Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Agnes Oblige vs. Richter Belmont

(+) Yeah! (+)

yeah, i don't view it as an auto evade like the game because that's too much of a mechanics argument for me, i use it more as an example of what ninjas focus on in that game.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ninja_(Bravely_Default)

evasion counterattack, evasion bonuses, auto-evasion, raising evasion... that's honestly half of the skillset. hell, there's an auto-attack/magic attack buff for each dodge (25%, max 150%) built into the class.

there's some other things, like increased hitting in two moves and dual wield, both basically demanding high reflexes and speed of attack since it's quite literally double hits.

ninjas there are all about being dodge whores first and hitting repeatedly second. pretty direct translation to reflexes and combat awareness against melee/physical attacks to avoid getting hit.
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Like I said I think Agnes has more 'skills' because of RPG but Richter's actual power suite and experience to me makes it clear he can hang.

Like it's tough comparing apples to oranges, and I get that, but I also feel like Richter has encountered death throes attacks before but maybe I am misremembering.
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Agnes's bigger skill set gives her stuff like buffs and healing. Richter needs to outlast an Agnes who is healing on every hit she lands and is buffing as she takes damage. These things are passives that occur because of her skill set, not something she has to actively try to do. Richter is out healed and out buffed here. He's good, but he's not outlasting Agnes without healing.
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What this comes down to for me (and I think it is a good, close match) is that I don't think Agnes has the platforming experience to maneuver around Dracula's castle as easily as Richter can. I think if they were to meet straight up in a generic meadow that might be a little more problematic but an experienced fighter like Richter can control the pace of battle here much easier.


Buffs are nice but healing not so much - she's never really going to have time to heal herself once Richter is on her. Especially when he has AOE stuff like Hydro Storm and Grand Cross. Like yeah in theory it is nice to be able to heal but it isn't as if she's going to have time to free cast. If she sits still to cast she's getting lit up by knives.

You're asking her to be constantly moving as well as casting and that's not how that works.
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She's not casting anything to heal. She has a health drain effect on her sword, which means all physical attacks heal her for as much as she's dealing. As long as she's hitting Richter, she's healing.
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Yeah I don't think getting into melee is going to be that effective for Agnes here and I've already noted that the dark attack with a windup is highly dodgable by someone of Richter's skillset. Literally Castlevania is a game about dodging attacks with that type of windup. I am not even joking there that's a boss mechanic.
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Are you really arguing Agnes is never going to hit Richter? That's absurd. She's good in melee range thanks to all the dodge boosts from Ninja. You're also overstating the windup. He's not going to be able to consistently dodge the AoE of Black Bane, and if he tries it's going to tire him out and make him an easier target for Agnes.
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I don't know about never, I'm not a sith Mewtwo I don't deal in absolutes, okay? I will say though that she won't hit him that that ranged dark spell. I will 100% say that. And I will also say she has 3 classes on her that favor being in melee to do their damage. And in melee I will say Richter is going to have the ranged advantage and the skill/experience advantage.
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Has anyone mentioned that it's a plot point Agnes has zero sense of navigation whatsoever and somehow gets lost in an a location so straightforward it dumbfounds the Plot Fairy? Castlevania would drive her insane.
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Also Black Bane costs 30% of her health, if she spams it she's going to be dead.
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DeathChicken posted...

Has anyone mentioned that it's a plot point Agnes has zero sense of navigation whatsoever and somehow gets lost in an a location so straightforward it dumbfounds the Plot Fairy? Castlevania would drive her insane.

I have not, that's a great point DC.

She's going to be lost and confused by the time they meet up. Probably pissed off. She's not going to exactly be the stoic tactician that she needs to be to beat Richter.q
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@Raka_Putra

Hi there, I just wanted to make sure my arguments didn't sway you since you voted before I said a word. If not that's fine, thanks.
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Richter isn't going to have the skill advantage after Agnes's buffs. And Richter has a whip while Agnes is covered in armor. A whip really isn't the best weapon for fighting an armored foe.
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Also See You In Hell just does 4 times the damage of a normal attack, btw Kanz. I think Richter can survive that long enough for Agnes to die first. It isn't going to literally murder him, maybe prove fatal but then when it is over Agnes is dead.

