Poll of the Day > Is racial fluidity less legitimate than gender fluidity?

(+) Yeah! (+)

That is, people that feel they belong to another race than their parents and ancestors. Since race definitely is just a social construction this should be easily accepted but for some reason it's seen as a scam by many.
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their are genetic differences (not just looks) between races. it is not just a social construct
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Krazy_Kirby posted...

their are genetic differences (not just looks) between races. it is not just a social construct

wow buddy, racial gender and racial sex are not the same thing. check your privilege
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Smarkil posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

their are genetic differences (not just looks) between races. it is not just a social construct

wow buddy, racial gender and racial sex are not the same thing. check your privilege

can't tell if serious. i hope not since the topic is
talking about race and i said nothing about gender or sex
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I take racial fluidity more seriously than gender fluidity.
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Yes, because cultures are man-made so the whole concept is fake and absurd.
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People like Rachel Dolezal are delusional. Racial fluidity is absolute nonsense. Race isn't just a social construct though.

Gender is performative. While I've seen no evidence of it being "fluid" in the sense of it rapidly changing, transgender and intersex people are legitimate.

Race is not performative. Human "races" are arbitrary categories based mostly on superficial features. Race does not equal culture. Desiring to change your race is nonsense.
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Race and gender fluid.

There you go.
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KroganCharr posted...

Gender is performative. While I've seen no evidence of it being "fluid" in the sense of it rapidly changing, transgender and intersex people are legitimate.

Race is not performative. Human "races" are arbitrary categories based mostly on superficial features. Race does not equal culture. Desiring to change your race is nonsense.

Then why do people with leukemia need donors of the exact same race. Mixed race leukemia patient have the hardest time to find donors, because they need the exact same mix.

Also the whole chopping of your dick to make you another gender is nonsense. In my country you don't even had a word for gender and only a word for sex. Now with all this nonsense they just used gender to promote this Marxist crap.

SomeUsername529 posted...

People like Rachel Dolezal are delusional.

That is my thought on the matter. That whole situation was ... yeesh.
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Baardmeester posted...

In my country you don't even had a word for gender and only a word for sex.

It was same in English until 10 years ago or something. Gender and sex meant the same thing. The way most people use them, they still do.

That's honestly my main issue with the movement. They set f***ing landmines, redefining existent words without telling anyone and then getting furious if you "misuse" them.
Which, all things considered, is a pretty minor issue.
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Lightning Bolt posted...

Baardmeester posted...

In my country you don't even had a word for gender and only a word for sex.

It was same in English until 10 years ago or something. Gender and sex meant the same thing. The way most people use them, they still do.

That's honestly my main issue with the movement. They set f***ing landmines, redefining existent words without telling anyone and then getting furious if you "misuse" them.
Which, all things considered, is a pretty minor issue.

They can still mean the same thing if you are just willing to say fuck those snowflakes I won't do what you tell me.
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Baardmeester posted...

Then why do people with leukemia need donors of the exact same race. Mixed race leukemia patient have the hardest time to find donors, because they need the exact same mix.

This I can't comment on since I never heard of the issue.

Baardmeester posted...

Also the whole chopping of your dick to make you another gender is nonsense.

Transgender doesn't necessarily mean you do that. I think that there is something wrong with people who feel the need to cut off their breast or penis. However, if all you do is change your performance and take some hormons I see nothing wrong with that.

Baardmeester posted...

In my country you don't even had a word for gender and only a word for sex.

Same. So? You don't deny reality because you have no word for it yet.

Baardmeester posted...

Now with all this nonsense they just used gender to promote this Marxist crap.

