Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 115: Pardon the Interruption

(+) Yeah! (+)

O/U Trump family pardons?
---

not spicey enough/10
---

I, for one, am looking forward to a nuclear Iran caused purely by Trump's spite towards Obama:
http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/07/21/trump-assigns-white-house-team-to-target-iran-nuclear-deal-sidelining-state-department/
---

top tier title
---

Well, I mean, which aspect of the story is most interesting is a matter of personal opinion, I think. No problems with you disagreeing on that, but I also don't think there's much to say on it.

FWIW, I think attempting to obstruct/discredit Mueller is the most immediately relevant part, but that the self-pardon angle is extremely interesting long-term.

But I don't see any of that as something with an objective answer.
---

You know, we never brought up the real reason why Trump wants to know if he can pardon himself --



He really wants to test his theory about shooting someone on 5th avenue and not losing any support.
---

that was polled wasn't it
---

Polls are fake news now, but we can use rasmussen sure
---

xp1337 posted...

Well, I mean, which aspect of the story is most interesting is a matter of personal opinion, I think. No problems with you disagreeing on that, but I also don't think there's much to say on it.

i do think there's a lot, lot of room to explore on the idea of a Kushner and Ivanka pardon, way more than the presidential one, though people aren't actually thinking about it beyond "lol resign." even when they're out, investigation wouldn't stop because there's more people to look at. and i'm not even sure if Ivanka is in or out, she's just fucking there. you're way too dismissive of that one - you had two different regulars last topic point out different things they hadn't thought about when it came to pardons. it's not a field explored well and there's a lot of meat there.

but since we're talking about polls, this is a good segway to re-post the last thing regarding trust in trump vs media:

NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist Poll - released July 3rd, 2017, covering June 21-25.
https://tinyurl.com/ybfxxcfa

37% trust Trump vs. 30% trust media. Congress is 29% in this poll.

Politico/Morning Consult poll, July 7-9:
http://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000015d-3324-db11-a3df-fb3da4360000

information being viewed as credible from the white house was 21% very and 31% somewhat. trump himself is 22% and 24%.
CNN - 26%, 28%
Fox - 24%, 31%
MSNBC - 23%, 31%
WaPo - 24%, 32%
NYT - 26%, 31%
WSJ - 26%, 36%
ABC - 28%, 34%
NBC - 27%, 34%
CBS - 27%, 35%
PBS - 29%, 34%


pretty close, though news does generally win, though it's basically within margin of errors.


i mean i'm sure i can find data that heavily skews to media trust but there's a fair number of polls out there that put them either damn close or with Trump ahead. either one of those should terrify you.
---

Well, I mean, obviously the investigation doesn't stop in that case. Who thinks it would? I guess I don't think much of that angle because I think that if a pardon is issued to a family member it starts an inevitable chain that leads to the question of "can a self-pardon actually happen?" And that dwarfs the other legal detail questions in my mind.

But I have no problem admitting that if you don't share my thoughts on that matter you could reach a different conclusion. Nothing wrong with that.
---

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/21/politics/trump-junior-manafort-agree-to-negotiate/index.html

No public spectacle for us :-(
---

Yeah, I saw that. Unsurprising, but disappointing.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/21/politics/trump-junior-manafort-agree-to-negotiate/index.html

No public spectacle for us :-(

Damn :/
---

I was gonna go with "A Sean Sphincter Says 'I quit'"
---

Still getting kushner?
---

As of now he's set for Monday

Maybe this gives him ideas though
---

Sean Spicer is a wonderful person who took tremendous abuse from the Fake News Media - but his future is bright!

