Current Events > Why are young men dropping out of society?

(+) Yeah! (+)

thanosibe posted...

WizardPowers posted...

thanosibe posted...

Is marriage really that bad now?

However, about 40 to 50 percent of married couples in the United States divorce. The divorce rate for subsequent marriages is even higher.

That is for 2016. I assume it will only get worse as time goes on.

Divorce in the US, from what I can remember, has always been an issue. And numbers from studies do give an indication of something. But divorces can also be mutual and not vapid. I maybe my fault for miss wording my post; I was more asking is marriage itself that bad? Are there really that many people unhappy in the marriage experience itself, that younger men are feeling that they just don't want to bother with the concept at all?

There's also the fact this stat factors people who are have gotten remarried after a divorce because people who get a divorce are also more likely to get divorced again. Complaining about marriage because of the divorce rate is silly because there's far too many factors and people getting out of bad marriages is a good thing.
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one weird thing I've noticed about BLS data

the labor force participation rate for 16 to 19 year olds has plummeted and it seems mostly unrelated to the great recession

prior to 2000 it was consistently above 50%, but since the dot com bubble burst it has consistently gone down -- right now it's only about 35%
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well its not weird, I just thought it was interesting
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loss of the family structure is the 1st domino to fall
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Tmaster148 posted...

thanosibe posted...

WizardPowers posted...

thanosibe posted...

Is marriage really that bad now?

However, about 40 to 50 percent of married couples in the United States divorce. The divorce rate for subsequent marriages is even higher.

That is for 2016. I assume it will only get worse as time goes on.

Divorce in the US, from what I can remember, has always been an issue. And numbers from studies do give an indication of something. But divorces can also be mutual and not vapid. I maybe my fault for miss wording my post; I was more asking is marriage itself that bad? Are there really that many people unhappy in the marriage experience itself, that younger men are feeling that they just don't want to bother with the concept at all?

There's also the fact this stat factors people who are have gotten remarried after a divorce because people who get a divorce are also more likely to get divorced again. Complaining about marriage because of the divorce rate is silly because there's far too many factors and people getting out of bad marriages is a good thing.

1) Divorce rate is like 90% these days.

2) Marriage is geared towards a woman, and gives her the right to manipulate her husband at the cost of his comfort, his social reputation, and how his children perceive him. A married man's entire existence is reliant on how happy his wife is -- no one cares about him.

3) Divorced men on the other hand, are given free reign to focus on themselves, but only after the court system has taken everything away.

So, untill this changes, men are better off just focusing on themselves. Not by sitting around and doing nothing, but by formulating a relationship with their dreams and ambition. Today, women just get in the way.
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Speaking from personal experience, I find that I just get depressed when real life hits me up. Sure I go out and have fun with my friends, but dating is pretty much nonexistent. I'm not a bad looking person by any means, maybe a 6, 7 tops out of 10, but people expect way too much when it comes to dating.

I don't get much time to go out and have fun as I have too many bills to pay. I was one of the lucky ones to have his family help pay for a mortgage on a house, so I don't have to worry about paying off someone elses mortgage, but even still, I'm working a good 6/7 days a week and when I'm done I just go home and sleep or play the odd video game.

And unfortunately my dating life has been strict to dating websites like POF which is an experience in of itself. The two main women I seem to attract are the ones who have already had kids(which I don't mind, but it usually also has them not taking care of themselves because they can't afford it. Last woman I went out with had broken teeth and rotting teeth), or crazy women(A woman literally asked me to get her pregnant on the 5th date and when I said no she sent me a fairly lengthy message on PoF of how I will never be happy and that I'm scum)

It doesn't help that I don't have a great job even though I've been to college a couple times(but never finished due to having extremely bad attention issues which the professors didn't want to help out with.

But I digress. I myself just find myself a lot happier when I'm sitting at home alone(or with a friend) as stuff like POF and the real world have just about drove me over the edge.

I'm taking a break from POF to get myself back in sorts for a little while, probably 2 years, after I finish up my business course which I'm doing online to keep distractions to a minimum.

I don't think that divorce has anything to do with it, at least not directly

its all about the technology
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Conflict posted...