There is hard science stating otherwise. For the vast majority of people chromosomes determine what sex organs you have - but not all. Plus, there aren't just the XX and XY combinations. Intersex is a thing, and so is gender dysphoria. And for the record, I don't agree with the whole idea of "gender as a class" that the dworkside of feminism is promoting.
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KroganCharr posted...

reality

making a bit of an assumption there. if all a person has to do is generation terminology in order to consider their point of view to be truth we'd end up with crazy sjws making up genders and races and pretending they have animal souls or some shit.

oh wait....
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I believe culture fluidity is a thing, racial, not so much.
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Lightning Bolt posted...

It was same in English until 10 years ago or something. Gender and sex meant the same thing. The way most people use them, they still do.

That's honestly my main issue with the movement. They set f***ing landmines, redefining existent words without telling anyone and then getting furious if you "misuse" them.
Which, all things considered, is a pretty minor issue.

To be fair, they never meant the same thing. Similar enough to be used interchangeably for the most part, but still meant different things. even back in 1919 they had 3 genders.
https://archive.org/stream/con00ciseoxforddicfowlrich#page/344/mode/2up

That said language is always evolving.
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Troll_Police_ posted...

KroganCharr posted...

reality

making a bit of an assumption there. if all a person has to do is generation terminology in order to consider their point of view to be truth we'd end up with crazy sjws making up genders and races and pretending they have animal souls or some shit.

oh wait....

dude what are you talking about
I wasn't defending attack helicopter as a gender or dragonkin
you're strawmaning on steroids
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Gender fluids still sounds really gross.

crinalex posted...

Is racial fluidity less legitimate than gender fluidity?

Neither is legitimate and they are equally crazy. There are physical traits that determine both. These physical traits cannot be altered. Race is a product of genetic deviation resulting from geographical isolation or selective breeding. We don't have the technology to alter the genetics of an individual to that of another race. Anything short of that is merely cosmetic.

The same goes for gender regardless of which usage you mean. An individual is born with the set of sex organs they have. Altering that is mutilation. Or they are influenced by a specific brain chemistry that makes them think differently than is typical for their gender. It's okay to be a non-stereotypical member of ones gender. Problems arise when the focus is on conforming to the stereotypes of the opposite gender.
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I don't even know dude.
All I know is I've never "felt" like a white male my entire life.
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Krazy_Kirby posted...

Smarkil posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

their are genetic differences (not just looks) between races. it is not just a social construct

wow buddy, racial gender and racial sex are not the same thing. check your privilege

can't tell if serious. i hope not since the topic is talking about race and i said nothing about gender or sex

You're missing his point entirely.

Gender as an identity is rooted in the biological nature of a person's sex. While "gender" may be a collection of social constructs we attach to a person (and which may vary by culture), they still, at root, are determined by sex. We see a child born with a penis and immediately begin buying him blue clothes, baseball gloves, and "action figures". Sex creates gender.

Race as an identity is rooted in the biological nature of a person's ethnicity. What we perceive as "race" (which is a somewhat unscientific anachronism) is a collection of social constructs we attach to a person (and which may vary by culture) based mostly on skin-tone and certain prominent physical features. We see someone with "black" skin and immediately label them "black" - and then things like inner cities, rap, slavery, and so on all come attached with that label.

But if the argument is that gender can and should exist completely disconnected from biological sex, then there's no reason why that logic cannot or should not apply to race as well. Gender may be nothing more than a collection of stereotypes and expectations we attach to a person ("You're a girl? Okay, you can wear dresses and wear make-up and play with dolls and get paid 70% of what a man makes."), but most of what we think of as "racial characteristics" are ALSO social constructs we attach to a person.

Or to put it another way, a white suburban teenager dressing in baggy clothes, listening to rap, speaking in broken ebonics, and acting like a hardcore gangsta isn't all that different from if that same boy grew his hair out, put on a dress and high-heels, and started calling himself Melissa.

Moreover, if we accept the premise that is it perfectly acceptable to have radical hormone treatment and surgery to "correct" a person's biological sex to reflect their chosen gender, that would also imply that it should be perfectly acceptable for someone to have radical hormone treatment and surgery to "correct" their biological "race" to reflect their chosen cultural identity. Thus, the suburban white kid from above goes to the doctor and has his skin "dyed" so that his outward skin color matches the proud black man he's been on the inside all along.

