Board 8 > Freedom, Liberty, Ron Paul - The Topic [Tom Woods] [Bob Murphy] [Adam Kokesh]

(+) Yeah! (+)

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_foolmo_
'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram

xfd, now THIS is a yard sign



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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

SmartMuffin posted...

xfd, now THIS is a yard sign

That guy is my hero

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Ron Paul 2012 - Restore America Now

So, I just finished reading "The Big Short" by Michael Lewis. It was pretty good. I was expecting a "bash the rich" sort of takedown of the evil, greedy, capitalists who made millions "betting against the American people," but he didn't really go that way too much. Instead, it was a much more realistic character study of some of the main guys who were out there saying "Hey, this is all a bunch of fraud and it's going to collapse," and nobody listened to them.

Well, he covers SOME of them at least.

Peter Schiff isn't mentioned. The Austrian Business Cycle Theory isn't mentioned. Ultimately, the narrative is still that incompetence and greed on the part of wall street caused the bubble and the collapse. Ben Bernanke is mentioned a couple times, but doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves for this whole thing. The government's role in all of it is largely ignored.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

I see it as natural, as no one's fault. To get rapid growth, we need activities that naturally produce big recessions. The only way to make sure big recessions do not happen is to get rid of our periods of rapid growth.

The final trigger for any recessions may always be incompetence and greed- somewhere, whether it's Wall Street or Washington- but if you set up a chain of dominoes and leave them in a busy intersection, someone is going to tip them over. It's inevitable. The real root of this recession and every recessions is our system of capitalism, the system that has also produced all our wonderful growth that has made us the most prosperous country on earth.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

I see it as natural, as no one's fault. To get rapid growth, we need activities that naturally produce big recessions. The only way to make sure big recessions do not happen is to get rid of our periods of rapid growth.

To clarify, would you say that the rapid growth is "natural and no one's fault."

It's like the Kenyes and Hayek battle rap video. Go out and get drunk and party all night and OF COURSE you're going to wake up hung over the next morning. But that doesn't mean a hangover is "natural and nobody's fault." You could just avoid the drinking!



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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Rapid growth is capitalism's fault. But no individual person's. Nor is it the government's.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

Rapid growth is capitalism's fault.

Rapid =/ unsustainable.

Pretty much every bubble in history can be traced back to some sort of central authority meddling in the free market.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Saw a Gary Johnson bumper sticker with a Reason.com bumper sticker also. This guy was hardcore.

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_foolmo_
'he says listen to my story this maybe are last chance' - ertyu quoting Tidus

From: SmartMuffin | #156

This is godlike

This too

Put down the wrenches the economy's organic!

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_foolmo_
'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram

Rapid =/ unsustainable.

Pretty much every bubble in history can be traced back to some sort of central authority meddling in the free market.

I disagree. If you want to put it that way, every boom period in history can also be traced to the actions of some central authority. Rapid growth is and MUST be unsustainable in the SHORT RUN, but it is sustainable in the LONG RUN. Our economy grows by averaging out good times and bad, with booms taking us up further than drawdowns bring us down. That is the nature of capitalism.

Another way to think about it is that we are paying for long-term growth with short-term risk. You can't get something for nothing, and for something as great as long-term growth, we are paying the comparatively modest price of short-term risk. Government interference may of course make our overall EV worse, but it is not the main cause of recessions.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

--
Genesis does what Nintendon't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8

TomNook7 posted...

needs more Gary Johnson

Seconded, he has my vote.

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One Piece: Pirates with style!
-= Metal Gear Solid: Tactical Espionage Action =-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/virgil-goode-campaign-could-be-a-spoiler-for-romney-in-virginia/2012/07/14/gJQAqjPxkW_story.html?hpid=z4

Never heard of this guy even though he is my district, but he seems cool

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_foolmo_
'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram

bump

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

http://www.balanceourbudget.com/

join it

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Genesis does what Nintendon't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8

Well even a broken clock is right twice a day!