AlephZero posted...

the average man is unfuckable

the average woman gets blasted by limitless chad dick

R/incel is that way ----->

glad you went there first so you could point him out the way
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JerickoX posted...

1) Divorce rate is like 90% these days.

2) Marriage is geared towards a woman, and gives her the right to manipulate her husband at the cost of his comfort, his social reputation, and how his children perceive him. A married man's entire existence is reliant on how happy his wife is -- no one cares about him.

3) Divorced men on the other hand, are given free reign to focus on themselves, but only after the court system has taken everything away.

So, untill this changes, men are better off just focusing on themselves. Not by sitting around and doing nothing, but by formulating a relationship with their dreams and ambition. Today, women just get in the way.

rofl
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

What is stem?

Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics
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You guys... take a shower, drive to the waterfront, let the breeze flow through your hair... and maybe have a nice hearty bowl of stfu.

Too lazy? Start a topic about puppies then.
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if you knew what the waterfront smelled like in my city, you wouldn't be saying that lol

oh yeah

Conflict posted...

Balrog0 posted...

Im really shy and short and fat

no sympathy for these people who are sad about being alone

the headline to me is that men today are just as happy as they were when they all worked, maybe more so

sadsacks would have been sadsacks before too

Your inability to have empathy and think outside your own personal bubble doesn't really do you any favors

I was mainly being facetious but it's really never been easier to find fulfillment in the dating world so it's not that I lack understanding of the plight some people face, but more that there's really nothing unique about out modern situation that makes it hard for men to succeed

If anything I think the data is showing that for most people the issue in the past has been that there just wasn't anything fun to do that was affordable other than fuckin'

now-a-days men are getting "left behind" largely because we'd rather play vidja

the subset of men who want a relationship but can't find one would have the same problem 20, 30, 40 years ago

imho
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Leanaunfurled posted...

JerickoX posted...

1) Divorce rate is like 90% these days.

2) Marriage is geared towards a woman, and gives her the right to manipulate her husband at the cost of his comfort, his social reputation, and how his children perceive him. A married man's entire existence is reliant on how happy his wife is -- no one cares about him.

3) Divorced men on the other hand, are given free reign to focus on themselves, but only after the court system has taken everything away.

So, untill this changes, men are better off just focusing on themselves. Not by sitting around and doing nothing, but by formulating a relationship with their dreams and ambition. Today, women just get in the way.

rofl

Laughing at the truth? I see. Maybe watching Ellen and posting on Tumblr will help ease the pain.
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ok
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These topics always make me laugh. What industry is poised to grow in the coming years? Healthcare.

Baby boomers are getting old now.

There are SO many careers in medicine that are stable and well paying, and there is a variety of "levels" if you don't want to stay in school forever like a doctor. Physician Assistants make 80-100k/yr and only go to school for 2 years post undergrad. Nursing is an undergraduate program. So many different kinds of technicians like respiratory technicians, surgical technicians, etc have their own specialized programs requiring no college (I believe) or if they do, then it's like a 12-18 month type of program afterwards.

Physical therapy, occupational therapy, you name it. So many different options for different backgrounds and interests. Healthcare is like 10% of all employment. Always ignored in these conversations.

Maybe if CE didn't fixate on like the same three career options, they wouldn't feel like there is a lack of good paying jobs. Admittedly, it does take a bit of a "reality check" that maybe one's career should be something that's both needed and in high demand in society.

It's not always the case, but these discussions often reveal one key point: terminating at the bachelor's level is rarely enough for the majority of real "careers." To expect a "job" out of undergrad if you weren't specifically trained for one is a bit risky. Higher education doesn't always guarantee better stability, but often times, the real careers do require it.
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JerickoX posted...

Laughing at the truth? I see. Maybe watching Ellen and posting on Tumblr will help ease the pain.

No, I'm laughing at extreme bitterness and pessimism with a dose of a hilariously inflated statistics figure.
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Who are these men dropping out of society? Those weird alt-right incels? They don't offer anything to society anyway.