(Or, you know, Michael Jackson bleaches himself white and has constant nosejobs to stop being black because he hates his father and doesn't want to be like him in any way.)

And that's before you get into even more complicated questions. If you take the furry and "Otherkin" population on the Internet who swear that they are actually animal souls trapped in human bodies, would it be acceptable for them to have radical surgery that makes them more animal-like (like the "lizard-man" who had his tongue surgically split, his skin tattooed over 90% of his body to look like scales, and wears contacts to change his eyes)?

The idea of divorcing personal self-image from physical reality, being allowed to make radical changes to reinforce that self-image, and then forcing other people to acknowledge your own personal sense of identity as valid opens up a lot of doors most people rarely consider.

If Rachel Dolezal says she's absolutely a black woman on the inside, who are you to say she's wrong?


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I still get gender and sex confused

I know one refers to biology and one refers to how one identifies, but I ALWAYS forget.
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slacker03150 posted...

I believe culture fluidity is a thing, racial, not so much.

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MrMelodramatic posted...

slacker03150 posted...

I believe culture fluidity is a thing, racial, not so much.

So how would you classify things like "black culture" or "Asian culture"?


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like in general? probably use stereotypes that are associated with those cultures. music, food, holidays, social perceptions, etc.

I don't really know enough about black culture or asian culture to give you anything precise, but I'm sure that people who identify with those cultures could tell you, and I'm sure that there are black people that identify with asian culture more than black culture, and visa versa
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I meant more in the sense that, if you "believe culture fluidity is a thing, racial, not so much", then would something like "black culture" count more as "culture" or "race"? Because it includes aspects of both.


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Baardmeester posted...

Then why do people with leukemia need donors of the exact same race. Mixed race leukemia patient have the hardest time to find donors, because they need the exact same mix.

Genetics and the immune system treating unfamiliar matter as a threat. You need to have matches on certain types or rejection is likely. Same with blood... You need an appropriate blood type or bad things happen, but ethnicity does not factor in. It gets more complicated with organs and marrow where genetic markers make the difference between acceptable and rejection.

When it comes to matching human leukocyte antigen (HLA) types, a patient’s ethnic background is important in predicting the likelihood of finding a match. This is because HLA markers used in matching are inherited. Some ethnic groups have more complex tissue types than others. So a person’s best chance of finding a donor may be with someone of the same ethnic background.

Without genetic similarity between the donor and the patient, the new white blood cells will attack the host body. In an organ transplant, the body can reject the organ, but with marrow, the new immune system can reject the whole body.

https://bethematch.org/transplant-basics/matching-patients-with-donors/how-does-a-patients-ethnic-background-affect-matching/

http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1993074,00.html

Your genetic markers have to do with common ancestry and the pool of donors. The fact is that these can vary greatly even in related individuals. And many people of the same race may not have similar family history and don't share genetics needed for a transplant.

To find a marrow match for anyone is hard. Even within one's own family, the chances of finding one are only about 30%. According to the World Donor Marrow Association, while two out of three Caucasians find a match, the chances of a patient from another ethnic background can be as low as one in four. Despite rapid improvements in marrow registries around the world, the global registry is still disproportionately represented by the U.S., U.K. and Germany — all predominantly Caucasian countries. For a multiracial person, the chances are usually even worse. Athena Mari Asklipiadis, the founder of the California-based Mixed Marrow, one of the only outreach groups devoted to recruiting mixed race donors, says "the numbers are quite staggering ... People compare it to winning the lottery."

So I don't know exactly what your point is. There are genetic differences between people in the same race. Everyone has a unique genome. Immune systems reject foreign material and for some particular transplants the matches have to be a lot more exact.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

I meant more in the sense that, if you "believe culture fluidity is a thing, racial, not so much", then would something like "black culture" count more as "culture" or "race"? Because it includes aspects of both.