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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

So, I'm curious... does Obama's "whatever you achieved isn't because of you, it's because of stuff other people did" logic apply to HIM? Like, when his supporters are reviewing his accomplishments as President, can we safely dismiss them as things he didn't actually achieve, but rather the product of the collective efforts of all of the Communists who came before him?

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Considering he basically didn't achieve anything......

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

Is there a video of that full speech?

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_foolmo_
'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram

So, I'm curious... does Obama's "whatever you achieved isn't because of you, it's because of stuff other people did" logic apply to HIM?

Contrary to your belief, leftists, including Obama, don't actually deny the existence of talent or believe success is 100% the result of stuff other people did. What we do deny, however, is your belief that success of a person is always 100% the result of the achievements of that person and that circumstances have nothing to do with it.

From: red sox 777 | #170

Considering he basically didn't achieve anything......

One of my commie friends posted this on Facebook. I only got a few lines in before my brain exploded.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/05/29/a-long-list-of-president-obamas-accomplishments-with-citations/

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

I hope red sox' "he didn't achieve anything" comment was a bad attempt at a joke.

From: Mr Lasastryke | #172

So, I'm curious... does Obama's "whatever you achieved isn't because of you, it's because of stuff other people did" logic apply to HIM?

Contrary to your belief, leftists, including Obama, don't actually deny the existence of talent or believe success is 100% the result of stuff other people did. What we do deny, however, is your belief that success of a person is always 100% the result of the achievements of that person and that circumstances have nothing to do with it.

"If you've got a business, you didn't build that, somebody else made that happen."

That's an exact quote.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

"If you've got a business, you didn't build that, somebody else made that happen."

Got to see the context in which that quote was said before I can judge it.

The context is what I was saying. The same tired lefty argument that Elizabeth Warren got smacked down for introducing a few months back. That individuals don't get any credit for their accomplishments because "society" provided them the framework to succeed.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

From: SmartMuffin | #173

One of my commie friends posted this on Facebook. I only got a few lines in before my brain exploded.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/05/29/a-long-list-of-president-obamas-accomplishments-with-citations/

Almost every single one these things are bad

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_foolmo_
'I love you so much' - SineNomine

When leftists claim that our outcomes are shaped more by our circumstances than our choices, they are probably right. But that doesn't address the question of what the best policy is for the future, which is the most important question we have. We want a policy that makes everyone as well off as possible, not a policy that tries (and invariably fails) to reward people who are "deserving."

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

From: Mr Lasastryke | #176

"If you've got a business, you didn't build that, somebody else made that happen."

Got to see the context in which that quote was said before I can judge it.

That quote is actually taken out of context, as "that" is referring to infrastructure. But his remarks preceding that are basically "you can't take any credit for your successes, so pay more taxes please."

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Mr Caffeine? He was awesome. - Ayuyu

red sox 777 posted...

When leftists claim that our outcomes are shaped more by our circumstances than our choices, they are probably right. But that doesn't address the question of what the best policy is for the future, which is the most important question we have. We want a policy that makes everyone as well off as possible, not a policy that tries (and invariably fails) to reward people who are "deserving."

10/10

--
Genesis does what Nintendon't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8

That quote is actually taken out of context, as "that" is referring to infrastructure

No it isn't. I heard the whole passage on TV this morning.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

If he means government is responsible for success, that's obviously wrong. If he means circumstances beyond our control, he's right.

--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

From: SmartMuffin | #182

That quote is actually taken out of context, as "that" is referring to infrastructure

No it isn't. I heard the whole passage on TV this morning.

Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/jul/18/context-obamas-you-didnt-build-comment/

Tell me he's not talking about the "roads and bridges" here and I'll say you're full of s***.

If you heard it differently on TV, then maybe they edited the clip!

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SuperNiceDog? More like GuruNiceDog.

Well that's just a terrible use of English then. When you're going to use a pronoun like "that" it should be in use to what you were JUST talking about, which in this case was "a business."

Example:

KingBartz is a smelly and annoying loser. He's also a pretty nice guy, but I don't really mean that.

