Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 97: Trump World Tour 2017

(+) Yeah! (+)

Jakyl25 posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Why isn't obesity treated like gender? It's how a person FEELS right?

Obesity is a medical classification created to diagnose severely overweight people. It has specific guidelines. It isn't "how you feel."

Like having genitalia?

You haven't explained to me why gender is the one thing that's allowed to be fluid.
---

Paratroopa1 posted...

Because every indication seems to suggest that treating people as their preferred gender is just better for everyone involved. At worst it's a delusion that isn't hurting anyone - at best it's not a delusion at all, it's just a common human condition that society hasn't caught up to yet

Right, so you're admitting that it's only different because it's more common?
---

LapisLazuli posted...

You guys are giving him way more credit than he deserves.

He very clearly isn't taking you seriously at all and is just trying to be a little shit about it.

I think attempting to inform is noble, but Seph obviously does not want to be informed.

Even if this is true, someone else may read it and realize something they hadn't considered before.

What made me understand the issue best was when someone took out any qualifiers. They don't believe they are the wrong gender, they ARE the wrong gender.

I am a cisgender man, and I express myself as such based on some of society's guidelines. If, instead, everyone INSISTED I was a woman, from birth to present, how would my life be different?

That got through to me.
---

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Why isn't obesity treated like gender? It's how a person FEELS right?

Obesity is a medical classification created to diagnose severely overweight people. It has specific guidelines. It isn't "how you feel."

Like having genitalia?

You haven't explained to me why gender is the one thing that's allowed to be fluid.

Because its not the 'only' thing like that.

I cant dictate how christian you feel either and despite what some atheists say its not a mental handicap to believe in god.
---

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Why isn't obesity treated like gender? It's how a person FEELS right?

Obesity is a medical classification created to diagnose severely overweight people. It has specific guidelines. It isn't "how you feel."

Like having genitalia?

You haven't explained to me why gender is the one thing that's allowed to be fluid.

speaking of genitalia, how would you react to being relieved of yours? I'm curious because of idea

---

Jakyl25 posted...

LapisLazuli posted...

You guys are giving him way more credit than he deserves.

He very clearly isn't taking you seriously at all and is just trying to be a little shit about it.

I think attempting to inform is noble, but Seph obviously does not want to be informed.

Even if this is true, someone else may read it and realize something they hadn't considered before.

What made me understand the issue best was when someone took out any qualifiers. They don't believe they are the wrong gender, they ARE the wrong gender.

I am a cisgender man, and I express myself as such based on some of society's guidelines. If, instead, everyone INSISTED I was a woman, from birth to present, how would my life be different?

That got through to me.

Understandable. Bouncing off Seph is like one of those afterschool specials, then? I can get behind that.
---

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

Because every indication seems to suggest that treating people as their preferred gender is just better for everyone involved. At worst it's a delusion that isn't hurting anyone - at best it's not a delusion at all, it's just a common human condition that society hasn't caught up to yet

Right, so you're admitting that it's only different because it's more common?

Well I mean to some extent commonality matters though - if we all had invisible friends then we would just be like, cool, let's have invisible friend parties

But it's more like, the fact that it's common is in my opinion the writing on the wall that suggests that transgender is a thing to be adopted and accepted rather than pushed back against. A LOT of people feel that transgender is either what they are or is the right path for them - I think there comes a point where you have to acknowledge that it's not really that abnormal

Sorry guys, I appreciate the attempt but I'm really not convinced. It seems like the only objective line that separates mental illness from social norm is the percentage of people who experience it.

We can go back to Trump talk if you'd like.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

based on some of society's guidelines.

*shrugiemoji*
---

Nelson_Mandela posted...

No. In fact, I believe it's MORE demonstrably true when you think you're a girl but you have a penis than a thin person thinking they're obese.

See, here, after you've already admitted you understood that sex and gender are different concepts, you're still instinctively using genetalia to determine gender.
---

The afterschool special failed.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

No. In fact, I believe it's MORE demonstrably true when you think you're a girl but you have a penis than a thin person thinking they're obese.

See, here, after you've already admitted you understood that sex and gender are different concepts, you're still instinctively using genetalia to determine gender.

If sex and gender are different, then why do people insist on getting surgery? It shouldn't make a difference right?
---

I mean, is being homosexual a mental illness? 'cause I feel totally fine

but I'd probably look like a loon if everyone was constantly trying to matchmake me with women despite the fact that it's just not gonna happen, and I'd probably feel really bad about it and people would wonder what's wrong with me the whole time

I have to imagine this is what being trans feels like

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Sorry guys, I appreciate the attempt but I'm really not convinced. It seems like the only objective line that separates mental illness from social norm is the percentage of people who experience it.

We can go back to Trump talk if you'd like.

In all fairness, I wish I did have mental illness. It would make it much more convenient for me to show you mental illness. I mean seriously. I know exacly where you need to be. I'm just not bored enough D:
---

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

No. In fact, I believe it's MORE demonstrably true when you think you're a girl but you have a penis than a thin person thinking they're obese.

