher.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

You're your own writer, but if your book is something you would love to be big and have a chance to make some money and a bigger name for yourself, you're better off with a publisher.

yeah, that's the thing. if you want to be big it's better to get a publisher, but obviously it brings a risk of compromising your artistic integrity (as shown by the ed story).
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at least ed has prior experience using white guys to censor things
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azuarc posted...

It's worth noting that Ed Bellis was forced to change his novel specifically to avoid finding himself victim to just such a scenario.

His MC was gay and Korean. As most of you know, Ed is gay, but he isn't Korean. He and I live in an area where there is an extensive Korean community, however, and he talked to quite a few people he knew about what details he needed to include to make the story sound authentically Korean.

His publisher sent an early version of the book to a renowned diversity blogger, who decried the manuscript as a horrible case of stereotyping, and declared that if the book were published, she would lead a crusade against it. She made such a fuss that the publisher took her seriously, and told Ed to rewrite the story so the MC is white.

Now, I happen to work with a lot of the local Korean families, and to be honest, I thought that his writing of the MC's family was genuine. If something sounds like a stereotype, it's often because there are people who actually embody it. I knew people who did. It's pretty sad when a writer is called out for depicting reality. It's also really sad when a diversity blogger -- whose community complains constantly about the lack of representation in publishing -- issues a call to arms that simply leads to less diversity.

The book's MC will still be gay. I would have giggled hysterically if she had tried to tell him that his portrayal of a gay character was bigoted and making the LGBT community look bad. But there isn't a single person in the story now who isn't white. Having spoke with Ed about his writing extensively, this seems almost anathema to the way he creates his cast, so GG lady.

This is the most fascinating post I've read on this board in years.
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My Immortal posted...

SupremeZero posted...

So this book is about how racism is bad and wrong, and people are calling it racist, basically?

Not only that, but the book also seems to be about not following what you're told and learning through your own experiences. Which none of them are doing because of a bad reviewer.

Those post reminds me of when Fahrenheit 451 was banned.
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Yeah, I remember Ed Bellis walking me through that entire situation as it was unfolding. I know it was hard for him to have to make that change simply because one person's outrage, but it was better than him possibly losing his dream altogether.
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Here's an interesting question: if the author was a minority writing this book about a girl being a bigot against other mythical creatures and learning to overcome it, would it have been treated like this?

I really don't think so. I believe that instead of railing that quote as being horrible they'd instead be talking about how gritty and real of a metaphor it was.
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azuarc posted...

It's worth noting that Ed Bellis was forced to change his novel specifically to avoid finding himself victim to just such a scenario.

His MC was gay and Korean. As most of you know, Ed is gay, but he isn't Korean. He and I live in an area where there is an extensive Korean community, however, and he talked to quite a few people he knew about what details he needed to include to make the story sound authentically Korean.

His publisher sent an early version of the book to a renowned diversity blogger, who decried the manuscript as a horrible case of stereotyping, and declared that if the book were published, she would lead a crusade against it. She made such a fuss that the publisher took her seriously, and told Ed to rewrite the story so the MC is white.

Now, I happen to work with a lot of the local Korean families, and to be honest, I thought that his writing of the MC's family was genuine. If something sounds like a stereotype, it's often because there are people who actually embody it. I knew people who did. It's pretty sad when a writer is called out for depicting reality. It's also really sad when a diversity blogger -- whose community complains constantly about the lack of representation in publishing -- issues a call to arms that simply leads to less diversity.

The book's MC will still be gay. I would have giggled hysterically if she had tried to tell him that his portrayal of a gay character was bigoted and making the LGBT community look bad. But there isn't a single person in the story now who isn't white. Having spoke with Ed about his writing extensively, this seems almost anathema to the way he creates his cast, so GG lady.

I hope he makes it big and gets to share this experience with everyone.

I saw this YA twitter story on r/fantasy, and they all agree it's ridiculous too so I'm comfortable that this uproar is just a loud minority that doesn't represent progressives.

I read a lot of fantasy, and I have noticed what seems to be authors tip-toeing in their writing so as not to upset these types of people. The protagonists almost always think like modern day progressives, even though their fantasy worlds are based on the middle ages or some time in the past. It makes me wonder how many books don't get published because they're not progressive enough. I think R. Scott Bakker and GRRM would have a harder time getting published if they entered the market today (and GRRM is actual a liberal but he can make all types of characters sympathetic, even conservatives).
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EndOfDiscOne posted...

