Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Tira, Kirby and Kazuma Kiryu vs. Crono, Juliet Starling and Geese

(+) Yeah! (+)

i'm more...

Crono > Tira. the weapon difference is good for her but Crono is just a lot faster and frankly better. yeah, the guy is severely lacking in experience, yet he somehow reached a point where he can fight in melee combat at similar levels to the best knight in that universe. he fights off a bunch of robots, giant monsters, etc that would need some serious skill to do. the techniques used say he has skill and speed too so while he's not the most amazing thing in the world, he's much better than just scrappy teenage dude with a sword. the game wouldn't make sense if that was his level and it was enough to help save the world. Tira isn't particularly good at combat so really it just boils down to he'd probably beat her sooner than later, Confuse alone should be a skill that could do it. as for how he'd do in the SC universe, "good," i guess. somewhere in the upper pack as it's a pretty weak universe overall.

Kirby vs. Crono's more interesting. Kirby playing keep away, probably him. i also do think Kirby's got some natural resistance to katana based on his squishiness, though he's also slower. in the end whoever wins doesn't really matter for this, as if Kiryu comes in next Crono dies almost instantly and if Juliet comes in next, Kirby dies almost instantly.

Kiryu vs. Juliet.... if she gets disarmed there's a fair point that she's in trouble. that's a big if, though possible. ...but then Kiryu's got a massive style disadvantage against Geese. and there's fewer scenarios when Kiryu gets to win over the times he loses against one of the two.
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That is the thing yes, Crono doesn't even really need to beat Kirby to send this house of cards tumbling. He just needs to hurt Kirby enough to make Juliet's job easy, which then makes Kiryu's job impossible.
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KJH posted...

Wang, Geese's martial art style gave him a win over Jeff Bogard and two losses to Terry Bogard, a self-trained mixed martial arts striker who incorporates aspects of street fighter and boxing

...man, since when are you the KOF dehype guy. yeah, he lost to Terry. the same Terry who has consistently remained in the second rung of KOF characters, somewhere in between the flame users. you know geese has more wins than that and that geese has employed bullet timers before, most notably Billy Kane who blocked a sniper's bullet with his stick in the ending of KOF '96. this is the same Billy Kane that Terry has no problem with beating, as opposed to when he fights Geese and ends up getting his ass kicked until hero powerup threshold hits.

like... you know this series. you know that the level being dealt with are people who are able to block sniper bullets, a 9mm isn't anything relevant and people dealing with 9mm isn't anything relevant. you need to go way higher than that and while Kiryu does, it's completely dishonest to act like that aspect matters.
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Kirby Geese Howards' better than Geese Howards

Reasoning?
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Somehow lopen actually sold on me on tiea > crono



Unsure if it actually matters though.
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Yeah Wang, I know KOF, Fatal Fury, and Art of Fighting. But I'm pretty sure I know more about Yakuza than you do, which is why I am 100% confident in saying Kiryu is well above any of the Fatal Fury characters. >_>

Kiryu is constantly doing things that are way beyond anything Geese is shown doing. Even when being attacked and cocky in one of 14's endings, he's only being attacked by like 5 people while accompanied by two bodyguards. Kiryu is doing fights where he's taking on 50+ men at the same time by himself multiple times each game, ranging from military-trained Korean mafia, Chinese Triads, the CIA, and every able-bodied man in Japan. He's doing the best drama CD showing of Rugal ten times over, with ease.

Even going off of Billy Kane comparisons with Geese pales to how Kiryu stacks against Majima. Majima's faster than anyone in this fight easily, strong enough to punch through a building's floor by missing a punch against a downed opponent, bullet-dodging reflexes, uses a deadly weapon, and can create shadow clones. Kiryu's fought and beaten Majima multiple times and has never once lost to him, not even been injured from it.
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I'm confident Kiryu could beat Geese. It's him beating both Geese and Juliet that's a little tougher to see.
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Dawg, Crono chopping up the Dragon Tank is more impressive than anything Tira has ever shown. And that was really early in the game, while he still had a crappy sword and not the Dreamseeker with its 90% crit rate on every swing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTqvR0aiMFA&t=3m46s
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Juliet, and it's not remotely close.

Lopen argues better but come on guys.
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It is admittedly a new adventure for me actually going for combat worth rather than ability spam, but yeah, I am firmly convinced Juliet and company smoke this lot. Less so Kiryu (I like him!) but his position is bad

I actually think this would be far more troublesome if he came up first in the lineup. He could have bodied Crono, fought Juliet, and then...well, I would have kind of been in the position my opponent is with hurt Juliet and Geese trying to carry versus Kirby. As is, it's pretty well untenable
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I don't give Tira much respect to do much against Crono. Maybe against a bare knuckle guy where she could make it difficult to get tagged, but in an FMV environment I see her getting relieved of that hula hoop pretty quickly and then Crono just whomps.