If your first assumption is that what I don't really mean is that you're a smelly and annoying loser, you're doing it wrong.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

That's not even that bad of a quote. The worst is how he was using the Internet as an example of government making something useful, when privatization is what turned it from a fancy mail system between colleges to the most versatile and important tool in all of history. The Internet is the ultimate expression of the free market, and proves that it can work globally without government involvement. Even amidst all this controversy surrounding the potential censorship of the Internet by governments, he uses this example.

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_foolmo_
'now dey gotta surfer' - Andrealee Crespo (http://soundcloud.com/deygottasurferautotune)

foolm0ron posted...

That's not even that bad of a quote. The worst is how he was using the Internet as an example of government making something useful, when privatization is what turned it from a fancy mail system between colleges to the most versatile and important tool in all of history. The Internet is the ultimate expression of the free market, and proves that it can work globally without government involvement. Even amidst all this controversy surrounding the potential censorship of the Internet by governments, he uses this example.

I think his point is that the the backbone of the internet was literally invented by the government. They provided the canvas that all those private interests who came later painted upon.

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From his looks Magus is Macho Man Randy Savage as an anime zombie. The black wind howls, and one of you will snap into a Slim Jim ooh yeeeah! -sonicblastpunch

SmartMuffin posted...

XFD

--
Genesis does what Nintendon't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8

From: redrocket | #188

I think his point is that the the backbone of the internet was literally invented by the government. They provided the canvas that all those private interests who came later painted upon.

I realize that, but it's a really shallow way of looking at the Internet and at technology. Would the Internet never have been created if not for the government?

It's easy to say in hindsight, that without the government it never would have been done, and I'm sure that's true for a lot of things like the interstate highway system, but it's not true for the Internet.

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_foolmo_
'You are obviously intelligent and insightful' - Sir Chris about me

From: SmartMuffin | #185

Well that's just a terrible use of English then. When you're going to use a pronoun like "that" it should be in use to what you were JUST talking about, which in this case was "a business."

Example:

KingBartz is a smelly and annoying loser. He's also a pretty nice guy, but I don't really mean that.

If your first assumption is that what I don't really mean is that you're a smelly and annoying loser, you're doing it wrong.

That sentence structure isn't even the same as or similar to what Obama used.

But you can go ahead thinking whatever you want. I mean it is funny to take people's quotes out of context.

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http://img.imgcake.com/nio/bokbokbokpngur.png
Mr Caffeine? He was awesome. - Ayuyu

Also it was terrible that the message of his speech was that if you are successful, you just got lucky. That you aren't smarter or more talented than anyone else just because you are successful.

Maybe I am too young, but all my life I have noticed that I have been successful simply by virtue of the fact that I am smarter than my peers. My brothers grew up in the exact same circumstances as me, obviously, but why have I been exponentially more successful than them at every point in my life? The only explanation is that I am smarter.

But the hidden message here is one that permeates throughout our entire big government society right now - that if you're poor and unsuccessful, you're gonna stay that way. If you're not successful because you are smarter, but instead because of circumstances, what does that say about the unsuccessful people? That they should give up trying to be unsuccessful because they can't match the rich guy's circumstances? That no matter how smart they are, the best they can hope for is the rich guy paying more taxes so that you get more handouts?

The message SHOULD be that if you're smarter and more hard-working, yes, you can be successful, no matter your circumstances. That is the American Dream, isn't it?

--
_foolmo_
'now dey gotta surfer' - Andrealee Crespo (http://soundcloud.com/deygottasurferautotune)

From: foolm0ron | #192

The message SHOULD be that if you're smarter and more hard-working, yes, you can be successful, no matter your circumstances. That is the American Dream, isn't it?

Was, probably. The new American Dream is complain/sue/sit around/protest until you get what you want.