I saw this YA twitter story on r/fantasy, and they all agree it's ridiculous too so I'm comfortable that this uproar is just a loud minority that doesn't represent progressives.

No, but that's the thing. They do represent progressives. They're the ones who actually have a following yelling about this outrage, while people and authors who disagree with all of this refused to allow their names to be used in that article specifically because of the outrage. It's not just a loud minority anymore. This stigma is going to stick with this writer and this book, no matter how many readers support it, because these people with a following will forever try to trash the book, the author, and anyone who doesn't follow their line of thinking.

You can't be comfortable with this because people in this industry aren't even comfortable speaking up because it will ultimately damage their career. That's where we're at now.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

EndOfDiscOne posted...

I saw this YA twitter story on r/fantasy, and they all agree it's ridiculous too so I'm comfortable that this uproar is just a loud minority that doesn't represent progressives.

No, but that's the thing. They do represent progressives. They're the ones who actually have a following yelling about this outrage, while people and authors who disagree with all of this refused to allow their names to be used in that article specifically because of the outrage. It's not just a loud minority anymore. This stigma is going to stick with this writer and this book, no matter how many readers support it, because these people with a following will forever try to trash the book, the author, and anyone who doesn't follow their line of thinking.

You can't be comfortable with this because people in this industry aren't even comfortable speaking up because it will ultimately damage their career. That's where we're at now.

Well I can't disagree with this. I was just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. I talked about this some in Vlado's topic yesterday, how I hate this kind of stuff. These ideas that they're trying to silence aren't radical minority ideas. They're mainstream views that you can't just stomp out and silence, and hope they go away. It's sad that there's such a hostile environment that even moderates can't speak up about what they believe.
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gotta love vocal minorities shouting down people

this actually made me want to vomit a bit

There are books that cross YOUR line in terms of offensive content, sure- avoid them. But at least make sure of the context of the quote and the material... when you start judging books just by their cover and with quotes out of context...a lot of false positives will pop up, and that's a bad thing. And don't just shout down dissenting opinions.
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what a racket. poor Ed.

as for The Black Witch, the drama is undeniably toxic, but I've heard (from a reviewer I trust) that once you ignore all the drama/outrage, it's just a very poorly written book. dull story, two-dimensional conflicts, terrible dialogue, etc.
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And if that's true, avoid it on that note.

( though I have a higher tolerance for schlock, so I probably would try to get through it if only to see how bad it went.)
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Gatarix posted...

it's just a very poorly written book. dull story, two-dimensional conflicts, terrible dialogue, etc.

I mean, it's YA. I figured that much. :P
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

And Ed's story doesn't surprise me at all. This is absolutely not his first publisher, and...

Huh? What do you mean, it's not his first publisher? Ed's never had anything published prior to this forthcoming novel.

Timeline:
Aug 2015: Ed "wins" an online contest called Pitch Wars
Sep 2015: Ed is fought over by agents, and signs with the first guy to appeal to him, who Ed decided was also the best option.
...Dec 2015?: Agent lands Ed a two-book deal with a publishing house.
Mid 2016: This happens.
Sep 2017: Book will be published. (Yes, it takes that long.)

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Here's an interesting question: if the author was a minority writing this book about a girl being a bigot against other mythical creatures and learning to overcome it, would it have been treated like this?

I really don't think so. I believe that instead of railing that quote as being horrible they'd instead be talking about how gritty and real of a metaphor it was.

I don't doubt it. I also don't doubt that the blogger wouldn't have batted an eye at Ed's story if he had published under the name Jung Ho Park.
Mr Lasastryke posted...

this is more proof of my point that self-publishing is the way to go, though!

I have zero interest in attempting self-pub. You have to do everything yourself. All the marketing. All the cover design. All the press materials. All the web design. I mean, sure, you can hire people for some of that, but it's coming directly out of your pocket, and unless you really do well, you're going to end up at a net loss.

Of course, you expect that anyway. Typically, a self pub author doesn't even have a hope of making a profit until they have 6 or 7 books out, and one of them free as a loss leader. You have to be super-committed to self pub to make it work, and that means spending a lot of time on things that aren't actual writing.

Trad pub has it's downsides, too, but that doesn't mean it isn't better for some (and maybe most) writers.
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