Hmmm, this is an interesting topic. I kinda just want to see where it goes.
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Putting it another way: college is merely the stepping stone if one wants to go to a white collar professional program/school. Otherwise, trade school is probably better.

Stop at the bachelor's level and you're just "undifferentiated" in terms of marketable skill sets. Sure, you can gain that work experience, but that takes years or decades to develop, and is difficult to even get a foot in the door during austere times such as these.

Going to college for the sake of it is a great ideal, but treating it as a means to an end as a job is bad. In economic high points, someone can get away with it. But not right now. To adapt means to necessarily go into a program with specific training in mind (like a lot of careers in the medical field).
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Soviet_Poland posted...

Physical therapy, occupational therapy, you name it. So many different options for different backgrounds and interests. Healthcare is like 10% of all employment. Always ignored in these conversations.

it's not that people ignore it, it's that this topic is about men and male employment, and men do not do care work

people call it "pink collar" work
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/04/upshot/why-men-dont-want-the-jobs-done-mostly-by-women.html?_r=0

Many unemployed men who did manual labor say they can’t take the time and make the effort to train for a new career because they have bills to pay. And they say they chose their original careers because they wanted to build things, not take care of people.

Lawrence Katz, an economist at Harvard, has a term for this: “retrospective wait unemployment,” or “looking for the job you used to have.”

“It’s not a skill mismatch, but an identity mismatch,” he said. “It’s not that they couldn’t become a health worker, it’s that people have backward views of what their identity is.”


Jon Ray, 31, of Inez, Ky., was an electrician at a coal mine until it was shuttered a year ago. He applied unsuccessfully for maintenance and repair jobs, and got a job in manufacturing after enrolling in a program to learn how to operate computerized tools.

Service-sector jobs weren’t an option, he said. “I couldn’t afford to go back to school,” he said. “And I’m used to working with my hands.”

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Leanaunfurled posted...

JerickoX posted...

Laughing at the truth? I see. Maybe watching Ellen and posting on Tumblr will help ease the pain.

No, I'm laughing at extreme bitterness and pessimism with a dose of a hilariously inflated statistics figure.

Are this generation of women really to blame for the amount of anger they garner from men in this thread? I am asking a honest insight into what young women and men go through in the dating and marriage process and I feel like I am getting is a response from Zombie Pelican about how he feels about Nintendo.
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Balrog0 posted...

it's not that people ignore it, it's that this topic is about men and male employment, and men do not do care work

So man up and become a doctor (for those men)? Plenty health jobs aren't majority women though, like respiratory techs, where you're primarily working with your hands. It can be construed "machine like", and if any man is above "care work", they deserve to have their livelihoods be threatened for being such pussies.
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clearaflagrantj posted...

- We can't get jobs even with advanced degrees

- We can't afford houses, rent costs too much

- We see that marriage usually fucks us over, women can (and will) cheat on us and take half of everything

- Children are overexpensive shit factories that destroy your dreams

- Video games are extremely cheap and more fun that paying $22 for two drinks and getting called a creep by ugly THOTs at the bar

It's simple really.

I agree with that except for the video games part. Gaming is an expensive hobby.
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thanosibe posted...

Are this generation of women really to blame for the amount of anger they garner from men in this thread? I am asking a honest insight into what young women and men go through in the dating and marriage process and I feel like I am getting is a response from Zombie Pelican about how he feels about Nintendo.

We're not all innocent lambs, but neither are men. There's a lot of fucked up shit in the legal system concerning marriage, divorce, child custody, and much more that people take advantage of and where innocent people get hurt. Happened around me as a child, but it was my dear daddy doing the damage and not my mother. There's a lot of sexism and double standards for both parties, in different ways, that screw us over. As I said, extreme bitterness and pessimism, especially concerning a group of people like an entire gender, is never the answer and hurts a whole lot fucking more than it helps anything else.

People who run around under their pity party cloud and wailing about how terrible all men or women are get zero shits from me.
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Soviet_Poland posted...