And whose fault is that? :thinking:
---

The... fake news?
---

i was going to go with the administration forcing him to try and spin all their mistakes
---

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFSyGWkUQAAjeML?format=jpg&name=large

LOL Trump trying to relate to people
---

boring

I was hoping he would deny spicer was ever his press secretary or something
---

Jakyl25 posted...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFSyGWkUQAAjeML?format=jpg&name=large

LOL Trump trying to relate to people

Wow, and I thought Romney was bad at relating to people.
---

Sean Spicer is apparently a fridge thief:
https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/888539995358715904

Also reupping this because I think it's really scary and has been lost in all of today's news:

LordoftheMorons posted...

I, for one, am looking forward to a nuclear Iran caused purely by Trump's spite towards Obama:
http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/07/21/trump-assigns-white-house-team-to-target-iran-nuclear-deal-sidelining-state-department/

---

oh boy he went on another twitter rant this morning

this one is probably the best though

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/888724194820857857

While all agree the U. S. President has the complete power to pardon, why think of that when only crime so far is LEAKS against us.FAKE NEWS

Sure sounds like someone who recently asked about who he could pardon and how to do it.
---

only crime 'so far', eh
---

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/888726438265966592

This one is hilarious IMO

Yeah, Donald, why isn't the special counsel formed specifically to investigate your campaign looking into Hillary Clinton's emails? How biased of them!

Also jeez he really is trying to get Sessions to quit.
---

He's a fucking infant.
---

LapisLazuli posted...

He's a fucking infant.

Infants have more class.
---

For those curious about the officer caught planting drugs recently by a body cam that records the thirty seconds before hitting record:


https://twitter.com/ItsNessa___/status/888098815928139776

Black men doing 20 years for weed and y'all catch this bastard red-handed with Y'ALL body cam and he only got suspended? Man gone. https://t.co/PdNuy55rxL
---

Peace___Frog posted...

LapisLazuli posted...

He's a fucking infant.

Infants have more class.

And usually parents.
---

HaRRicH posted...

For those curious about the officer caught planting drugs recently by a body cam that records the thirty seconds before hitting record:


https://twitter.com/ItsNessa___/status/888098815928139776

Black men doing 20 years for weed and y'all catch this bastard red-handed with Y'ALL body cam and he only got suspended? Man gone. https://t.co/PdNuy55rxL

Yeah, it's complete garbage that he's getting off so easily. Every single case that any of those 3 officers worked on should be redone. Every single cop that doesn't do that shit should be speaking out against this.
---

...the cases the 3 cops have done ARE being looked at.
do you not know how any of this works? or read anything on it? him getting suspended is the first thing to do as they investigate further. the fact that he got instantly suspended for it is a good sign.
---

in the land of FAKE NEWS, there was this story.
3 days ago an LA Times journo posted this on twitter:

http://archive.is/9AMUV
My friend's husband died of glioblastoma in AZ. They wrote a letter to McCain begging for his help. He advised them to move.

that tweet blew up, got about 11k retweets and 17k+ likes. retweets are the relevant one there.
eventually people tracked down the friend, got more of the story, and it was deleted the next day with an apology.

turns out that the only facts that can be verified are that a) the friend exists, b) the husband did die, and c) it was due to cancer and a fight over health insurance. obviously that's a terrible way to go but the attack on McCain is where the story drops.

there's no proof of this claim, no proof that McCain wrote anything, and it's highly doubtful that he would've since he wouldn't be able to do anything either; he's a federal senator and health insurance is a state issue. as the drama went down, the facebook friend updated with another post, moving it from "McCain" to "his office." but again, there's no proof. so we have an unverified claim that's walked back on something that he wouldn't be able to do anything about, which would've likely been shipped over to people who can (e.g., state officials) as they'd be able to give the best advice. which may well have been "then move." pretty shitty advice to get but not something to fault McCain over. while the individual person can by all means be mad at him, the second a journo covers it that way, it's now a story which you'd better be able to confirm.

as a result, the journo did issue an apology the next day and deleted her tweet. apologized in two tweets with the same comment, at that.

currently those two tweets sit at 23 and 9 RTs respectively and it's been 2 days.
---

Instantly suspended is a good start, but also I would think most jobs would get you instantly fired for setting up someone with drugs. This may be part of the process, but if this doesn't lead to a firing and some charges then it'll be real disappointing.