Also did you really just call the Vampire Killer 'a whip.'

Mewtwo are you really going to be that guy.
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For the record this is a whip that in the lore (not just gameplay) hurts the Grim fucking Reaper.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

For the record this is a whip that in the lore (not just gameplay) hurts the Grim fucking Reaper.

I don't get the context behind this statement. The Grim Reaper is a fictional thing that has no preset durability and by aesthetics alone is just a skeleton in a robe with a scythe in most contemporary media and depictions.

Could you provide some context as to why this is important or a super big feat? Because phrased like this is... well, kind of vague as it's strength,

Hurts those armored knight guys too
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death in CV is kinda shit for an embodiment of death.
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It is Great Grandpa Belmont's dead wife sacrificed and sealed into a whip (really) in order to fight darkness
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Alany posted...

DoomTheGyarados posted...

For the record this is a whip that in the lore (not just gameplay) hurts the Grim fucking Reaper.

I don't get the context behind this statement. The Grim Reaper is a fictional thing that has no preset durability and by aesthetics alone is just a skeleton in a robe with a scythe in most contemporary media and depictions.

Could you provide some context as to why this is important or a super big feat? Because phrased like this is... well, kind of vague as it's strength,

Sure!

Leon from LoI mentions Death's divine powers and notes he is no exception to the whip's ability. Like Death in Castlevania isn't just some skeleton. Basically if nothing else he is tanky as all get out.
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Wanglicious posted...

death in CV is kinda shit for an embodiment of death.

Yeah but Agnes is also no death.
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Also ironically Agnes being a DK is probably a real issue since the whip no likely dark things.
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More importantly that whip is blessed to be super hurtful to the servants of Dracula. That's kinda why it's always been hard to respect the Belmonts as much as Shanoa, Soma and Alucard. It's like respecting FF white mages as combat beasts just because Raise oneshots undead. Countermatchups are a real thing.
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Yeah, it's good for fighting the undead. If Agnes were a vampire it would be bad, but Dark Knight doesn't have a weakness to holy. Does the Vampire Killer have any showings against normal humans?
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long story short, vampire killer is made with a human soul so it could fight dracula and death in the process.

that doesn't actually help much though. the best idea of its power comes in PoR as you get into it as a before and after weapon. it's a nice whip but it IS still a whip. though don't think the armor bit matters, it's used on tankier bosses than her.
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against a normal human... curse of darkness maybe?
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Actually it isn't as if it is made of leather all the time, chain-link whip please.

Also of note it isn't just undead or vampires, but any demonic being. Look I am not saying it is a 100% slam dunk but I don't think the whip's enchantments are going to like the dark magic using girl who sucks health away.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V6WNzOCo0I

See the 'whip' here for details. You were imagining leather.

Admit it
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She's not really demonic either. Alternis, the asterisk holder, is a normal guy. That's not always the case, such as the Vampire asterisk holder actually being a vampire.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Leon from LoI mentions Death's divine powers and notes he is no exception to the whip's ability. Like Death in Castlevania isn't just some skeleton. Basically if nothing else he is tanky as all get out.

Well, okay. But does that mean he can survive a tank shell to the face? Does that mean he's Armstronk? Like, the fluff is cool but as a person who's never played anything in this series I have no idea what the divine powers of the setting are like.

Funny part is *he* isn't even really a vampire. He says as much at one point. "No I just like this aesthetic, it freaks out the rubes."
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Alany posted...

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Leon from LoI mentions Death's divine powers and notes he is no exception to the whip's ability. Like Death in Castlevania isn't just some skeleton. Basically if nothing else he is tanky as all get out.

Well, okay. But does that mean he can survive a tank shell to the face? Does that mean he's Armstronk? Like, the fluff is cool but as a person who's never played anything in this series I have no idea what the divine powers of the setting are like.

Well he does have a noted physical resistance in some games.

Also I'd say he probably...could, actually. Death is tanky as hell.