See, here, after you've already admitted you understood that sex and gender are different concepts, you're still instinctively using genetalia to determine gender.

If sex and gender are different, then why do people insist on getting surgery? It shouldn't make a difference right?

In an ideal society without gender it wouldn't. I mean it could be a thing people get to have sex in a way they feel more appropriate but it wouldn't be crucial to mental health.

It is precisely BECAUSE we have tied gender to sex for so long that gender reassignment surgery helps some transgender people so much. And not all transgender people take that step! That doesn't mean they aren't transgender.
---

Things are often considered mental illnesses before they're normalized... see: homosexuality.

This is like an opinion that gets with mixed reactions sometimes but I really wish people didn't treat gender reassignment surgery as the only option sometimes, like even among trans people and people who are very trans-supportive. I think if you wanna be referred to as a girl but also be okay with your dick that's really cool and going all-in with gender reassignment surgery isn't something that people should feel pressured into doing unless that is truly what is right for them. and then if it is ok, the rad thing is that modern medicine lets us fuck around with stuff like this.

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Things are often considered mental illnesses before they're normalized... see: homosexuality.

Well homosexuality at least is an action... Not some belief that others can disprove
---

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

No. In fact, I believe it's MORE demonstrably true when you think you're a girl but you have a penis than a thin person thinking they're obese.

See, here, after you've already admitted you understood that sex and gender are different concepts, you're still instinctively using genetalia to determine gender.

If sex and gender are different, then why do people insist on getting surgery? It shouldn't make a difference right?

Well actually, they don't?

Hell, AKR in another topic just like today said she has no interest in losing her genitals, because she doesn't mind it and it works well for her girlfriend and her.
---

And see, even there I slipped up. It's not called Gender Reassignment Surgery anymore now that we understand things better. It's Sex Reassignment Surgery.

Trans women don't become women when they obtain a vagina and estrogen injections. They always were women, as society portrays them, but were born with a body that was presumed to be male based on genitals and other biological markers

And then obviously same thing for trans men just change the appropriate words
---

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Well homosexuality at least is an action...

do we need to educate you on this one next
---

Nelson_Mandela posted...

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Things are often considered mental illnesses before they're normalized... see: homosexuality.

Well homosexuality at least is an action... Not some belief that others can disprove

Please don't say you think being gay is a choice.
---

Nelson_Mandela posted...

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Things are often considered mental illnesses before they're normalized... see: homosexuality.

Well homosexuality at least is an action... Not some belief that others can disprove

Uhhh, not really.

It's not too far from the same concept as being trans! What makes you gay or straight or bi is not who you sleep with, it's who you're attracted to.
---

What do you guys THINK he thinks?
---

Jakyl25 posted...

And see, even there I slipped up. It's not called Gender Reassignment Surgery anymore now that we understand things better. It's Sex Reassignment Surgery.

Trans women don't become women when they obtain a vagina and estrogen injections. They always were women, as society portrays them, but were born with a body that was presumed to be male based on genitals and other biological markers

And then obviously same thing for trans men just change the appropriate words

okay one thing I admit to hating is how touchy trans-related language is

like, fuckin' whatever on the gender/sex reassignment surgery thing

language is a matter of clarity and expedience not being super fucking accurate about technical shit, it's awful when people confuse actual malice with "not being hip to the exact lingo of the moment"

Also just to be clear I feel that way about language in SPITE of the fact that I agree that 'sex reassignment surgery' should be the right name for it, since you're not reassigning gender

Everybody should keep in mind that shitnuts Sephy completely and actively tossed my post aside and said he would have nothing to do with it, my post being post 91.

None of these shitbag conservative c***s have the balls to completely ignore me. They never have. I have an awesome rapport with several of them, like Ulti and Vlado. I even went to so far at one point as to demand they call me up on my personal line and speak to me on said line on my cellphone and none of them did. pussies. pussies. pussies. pussies.

that being said, I'm having fun and I don't know where I'm going with this but fuck 'em. One way or another, Ulti is still cool. Vlado is still a joke. Sephy is a motherfucking disappointment and I'm really displeased about that and MWC is still banned unless someone really fucked up royally and let his worthless ass back.
---

Physical attraction is subjective and on a spectrum. I've yet to hear a reasoned argument that gender is anything but binary (I'm referring to people who don't have genetic disorders)
---

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

p******. p******. p******. p******.

Transphobe
---

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Physical attraction is subjective and on a spectrum. I've yet to hear a reasoned argument that gender is anything but binary (I'm referring to people who don't have genetic disorders)

I could point you to some cultures that have 3 genders but still only two different sets of genitals
---

Well "masculine" to "feminine" is pretty clearly a spectrum or at least a really wide array of options - this is the part where I wish just being a feminine male or a masculine female was just a thing that people could do and it's no big fucking deal, but it's not, so...