Counts as culture
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hilarious, ok?
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I think both are silly
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"we see a penis and buy them blue clothes and a baseball glove..."

thats gender roles. gender roles are different than gender.


"gender can and should exist completely separate from biological sex"

no. gender and sex are the same thing. there is more than one definition for the word sex.
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Krazy_Kirby posted...

no. gender and sex are the same thing

you're just factually wrong
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

I meant more in the sense that, if you "believe culture fluidity is a thing, racial, not so much", then would something like "black culture" count more as "culture" or "race"? Because it includes aspects of both.

i challenge you to describe "black culture" without getting moderated
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Troll_Police_ posted...

ParanoidObsessive posted...

I meant more in the sense that, if you "believe culture fluidity is a thing, racial, not so much", then would something like "black culture" count more as "culture" or "race"? Because it includes aspects of both.

i challenge you to describe "black culture" without getting moderated

There are many cultures that emerged from black peoples. I think what you'd have in mind in the context of this topic is the African American subcultures that formed in predominantly black neighborhoods in United States cities. Which I have too little knowledge of to describe. Of course those emerged from the circumstances there, not from skin color.
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KroganCharr posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

no. gender and sex are the same thing

you're just factually wrong

Sex - the act of procreation.
Gender - ones role as defined by the possession of organs involved in the act of procreation.
I agree that they are not the same thing. I disagree about which thing they are.

Muffinz0rz posted...

I know one refers to biology and one refers to how one identifies, but I ALWAYS forget.

Both refer to biology. The only thing that matters in regard to gender is how one would pass on their genes. There's separate, and less confusing, terminology to describe the psychological aspects. Such as sexual orientation to describe what an individual finds attractive and gender identity to describe how an individual perceives them self or how they want to be perceived by others. Neither has anything to do with the passing on of genes, except maybe to make doing so more difficult if these aspects don't match ones anatomy.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

MrMelodramatic posted...

slacker03150 posted...

I believe culture fluidity is a thing, racial, not so much.

So how would you classify things like "black culture" or "Asian culture"?

As racist?
There are 4.3 billion people living in asia. To boil that down to "an asian" culture is absurd. Then you have culture offshoots like asian americans. Once again too numerous groups to quantify one asian american culture.

Same goes for black culture, although not as wide a scale.
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KroganCharr posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

no. gender and sex are the same thing

you're just factually wrong

so where are your facts to prove that?
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Krazy_Kirby posted...

KroganCharr posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

no. gender and sex are the same thing

you're just factually wrong

so where are your facts to prove that?

Normally I would be happy to cite sources but in this case it's too obvious. Please, just get any dictionary and look the terms up.
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I never understood gender roles. So what if you have a different sex organ, being restricted to what you can wear, play with, or act like shouldn't be focused on that. I honestly feel transgenders have multiple barriers to pass through. Getting rid of one barrier, like flippin gender roles, would help this cause a heck of a lot more then convincing them the only way to be happy is to change their sex organ. (I know its more complicated then that) this honestly would solve a lot of issues like boys being comsidered gay. We have tomboys but a tomgirl would be considered terrible. Just things society needs to get passed. Just seems like a silly thing in the big picture. As long as the race can reproduce and no one is getting hurt, no one should really give a shit. Hey i don't really like everythin people do and think some shit is weird as all heck but hey go for it, if it makes you happy do it. Just because i hate tomatoes, doesn't mean i feel tomatoes shouldn't exist. Others enjoy them a lot and i see no reason to rain on tomatoe lovers parade. Basically the way i see it, people have the choice to be whatever they want. If we can gentically splice people to be animals, i be fine as long as it is safe. I think people be flippin weird but hen i want to be a cyborg so, eh.
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KroganCharr posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

KroganCharr posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

no. gender and sex are the same thing

you're just factually wrong

so where are your facts to prove that?