So man up and become a doctor (for those men)? Plenty health jobs aren't majority women those, like respiratory techs, where you're primarily working with your hands. It can be construed "machine like", and if any man is above "care work", they deserve to have their livelihoods be threatened for being such pussies.

it's not about being judgey, I'm just telling you what the reality is

there are a lot of think pieces about how whats holding men back from moving up the economic mobility ladder is that they are stuck thinking about themselves as whatever profession they used to be able to get without an education, rather than the kind of things they can get now, which they see themselves as being above because of a combination of the low pay and the type of work involved

I don't mean to say it like it's a good thing, just pointing out it is a thing
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Soviet_Poland posted...

Balrog0 posted...

it's not that people ignore it, it's that this topic is about men and male employment, and men do not do care work

So man up and become a doctor (for those men)? Plenty health jobs aren't majority women those, like respiratory techs, where you're primarily working with your hands. It can be construed "machine like", and if any man is above "care work", they deserve to have their livelihoods be threatened for being such pussies.

Don't become a doctor trust me
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Leanaunfurled posted...

JerickoX posted...

Laughing at the truth? I see. Maybe watching Ellen and posting on Tumblr will help ease the pain.

No, I'm laughing at extreme bitterness and pessimism with a dose of a hilariously inflated statistics figure.

My point is that it's really high. But, I am anything but bitter. If anything, im choosing to opt out as a pretty attractive dude, fit, and very confident. This is from personal experience with modern women. If you're not 100% healthy, or have a well paying job women automatically assume that there's "something wrong with you." The man can sacrifice everything, but once that douche with the BMW comes along, it's like a flash of lightning, and she's gone. Sometimes not right away, but women tend to betray men when men are happy and satisfied.

Maybe instead you should laugh at your own inability to look at the truth. Then again, you're actually laughing cause I'm right. Now, what are you having for bfast, cuckflakes or cuck-over-easy?
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Balrog0 posted...

Soviet_Poland posted...

So man up and become a doctor (for those men)? Plenty health jobs aren't majority women those, like respiratory techs, where you're primarily working with your hands. It can be construed "machine like", and if any man is above "care work", they deserve to have their livelihoods be threatened for being such pussies.

it's not about being judgey, I'm just telling you what the reality is

there are a lot of think pieces about how whats holding men back from moving up the economic mobility ladder is that they are stuck thinking about themselves as whatever profession they used to be able to get without an education, rather than the kind of things they can get now, which they see themselves as being above because of a combination of the low pay and the type of work involved

I don't mean to say it like it's a good thing, just pointing out it is a thing

Fair enough
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r/incels is hilarious and accurately depicts a segment of CE lmao
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Coffeebeanz posted...

Soviet_Poland posted...

Balrog0 posted...

it's not that people ignore it, it's that this topic is about men and male employment, and men do not do care work

So man up and become a doctor (for those men)? Plenty health jobs aren't majority women those, like respiratory techs, where you're primarily working with your hands. It can be construed "machine like", and if any man is above "care work", they deserve to have their livelihoods be threatened for being such pussies.

Don't become a doctor trust me

I mean in terms of balanced lifestyle and economic factors in play here, a PA sounds like a great gig. It's still a provider, without a lot of the added hassle of being a doctor.

Though that was more in response to balrog's bringing up of the point of some men considering themselves above care work, where at least doctors are still (inappropriately) viewed as a boy's club (so bypasses their excuse for not going into it).

But back to your original point, every time I feel like medicine has kicked my ass, I'm reminded that the grass isn't much greener elsewhere. At least I'll have a minimum of security and livlihood that's nearly guaranteed, where that isn't exactly commonplace anymore.

And the elephant in the room is not to go into internal medicine, but I digress :p
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Asherlee10 posted...

JerickoX posted...

Leanaunfurled posted...

JerickoX posted...

1) Divorce rate is like 90% these days.

2) Marriage is geared towards a woman, and gives her the right to manipulate her husband at the cost of his comfort, his social reputation, and how his children perceive him. A married man's entire existence is reliant on how happy his wife is -- no one cares about him.

3) Divorced men on the other hand, are given free reign to focus on themselves, but only after the court system has taken everything away.