Then Crono and Kirby go at it for a while, and I give the pink ball credit enough to finish him off.

Then I think Juliet runs a train on Kirby and Kiryu.

But even if she falls to Kiryu, Geese can clean up so it doesn't even really matter much.
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What.

Tira's hula hoop seems like a really difficult weapon to disarm to me. Like it's two handed which automatically makes it tougher and it's in a weird position relative to her body to wedge your sword in. It'd be a hell of a lot easier to just stab at her.
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I feel like it's easier to disarm than any conventional weaponry just because of how unwieldy it is. I mean, I give her credit for making it work as she does, but it's going to end up on the ground sooner rather than later.
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Actually you'd think her insistence on holding the entire thing to the side of her would lead to her getting hit in the back by Crono's whirlygig attacks
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It's only unwieldy if it appears unwieldy. She clearly handles it fine.

It's always more difficult to disarm a larger two handed weapon by default. Reason being the weapon is heavier and has more grip on it. Crono could potentially do it if the disarm cred came from literally anywhere but Crono has never shown any aptitude for disarming so it's not something any random sword guy could do.

I mean say Crono wins if you want but don't claim Tira can't even hold onto her bloody weapon when there's no evidence she can't
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Well I mean, I surely can when half of Tira's moveset literally consists of hitting herself in the head with her hula hoop. She ain't bright <__<
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Like really the only one who should be argued to be disarmed is Juliet here. Kiryu is the only guy here with legit disarm cred and Juliet's attack style is pretty reckless with openings easily seen for a guy who looks for these things

And if that happens Kiryu potentially has the chainsaw to use against Geese for whatever that's worth.
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Also Tira is probably smarter than most of the cast. Her role in the story is generally a manipulator.

Crazy yes stupid no.
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And yet none of this translates to fighting, unless you consider riding her hula hoop and falling off of it, having a move where she sticks her neck out and goes "Nyah nyah", etc to be smart
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Like half of her strikes have her thrusting one-handed with that thing, just because she holds it with two hands at rest doesn't mean she's deathgripping it at all times.
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I mean in her canon losses it was always the other guy being better. It wasn't 'Tira had the advantage and then she did something dumb.' This narrative you're pushing where she's a joke fighter who always defeats herself is simply one that does not exist in the game. It'd be like trying to claim Crono is some kid with a mop in the beginning of the game and gets no training whatsoever so Tira has to just beat a kid with a bladed mop.

She does weird stuff but it generally confuses the opponent more than it seriously injures her. It's tactical.
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FFDragon posted...

Like half of her strikes have her thrusting one-handed with that thing, just because she holds it with two hands at rest doesn't mean she's deathgripping it at all times.

And so? Crono is going to see those points where she's one handing it despite being a guy who has very little 1v1 experience and generally fighting monsters rather than armed humans. He does this despite showing no disarm cred whatsoever in game and Tira's fighting style being basically random looking to even guys generally fighting in this type of fight.

Get real.
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bada boom realest guy in the room how you doin'?
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Ah yes, that tactical advantage I've heard so much about that involves hitting yourself in the head and leaving yourself completely open
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I'm just saying it's actually hard to disarm someone. It should generally be assumed they're not being disarmed unless there's a good reason for it, and the weapon being something you think is stupid isn't a good reason.

Moreso when their weapon is big
Moreso when their weapon is generally two handed
Moreso when the guy disarming doesn't use a style that seems conducive to disarming or fight humans much at all or disarm anyone ever

It's just a really dumb argument. Arguably worse than the one where DC claimed Kirby would rush in when the running theme in his game is finding weak points or openings and exploiting them

The dehype is just really irritating
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Not me dehyping Tira, it's pretty much anyone who's played her and had to deal with her dumbass moveset <_<
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Also can I say crying dehype is really rich considering I have Crono, the guy who takes on a Lovecraftian planet eating abomination and yet gets constant "Duh hey, no experience, he must suck" >_>
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I think Crono beats Tira, Kirby can beat Crono. The problem comes with Kirby needed to defeat or massively injure Juliet for Kiryu to be able to clean up the rest.
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dc one more shifty eyes and i'm unvoting you
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Habit, my deepest apologies
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You've never heard me say that. I said he's bad in this type of fight because knowing how to fight a lovecraftian monster doesn't automatically make you good in a duel and a lot of Crono's advantages are mitigated in this environment and Tira's accentuated

Also speaking as a Tira main (to the surprise of no one) Tira doing ' dumb moves ' is generally a choice. You do know she won EVO right. She's not unusable just because you're bad.
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GANON1025 posted...