Normally I would be happy to cite sources but in this case it's too obvious. Please, just get any dictionary and look the terms up.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender#medicalDictionary

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sex#medicalDictionary
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Krazy_Kirby posted...

KroganCharr posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

KroganCharr posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

no. gender and sex are the same thing

you're just factually wrong

so where are your facts to prove that?

Normally I would be happy to cite sources but in this case it's too obvious. Please, just get any dictionary and look the terms up.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender#medicalDictionary

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sex#medicalDictionary

You did not specify that you were only talking about the medical version of gender, and even then you get this:

2: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

Associated with sex. Not the same as sex.

Sex is an inherent biological thing. The patterns are the same independently of culture. Gender, on the other hand, is different in different cultural contexts and thus not biological.

Additionally, the term "gender" has uses that don't even describe people. Here's a handy summary video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8S4hMjFTSI
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KroganCharr posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

KroganCharr posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

KroganCharr posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

no. gender and sex are the same thing

you're just factually wrong

so where are your facts to prove that?

Normally I would be happy to cite sources but in this case it's too obvious. Please, just get any dictionary and look the terms up.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender#medicalDictionary

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sex#medicalDictionary

You did not specify that you were only talking about the medical version of gender

see second bold
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You're obviously not interested in respectful dialogue and I won't waste my time building a quote pyrimad without you even acknowledging the information I provide. Good day.
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yutterh posted...

I never understood gender roles. So what if you have a different sex organ, being restricted to what you can wear, play with, or act like shouldn't be focused on that.

Well Some of it is deeply ingrained into our very DNA.

The what to wear thing is not one of these things (at least to my knowledge).

But what to play with actually is. Boys who are young as like 8 months will choose mechanical toys where as girls will choose more social toys such as dolls. These results are consistently repeatable as the norm and were done with children this young to show that they were not influenced by society to be told what to play with.

Theres always some one who has got to say "but I/my brother/sister/cousin didnt like to play with those toys". It should go without saying that theres always the exception but that doesnt disprove the rule.

There are also other roles dedicated to women and roles dedicated to men.
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deoxxys posted...

The what to wear thing is not one of these things (at least to my knowledge).

before horseback riding became the primary means of travel everyone was basically wearing dresses because they are easier to make than pants
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deoxxys posted...

yutterh posted...

I never understood gender roles. So what if you have a different sex organ, being restricted to what you can wear, play with, or act like shouldn't be focused on that.

Well Some of it is deeply ingrained into our very DNA.

The what to wear thing is not one of these things (at least to my knowledge).

But what to play with actually is. Boys who are young as like 8 months will choose mechanical toys where as girls will choose more social toys such as dolls. These results are consistently repeatable as the norm and were done with children this young to show that they were not influenced by society to be told what to play with.

Theres always some one who has got to say "but I/my brother/sister/cousin didnt like to play with those toys". It should go without saying that theres always the exception but that doesnt disprove the rule.

There are also other roles dedicated to women and roles dedicated to men.

Well yeah, that's all well and good. My thing was for those that do go against the norm are ostracized for being different. My thing is that people are forcing it on those that don't want to do the norm. That is where i was going with it. Like woman are natural mothers, which is why they go after dolls. But it doesn't mean you have to force the ones who are against dolls to play with them because "that's what your supposed to do". Like if a little girl want's to play with action figures and make them fight is okay. But a little boy who wants to play house with dolls is considered a queer and no one should play with him. Things like that is what i am talking about.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

Smarkil posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

their are genetic differences (not just looks) between races. it is not just a social construct

wow buddy, racial gender and racial sex are not the same thing. check your privilege

can't tell if serious. i hope not since the topic is talking about race and i said nothing about gender or sex

Stuff

Put my thoughts on this into words. Thanks, PO.
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