So, untill this changes, men are better off just focusing on themselves. Not by sitting around and doing nothing, but by formulating a relationship with their dreams and ambition. Today, women just get in the way.

rofl

Laughing at the truth? I see. Maybe watching Ellen and posting on Tumblr will help ease the pain.

1. Post a source for your ridiculous stat.
2. You sound like a bitter misogynist.
3. See #2

You simply have a bad attitude with no foundation of evidence to support your narrative.

Well, on a sort of related bit, I do see a lot of women walk around my grocery store not wearing wedding rings but have a kid or two....or three in tow.

Balrog0 posted...

Soviet_Poland posted...

Physical therapy, occupational therapy, you name it. So many different options for different backgrounds and interests. Healthcare is like 10% of all employment. Always ignored in these conversations.

it's not that people ignore it, it's that this topic is about men and male employment, and men do not do care work

people call it "pink collar" work
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/04/upshot/why-men-dont-want-the-jobs-done-mostly-by-women.html?_r=0

Many unemployed men who did manual labor say they can’t take the time and make the effort to train for a new career because they have bills to pay. And they say they chose their original careers because they wanted to build things, not take care of people.

Lawrence Katz, an economist at Harvard, has a term for this: “retrospective wait unemployment,” or “looking for the job you used to have.”

“It’s not a skill mismatch, but an identity mismatch,” he said. “It’s not that they couldn’t become a health worker, it’s that people have backward views of what their identity is.”


Jon Ray, 31, of Inez, Ky., was an electrician at a coal mine until it was shuttered a year ago. He applied unsuccessfully for maintenance and repair jobs, and got a job in manufacturing after enrolling in a program to learn how to operate computerized tools.

Service-sector jobs weren’t an option, he said. “I couldn’t afford to go back to school,” he said. “And I’m used to working with my hands.”

Interesting article. It's true, women have had to deal with joining a male-dominated workforce. I work in IT Analysis, when I started 6 years ago I was the only female in a group of 6. The company has grown and now there are 5 females and 4 men system analysts. Women are taking what used to be men's jobs, so it's only fair if men do the same. Breaking the stereo-type is hard and can be intimidating though.
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Soviet_Poland posted...

Balrog0 posted...

it's not that people ignore it, it's that this topic is about men and male employment, and men do not do care work

So man up and become a doctor (for those men)? Plenty health jobs aren't majority women though, like respiratory techs, where you're primarily working with your hands. It can be construed "machine like", and if any man is above "care work", they deserve to have their livelihoods be threatened for being such pussies.

A man shouldn't persue a career just because. That is a sure fire way to lead into a life of failure, depression, and regret. You sound like someone who's been given opportunities from birth, and are quick to shame other men because too bad for them. You sound like a very snooty, elitist snob who's never had to try. No respect buddy.

Also, most people cannot just "man up" and become a doctor. Medical school is reserved for the rich, spoiled, and gifted. So quit pretending like it's just another profession for people to choose from. Life factors, circumstances, and just general luck play into how a man turns out. Women can supersede all of this by marrying up. Men are stuck with the hand they're given, so they're better off going all in (towards a dream), than playing for scraps (a stable paycheck).

A pussy is someone who chases a paycheck. A man follows his dreams. Doctors, medical personnel, and engineers are some of the weakest, limp beta males on the planet.
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Ivany2008 posted...

Well, on a sort of related bit, I do see a lot of women walk around my grocery store not wearing wedding rings but have a kid or two....or three in tow.

A lot of people have children out of wedlock (it's 2017) and single mothers are more prominent as well.
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Asherlee10 posted...

Ivany2008 posted...

Well, on a sort of related bit, I do see a lot of women walk around my grocery store not wearing wedding rings but have a kid or two....or three in tow.

What is this in reference of?

more or less the quote of Divorce is 90 percent. I don't know if that's actually true, but the amount of single women with kids in tow really does speak numbers.

Ivany2008 posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

Ivany2008 posted...

Well, on a sort of related bit, I do see a lot of women walk around my grocery store not wearing wedding rings but have a kid or two....or three in tow.

What is this in reference of?

more or less the quote of Divorce is 90 percent. I don't know if that's actually true, but the amount of single women with kids in tow really does speak numbers.