And good to hear past cases of theirs are getting looked into. They won't turn them all over, but this likely isn't the first time either -- ain't like body cams have been around that long anyway.
---

cops are civil servants and unless the guy's on probation (see: he's a new cop) they literally can't fire him, the most they can do is suspend him as they look into it. charges being put on him would also likely happen before it's possible to fire him. if guilty of a crime, he's out. if not guilty, he may or may not, all depends if he's violated enough rules that they have reason to fire.

if you're wondering "how would he be not guilty?" bear in mind that there's more footage on the camera. some that we've seen does show that they were searching for drugs prior to all of this and it's possible that in those recordings, they found something there. the argument would then be that they were trying to re-create the scene.

a stupid argument i know, but still. just saying there are more facts that we aren't aware of which are being actively looked into. for the immediate case, charges were dismissed either way. so at the least the guy accused isn't in trouble.


for the immediate effect, the main guy is a witness for 53 open cases. he managed to testify for one of those cases after the news broke and it was because the state attorney and prosecutor weren't aware of it. very next day, memo to the judge and i'm not sure where they're at but i'm pretty sure they're effectively going to nullify his testimony. he's probably not going to any of the other ones even if it were possible (which i don't know), he's straight up poison right now. things are moving along and the state is limiting what the three cops can do, especially the one who planted it.
---

Wanglicious posted...

there's no proof of this claim, no proof that McCain wrote anything, and it's highly doubtful that he would've since he wouldn't be able to do anything either; he's a federal senator and health insurance is a state issue.

I think you're severely underselling the influence of a senator here, especially one with as much clout as McCain. He could have done something if the issue actually got to him and he cared -- spoken out about it at least. That said, my assumption was always that it was his office that responded, but his office speaks for him so it's not really a better look.
---

I side with Wang on the drug planting cops. Suspension is the first step.

But we see this time and again.

1) Cop does something bad.
2) Cop get's suspended (because that's the first step).
3) People cry out that cop's never get in trouble.

And then that's it. The story tends to get ignored from there and it just gets tossed into the pile of "times that cops get away with shit". The only time it resurfaces is if down the road it gets reported that the cop was not convicted for whatever it happened to be. But it's seldom reported on or cared about in situations where it goes the other way.


Maybe police departments just need to do a better job clarifying that they are taking their obligatory first step and that it's not the end of the story? Or maybe that should come across more clearly in the articles? Either way it's a problem.
---

Forceful_Dragon posted...

I side with Wang on the drug planting cops. Suspension is the first step.

But we see this time and again.

1) Cop does something bad.
2) Cop get's suspended (because that's the first step).
3) People cry out that cop's never get in trouble.

And then that's it. The story tends to get ignored from there and it just gets tossed into the pile of "times that cops get away with shit". The only time it resurfaces is if down the road it gets reported that the cop was not convicted for whatever it happened to be. But it's seldom reported on or cared about in situations where it goes the other way.


Maybe police departments just need to do a better job clarifying that they are taking their obligatory first step and that it's not the end of the story? Or maybe that should come across more clearly in the articles? Either way it's a problem.

I mean 9 times out of 10 their paid suspension IS the extent of the punishment.

Especially when you see how often "bad cops" have a history of being suspended from different Police Departments, and they just move.

When I lived in Albuquerque, some cops shot a homeless man, and it turned out two of them had been suspended from Police jobs in different cities.
---

Forceful_Dragon posted...

But it's seldom reported on or cared about in situations where it goes the other way.

How often does it ever go the other way?