I hope you aren't arguing Agnes is nearly as tanky as death!
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Basically in the context of Castlevania lore he is Dracula's right hand man, and in terms of how that translates Death just doesn't die quickly.
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it's a whip literally designed to fight beings like death and dracula, though worth noting is that Alucard can still beat the guy so... take that as you will. despite being a dark knight, there's no holy weakness to it so it's not really a relevant point. it ain't getting a magical bonus based on that.

anyway, quick check of curse of darkness does have trevor and hector fight in the usual "test your strength" sort of way. hector's human, trevor's a belmont, hector doesn't seem THAT strong either so there shouldn't be any particular bonus given there. for her it really will be just a strong whip from a superhuman guy.
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how is this match close richter literally stomps

hydro storm literally outranges agnes
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I hope you aren't arguing Agnes is nearly as tanky as death!

No, I'm just trying to get context from you about what the whip does. You've related it to death, so I asked about death's durability and you've been kinda vague so i'm trying to pin it down a little more.

It is hard to pin down durability if you haven't played the games. Death is just a very tanky boss and dracula's right hand man, so from there you can get an approximate.

And more than anything Agnes' armor isn't saving her here which was my main point. It's a chain link whip not a leather one, that shit's going to hurt.
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Now I'm remembering how much of an utter dickwad Richter was to fight in Portrait of Ruin. Fuck that guy
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But yeah like Gravy said Richter wins this one on every level once you go piece by piece. Hydro Storm is an entire screen, in melee Richter is just better, and Castlevania is going to leave Agnes lost and confused.

Agnes' range this fight costs her 30% of her HP and if it misses she 100% cannot spam it at all, and Richter has more range.
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death's durability is difficult to pin down because everything in that series is hard to pin down.
alucard, shanoa, soma - these have beaten death but death is a fairly tanky being. a tank shell is weird to gauge here because all of these do so with certain magical weapons or powers and death's form is fairly uh... well, phantom-like. it'd be easy to see him phase through one but also get wrecked by another.

belmonts do too but they've got the whip designed to do the job so it's not really fair.


anyway, early CoD - Hector vs. Trevor goes in Trevor's way, hector's clearly beaten down and tired though alive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATAlqE0k8qo

doesn't actually show anything but you can see that hector isn't truly injured. that'd be a human, though he went easy on him. ...that said if he were just an undead minion or something it'd just auto-wreck him.
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It is fuzzy like I said but I think we can all agree that Agnes' armor isn't saving her from the chainwhip version of the vampire killer in any way.
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Richter isn't better in melee after Agnes's buffs. And Black Bane has a really good hit rate in game. Even the Ninja doesn't dodge it. He's not going to dodge every single shot of it.
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"hit rate" in an RPG is pretty silly and game mechanicy. I get why you lean on that, because you kind of need to, but it has like a 1.5-2 second wind up which is more than enough for Richter to dodge.

Also with Agnes wandering around the castle lost (this is a plot point) you have 0 way of being sure this fight starts with her buffed.
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She's getting buffed as she getting hurt. Or when she dodges. And it reapplies as she does these things. They won't wear off.

Richter's item crashes force him to stand in place. If he's relying on them he's a pretty easy target to hit.
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how much wandering is she really going to do. more prone to getting frustrated and just stopping.
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It's not even that she's stupid, it's that her entire character is being a mighty good mage, except she also grew up in a convent and never learned basic things like "Find your ass with aid of a map"
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Wanglicious posted...

how much wandering is she really going to do. more prone to getting frustrated and just stopping.

Which would leave her open to Richter coming upon her suddenly.
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Richter

Better at melee and longer reaching attacks

And Agnes is TERRIBLE at direction, so any buffs she uses are extremely likely to wear off before she reaches Richter, and she's not going to know WHEN she's about to reach Richter to reapply them before she's in the same room as him, which is too late. It's also likely to leave her frustrated, so she's not going to be perfectly battle tactic ready.
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How many times do I have to say this? The buffs are applied automatically. They're not going to run out because she'll get further buffed as she takes damage. Unless Richter can kill her without damaging her, she'll get the buffs.
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I'm talking about any buffs before that, which she'd need.

I don't have much respect for buffs that require her taking damage because that seems too little too late against somebody like Richter.
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