I think Crono beats Tira, Kirby can beat Crono. The problem comes with Kirby needed to defeat or massively injure Juliet for Kiryu to be able to clean up the rest.

I think Kirby only needs to run out starpower and get some basic amount of damage on her for Kiryu to win. If he disarms her chainsaw she has basically nothing, and his gun will be super useful here vs Geese to get some opening damage on him for the edge.
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Really two horrible abominations, since this is the DS version of Crono who would have taken on the Dream Devourer
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Wait, Tira won EVO?

Wait, they used to play SoulCalibur at EVO?!
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Ah, so you are a Tira main and yet are completely ignoring that her moves are *completely random* in whether they hurt you or your opponent. I take it that you're being willfully obtuse then? Great to know.
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Completely random implies that it's like Smash Bros banana slipping and way more frequent than it is. It's not. Hurting yourself is a choice. Having a chance to stun yourself from those hits is a choice. It depends on the moves you use. If you just mash out moves willy nilly yeah you're not going to have a good time.
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Yeah man Samus is such a clutz look at all the tripping she does in brawl.
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Also Evo in Mortal Kombat has been won by Reptile, the biggest story jobber to ever jobber. That argument is pretty crazypants
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I'm not saying Tira winning Evo makes her a better fighter in this fight I'm saying she's not an incompetent goof who randomly damages herself and stuns herself every few seconds because you have no idea how to play her.
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Youre arguing about two totally different things
"her gameplay is so bad and showcases why she's such a joke character - you just end up hurting yourself"

"actually there is a method to the madness of her moveset - some people can even win EVO with her "

"well gameplay doesnt matter because her lore still sucks"
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Well yes, I'm also arguing that Lopen is full of crap, given that moves like her aforementioned head bonk are a straight up random chance of actually changing her personality or making her groan and stand there like a maroon. I would say that even having a move like that in gameplay *probably* translates to Tira just not being very competent at this fighting thing plotwise.
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There are plenty of moves that have a random chance to do things, and plenty that don't. Sometimes swapping personalities and hurting yourself is worth it to maximize damage or pressure on the opponent. It's risk reward not ' why is Tira doing this I didn't ask for this' you asked for it when you did the move.
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I do think I side with Crono over Tira. Tira is specifically not too good at one-on-one fights. She does better when she can manipulate, strike an unknowing target, or group fighting. Her biggest feat is taking out people in Yoshimitsu's clan, which is a big deal... But it's because she used chaos to her advantage. Her weapon is basically meant to ward off several people from multiple sides.

In a one-on-one fight, it has lost to, atleast:
An axe
Nunchucks
A staff
A rapier

Among various other swords. So it doesn't seem hard to avoid/deflect.

HOWEVER... As much as I love Geese, I do not buy him beating Kazuma at all. So right now I'm just trying to decide the middle part of the fight and how weakened Kazuma may be.
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I think even a lightly injured Kiryu can take out Geese. So the question becomes how well Kirby can handle Juliet, and in turn how efficient Kiryu can take her out.
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Not the point. The mere fact that Tira even has a move in which she clocks herself in the head, has a move where she tries to jump on her hula hoop and there's a good chance that physics says "Nope" points to her being crazy enough that it's very likely to get in the way of fighting. Unless you want to argue that Ms. Crazy is going to stick to strictly her safest moveset, in defiance of...absolutely everything about her character.
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No I'm saying she'll use her dangerous high damage moves when it makes a vague amount of sense to do so and not at random like you do while button mashing
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GANON1025 posted...

I think even a lightly injured Kiryu can take out Geese. So the question becomes how well Kirby can handle Juliet, and in turn how efficient Kiryu can take her out.

This is where I'm at, because while I don't buy Tira beating Crono, I do buy her weakening him enough to go down fairly early to Kirby. Tira's a jobber, yes, but she has plot armor of basically being Jobber to the Stars in that almost all of her losses have been to people in the top two tiers, so it's hard to say she's bad-bad.
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is tira the dolph ziggler of soul calibur
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Damn man, that's actually hella underrating Geese, hella underrating Juliet (because with double stats I maintain that in the event of Juliet/Kirby, Kirby goes down so hard it isn't funny), *and* underrating Crono in one swoop
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