I'm sure you might find a few cases but I would love to see some
---

i don't know how it is in canada but generally here in the US it's extremely difficult for one to get fired. take the one who killed Castile - they were prepared to A) fire him if guilty, or B) literally pay him to resign if not guilty. and they did, to the tune of just under $50,000. or basically what i assume was a year of pay.

because if not guilty, it's a lot more difficult, if not impossible, to fire him. civil servants have ridiculously good protection. you don't hear many things in the investigation because generally there's two completely separate investigations going on, one by the prosecution, the other by the internal department, and nobody wants to make a public statement until it's done. investigations are slow so unless you can prove wrongdoing of course he'll be paid. just not actually working or doing administrative work instead as that's the best they can do.
---

Forceful_Dragon posted...

I side with Wang on the drug planting cops. Suspension is the first step.

But we see this time and again.

1) Cop does something bad.
2) Cop get's suspended (because that's the first step).
3) People cry out that cop's never get in trouble.

People say cops never get in trouble because this is a slap on the wrist compared to if you did the same thing at like any other job. I think people are aware that you can't just fire cops, they're just not sure why the system is set up like that in a society that ostensibly cares about its justice system.
---

Hoping McCain recovers and eventually heads back to the Senate, but if he does resign I certainly hope AZ Gov. Ducey doesn't appoint this vulture as his replacement:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/07/22/mccains-former-rival-urges-him-to-step-aside-after-diagnosis-and-suggests-she-could-replace-him/
---

LordoftheMorons posted...

Hoping McCain recovers and eventually heads back to the Senate, but if he does resign I certainly hope AZ Gov. Ducey doesn't appoint this vulture as his replacement:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/07/22/mccains-former-rival-urges-him-to-step-aside-after-diagnosis-and-suggests-she-could-replace-him/

Yeah, this lady should shut the fuck up. If she's willing to say this out loud, imagine how she feels behind closed doors.
---

Wanglicious posted...

i don't know how it is in canada but generally here in the US it's extremely difficult for one to get fired. take the one who killed Castile - they were prepared to A) fire him if guilty, or B) literally pay him to resign if not guilty. and they did, to the tune of just under $50,000. or basically what i assume was a year of pay.

because if not guilty, it's a lot more difficult, if not impossible, to fire him. civil servants have ridiculously good protection. you don't hear many things in the investigation because generally there's two completely separate investigations going on, one by the prosecution, the other by the internal department, and nobody wants to make a public statement until it's done. investigations are slow so unless you can prove wrongdoing of course he'll be paid. just not actually working or doing administrative work instead as that's the best they can do.

And im fine with that being the best they can do for now. And hopefully a guilty verdict gets handed down and they can do more.

But what is the alternative? Suppose you have an innocent cop accused of wrongdoing. They have to suspend him pending an investigation (protocol). Are they just supposed to not pay him? Some investigations take a long time. And now a potentially innocent cop can't support himself or his family as a result of unproved accusations?


So yeah, Ill take a system that pays guilty cops while they are waiting to be proven guilty to avoid a world where innocent cops don't get paid while they are waiting to be proven innocent.
---

Jill Stein going on a Trumpian style Twitter rant.

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/261-politics/75593764
---

now see, she's always been on the wrong side of crazy so I'm eager to see what this wildcard brings to the situation
---

something something doth protest too much
---

TheRock1525 posted...

Jill Stein going on a Trumpian style Twitter rant.

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/261-politics/75593764

why is a "doctor" that couldn't even be tasked to shut down anti-vaxxers so quick to call an official investigation a "conspiracy theory"
---

Forceful_Dragon posted...

But what is the alternative? Suppose you have an innocent cop accused of wrongdoing. They have to suspend him pending an investigation (protocol). Are they just supposed to not pay him? Some investigations take a long time. And now a potentially innocent cop can't support himself or his family as a result of unproved accusations?

The alternative is whatever happens to you if you're not a cop and you're caught on tape planting drugs somewhere.

So like, I don't actually know what happens there for certain, but I assume being arrested is the first step. Maybe being fired? That would depend on circumstance, I guess.
---

Stein is pathetic
---