Takes two to tango, for every single woman you see with kids there is also a single father.
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The amount of bitter men whining about women in this topic explains so much about the attitudes and ideologies you see on this board. You start to get a good idea of what kind of people you're witnessing.
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Feminism is winning : (
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Ivany2008 posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

Ivany2008 posted...

Well, on a sort of related bit, I do see a lot of women walk around my grocery store not wearing wedding rings but have a kid or two....or three in tow.

What is this in reference of?

more or less the quote of Divorce is 90 percent. I don't know if that's actually true, but the amount of single women with kids in tow really does speak numbers.

I'm still not understanding what you're saying, apologies. The divorce rate is also ~45%, and as I said earlier, statistics show it's been decreasing in recent years. The 90% rate claim is nothing but snort-milk-out-of-your-nose ridiculous.
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JerickoX posted...

FYI anyone quoting the Kinsey Report, that book was written in 1948 (fitting). We're talking about trends that developed at the start of the civil rights era, and are now normative.

the kinsey report is updated every few years

you are 100% wrong
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JerickoX posted...

A man shouldn't persue a career just because. That is a sure fire way to lead into a life of failure, depression, and regret. You sound like someone who's been given opportunities from birth, and are quick to shame other men because too bad for them.

Eh the second part is absolutely false. I was born into a really poor family with an early death, compared to my upper middle class peers that were "groomed" for medicine since birth, I went into it [originally] with noble intentions and had to break through a lot of barriers to get here. I worked full time through college on top of studying to get in while my "richer" peers had their parents pay for all of their living/food/expenses on top of expensive "prep" programs to ensure high success on entrance exams and the like. I basically had to network my way into even being given an opportunity to be looked at as an applicant.

Medicine is kind of a fucked up field in its own regard though, and no one should pursue being a doctor for money alone, because you're absolutely right--they'd be miserable.

But my point wasn't centered around doctors only. Medicine does have "a little bit for everyone" so I'd find it hard pressed someone can't find a small niche inside where they'd at least enjoy it. Like technology/computers? Boom, radiology technician. Play with giant magnets and cool machines all day. There are like a hundred different options, doing a variety of tasks, some with patients, others not.

Basically, following your passion 100% leads people into possibly finding out there really isn't a market for that. People who "chase that paycheck" are equally unhappy. I think a healthy medium is going into the most "realistic" career that you enjoy that is also high demand. It may not be your #1 passion, but it affords you the ability to pursue certain passions as hobbies on the side. As long as you can more than stomach the "negatives" of the field, it's a recipe to balance the life stress of not making any money or the volatility of certain job securities versus pursuing what you want.

Sorry if that came off as snobish. I just want to stress we all grew up in an environment where we were told to chase our dreams, and so we necessarily have a bunch of bitter individuals who refuse to switch now, but complain at their lack of opportunity. I just think it's a bit more mature to compromise on that a little bit, and don't necessarily just pick a career "just because", but pick the best fit possible under these austere circumstances.

If someone wants to be a screenplay writer, it's much smarter to become a contract lawyer and try and work in the performing industry to network your "side work" to make that happen. Barring you weren't given the one in a billion chance to be discovered randomly.
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Twinmold posted...

The amount of bitter men whining about women in this topic explains so much about the attitudes and ideologies you see on this board. You start to get a good idea of what kind of people you're witnessing.

The issue is that you think we're bitter, when were actually speaking from experience. If we were bitter, we'd be trying to find "the one," while whining about how "all the good women are taken." Sound familiar feminists? Yeah. Lol.

You're never butter when you're free.
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JerickoX posted...

Twinmold posted...

The amount of bitter men whining about women in this topic explains so much about the attitudes and ideologies you see on this board. You start to get a good idea of what kind of people you're witnessing.

The issue is that you think we're bitter, when were actually speaking from experience. If we were bitter, we'd be trying to find "the one," while whining about how "all the good women are taken." Sound familiar feminists? Yeah. Lol.

You're never butter when you're free.

Lmfao, you may not be butter but you're bitter af
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Don't date single mothers, they need to stay alone.
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