Paratroopa1 posted...

okay one thing I admit to hating is how touchy trans-related language is

I think part of the issue is that English just SUCKS at this stuff, an issue which will presumably get better over time.

Like I'm writing my master's thesis right now on cross-dressing women/trans men/maybe some other entirely different conception of gender in the 1800s American west, and like, how do I even refer to the people I'm studying? There's no respectful way to do it that isn't insanely clunky or super vague. Imagine a hundred pages of me trying to avoid assigning gender to the people I talk about while also talking about their goddamn gender(s). It's maddening.
---

Let me maybe try a different tactic

Gender is INVENTED.

Can you imagine a world where your gender is just what roles and appearance you want to have in society and has nothing to do with your genitals?
---

Nelson_Mandela posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

p******. p******. p******. p******.

Transphobe

nice censorhip way to hate on the 1st ammendment, shitnuts...
---

Jakyl25 posted...

Let me maybe try a different tactic

Gender is INVENTED.

Can you imagine a world where your gender is just what roles and appearance you want to have in society and has nothing to do with your genitals?

But why are we accepting your axiom that gender is invented? Just because less than 1% of people do not subscribe to those gender norms?
---

Anyway sorry for posting that video

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Let me maybe try a different tactic

Gender is INVENTED.

Can you imagine a world where your gender is just what roles and appearance you want to have in society and has nothing to do with your genitals?

But why are we accepting your axiom that gender is invented? Just because less than 1% of people do not ascribe to gender norms?

Because gender norms change. They vary from culture to culture. There's nothing inherent about them to our species. A hundred years ago pink was the masculine color and blue the feminine. It's memetic, cultural marketing en masse.
---

JonThePenguin posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Let me maybe try a different tactic

Gender is INVENTED.

Can you imagine a world where your gender is just what roles and appearance you want to have in society and has nothing to do with your genitals?

But why are we accepting your axiom that gender is invented? Just because less than 1% of people do not ascribe to gender norms?

Because gender norms change. They vary from culture to culture. There's nothing inherent about them to our species. A hundred years ago pink was the masculine color and blue the feminine. It's memetic, cultural marketing en masse.

So then there is nothing inherently wrong with refusing to accept transgendered people as "socially acceptable"? If it's all on the whim of society...
---

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Let me maybe try a different tactic

Gender is INVENTED.

Can you imagine a world where your gender is just what roles and appearance you want to have in society and has nothing to do with your genitals?

But why are we accepting your axiom that gender is invented? Just because less than 1% of people do not subscribe to those gender norms?

We established earlier that gender norms aren't grounded in anything biological, I thought.
---

also because there isn't and never has been exactly one notion of what being "male" or being "female" is. not even biologically! I mean 'has penis' or 'has vagina' is fairly simple but that isn't the end of it, like men have different hormone levels and shit, we're not all wired exactly the same way mentally or something

Nelson_Mandela posted...

So then there is nothing inherently wrong with refusing to accept transgendered people as "socially acceptable"? If it's all on the whim of society...

I can't even begin to follow your logic here.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Let me maybe try a different tactic

Gender is INVENTED.

Can you imagine a world where your gender is just what roles and appearance you want to have in society and has nothing to do with your genitals?

But why are we accepting your axiom that gender is invented? Just because less than 1% of people do not subscribe to those gender norms?

We established earlier that gender norms aren't grounded in anything biological, I thought.

Gender norms in the sense of dress, interests, etc. sure. A woman can be a woman if she dresses like a cowboy.

I'm just not convinced that a woman can be a woman if she has a penis.
---

UltimaterializerX posted...

By God, therefore there are only two genders because he designed it that way.

You call God a "he." Why? Is it because He identifies that way, or is it because you think God literally has a penis and two X chromosomes?
---

Nelson_Mandela posted...

I'm just not convinced that a woman can be a woman if she has a penis.

Why does that really matter though, most of us wear pants

Paratroopa1 posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

I'm just not convinced that a woman can be a woman if she has a penis.

Why does that really matter though, most of us wear pants

She's the BEST kinda woman if she has MY penis, amirite?! Up top!
---

Jakyl25 posted...

UltimaterializerX posted...

By God, therefore there are only two genders because he designed it that way.

You call God a "he." Why? Is it because He identifies that way, or is it because you think God literally has a penis and two X chromosomes?

A) this is the best counterargument i've ever seen

but B)

Kenri posted...

what do you want me to do, use conservative debate tactics and say god told me or something?

wow look how ahead of the curve I was!!
---

UltimaterializerX posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

also because there isn't and never has been exactly one notion of what being "male" or being "female" is. not even biologically!

I am so glad the real world doesn't buy into this junk and mostly just makes fun of it. Imagine actually thinking being a boy or girl isn't defined anywhere.

But leftist local and state governments ARE forcing this notion unto people.

Listen, I get it that some of you really believe this stuff. But pushing it this hard and this fast is only going to hurt everyone in the long run. Keep government out of it until society adopts your philosophy, if ever.
---