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http://img.imgcake.com/nio/bokbokbokpngur.png
Mr Caffeine? He was awesome. - Ayuyu

heh

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_foolmo_
'It's easy to get yourself in trouble if you start quoting people who don't like you in your signature' - Mods

From my friend/mentor David:

Don't ever let statists - even Dear Leader - tell you that government created or invented the Internet. The government paid a private company (Rand Corporation) to create a packet switching network. The government then used this "creation of government" as a compliment to its weapons systems. In other words, the government viewed the Internet as a tool to help them kill more efficiently. And even with all of the contributions to the eventual DARPAnet - both public and private - the government still couldn't figure out a damn useful thing to do with it. Then it released this technology and you see what the market did with it. The government creates nothing but destruction. The government didn't create the Internet. We did. The market did.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

http://academy.mises.org/courses/anarcho-capitalism/

omg this is gonna be so awesome

Six weeks of Bob Murphy giving the answers to all the classic lefty defenses of the state and attacks on libertarianism. Epic.

After taking this class, you will realize that the Founders who called government a “necessary evil” were only half right. Freaking awesome.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/

Anyone who thinks that the "American Dream" (for whatever the **** that even means) is "if you work hard you'll be rich" is a ****ing idiot who doesn't understand economics AT ALL.

Working "hard" (there's a specific and quantifiable term if I've ever seen one!) is irrelevant, and I can't imagine that Americans historically believed that would be enough for wealth. That's an effort-based measurement. It's the equivalent of a participation trophy. How hard you work doesn't matter, what matters is how much benefit you can provide to your fellow man. THAT is what determines your salary in a free market.

No wonder the lazy and incompetent are so drawn to socialism. It's the only way they can get their participation trophy.

If more people understood that, things would be so much better. But I hope you realize it doesn't really square with your following statement about helping people who admit things were their own fault and not the product of circumstance. That's more in line with the hard work -> wealth line of thinking.

--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

I state right now for the record, that I will help ANY person in need who comes to me and is willing to sign a sworn statement that they are in need solely because of their own faults and shortcomings and not due to "society or "bad luck" or any other such thing..

And after thinking about it, I probably lean the other way. I'd be much more willing to help someone who I thought had run into hard times because of what I feel is bad luck. There is a big return to helping such people, because they are likely to turn my investment into success (even though I won't get any money back as it is a gift, I still get happiness from seeing them succeed).

Example: Someone who lost their money on a interesting but unsuccessful business venture is someone I might be interested in helping. Someone who lost their money buying iphones for everyone in their extended family is not.

--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

Also it was terrible that the message of his speech was that if you are successful, you just got lucky. That you aren't smarter or more talented than anyone else just because you are successful.

Maybe I am too young, but all my life I have noticed that I have been successful simply by virtue of the fact that I am smarter than my peers. My brothers grew up in the exact same circumstances as me, obviously, but why have I been exponentially more successful than them at every point in my life? The only explanation is that I am smarter.

But the hidden message here is one that permeates throughout our entire big government society right now - that if you're poor and unsuccessful, you're gonna stay that way. If you're not successful because you are smarter, but instead because of circumstances, what does that say about the unsuccessful people? That they should give up trying to be unsuccessful because they can't match the rich guy's circumstances? That no matter how smart they are, the best they can hope for is the rich guy paying more taxes so that you get more handouts?

The message SHOULD be that if you're smarter and more hard-working, yes, you can be successful, no matter your circumstances. That is the American Dream, isn't it?

Maybe that's what the message should be, but it's not our reality. Statistically, the thing that best predicts your wealth is.....your parents' wealth. Sure, we've got plenty of exceptions (see Barack Obama vs. his brother in Kenya), but it correlates far better than anything else- at least that we can measure.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.

And as for measuring luck, it's actually quantifiable. Here's an example. Suppose I'm a card counter in blackjack with an expected profit of $10 per hour. I go to a casino and win $300 in 3 hours. I "earned" $30 and I had $270 of good luck. The next night, I lose $200 in 5 hours. I earned $50 and had $250 of bad luck. Luck here is the difference between your mathematical average result and your actual result.

--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
your 7 time champion, Link.